Program Bashing/Negativity
I hope I'm not being too picky here but there seems be a general negative tone here on the blog that I don't think is useful. I don't want to pick an internet fight and I hope this brings up constructive discussion.
I love Hoke for a number of reasons but I think we all can agree that Hoke failed in relative expectations with on the field performance, wins and losses, etc. and it's OK to discuss those facts, but the constant bashing of Hoke and yearning for glory days is a bit overdone lately. I didn't frequent this blog after the RR years but can't we restrain ourselves from lobbing so many negative comments towards people who tried and cared about representing UM well? Note that I'm not advocating that we eliminate talking about our history and discussing facts or even opinions about those facts and that's what makes this blog so great.
I'm not sure if you folks have played on athletic teams that despite good effort, failed to play up to internal and external expectations, or if you've played for a coach you loved but things didn't work out, or if you personally have played poorly relative to personal expectations, but by and large, that is what happened under the RR and Hoke years. Some of my favorite players have come from this era of relative underperformance on the field. That recognition doesn't come from Ws and Ls but from how they conduct themselves as humans. I applaud Vincent Smith's recent efforts in the community and I hope it succeeds mightily. There other examples just like Vincent. It seems though that for some folks here, the Ws and Ls are preeminent when it comes to assigning value to a human being. Isn't sports more than Ws and Ls? Is it merely my team from my area is better than your team from your area?
I hope Harbaugh brings us back to where we once were but more than that, I hope he does it the right way with the right players. I don't want to be Alabama. I want to be Michigan. That's more than tribalism but it stands for something of integrity. I can desire victories, acknowledge that Hoke And RR failed in some areas, and yet not lob needless criticisms towards each of them and perhaps indirectly to the players that played under them. I am very thankful for this blog and what it represents, let's have more of it.
[ED:BiSB - fixed the formatting. You're on your own with the content]
March 17th, 2015 at 11:07 AM ^
I apologize for the formatting. It looked good on my phone.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:09 AM ^
I have had the same issue.
March 17th, 2015 at 12:11 PM ^
that on your phone? The most I will write on my phone is "lol" or maybe "lmao" if I feel up to it.
we won 3 national championships and Sam McGuffie won 4 heismans.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:08 AM ^
Lacking in organization and some readership, IMO. I agree, although I don't see a ton of negativity, but more of a strong support of where we are now. There are a few out there who like to bash RR and Hoke, but truth be told I think both did their best. RR was the wrong fit, Hoke was in over his head, ELMO. (Enough already, Lets Move On).
March 17th, 2015 at 11:10 AM ^
Why would it not be EALMO?
March 17th, 2015 at 11:12 AM ^
Cuz I don't have the right accent to pronounce it that way.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:54 AM ^
RR wasn't the "wrong fit," any more than Bo was the "wrong fit" when he was hired. RR needed the ex-coach to show the kind of class and support that Bump Elliott showed when Bo was hired. Instead, he was sabotaged by people who put their egos ahead of the University of Michigan. It cost us all seven years of hell.
RR didn't fail Michigan; Michigan failed RR.
Luckily, Michigan has hired one of the few people in the profession that nobody has the balls to cross.
March 17th, 2015 at 12:00 PM ^
but this is somewhat of an exercise in semantics. One of the big reasons, imo, that he was the wrong fit at the time is that he didn't get the support he should have because he didn't fit the mold of what some were looking for in a coach. At the time of his hiring, I was like..."Uhh, ooohhhkayyy, I hope this works out."
Your point though, notwithstanding, is that he should have regardless of that mold and after reading Three and Out, I couldn't agree with you more.
However, the style of his football, at that time, in the Big Ten...just wasn't the right fit. Now, that's simply my opinion after watching years and years of Big Ten football. You can tell me I'm full of shit and I'm okay with that. (Queue the responses....) But that is probably another discussion for another day.
However, the style of his football, at that time, in the Big Ten...just wasn't the right fit. Now, that's simply my opinion after watching years and years of Big Ten football. You can tell me I'm full of shit and I'm okay with that.
youre full of shit. when he finally moved past threat / sheridan, they actually scored enough points to win most games. if youre discussing offensive style, then bullshit
We did score points, but we were pushed around...by our rivals and others. I'm just not on board with your point of view. I just had that feeling that the wheels were going to come off at any time. I didn't like it one bit.
Rich Rod's offense was fools gold. Their stats were padded by putting up a ton of points against the dregs of the Big Ten and whatever Baby Seal U they scheduled non-conference.
Against real defenses his offense was a joke.
His offense improved every year. Replacing Hart, Henne, Long, Manningham, Arrington, Kraus and Boren (not to mention Massey and Moundros) wasn't easy. RR never had a second year starter at QB. By 2011 he had finally put together his offense. We saw the results.
Not really. We beat up on teams with crappy defenses that year still. Iowa and MSU shut us down and so did Virginia Tech for the most part. It was almost a miracle that we won that game.
I'm pretty sure RR wouldn't have played Denard under center against Iowa (as Borges and Hoke did) or tried to beat MSU by passing in a windstorm (as Borges and Hoke did). Borges clearly didn't know how to use Denard, as shown by having him play entire games against cupcakes.
March 17th, 2015 at 12:24 PM ^
It was the wrong fit, whether it's the way you interpret it (100% being on the previous staff) or a more balanced look at things. Whether the fault lies one way or another, ultimately, it was the wrong fit.
Now, I'd say the issues were multi-faceted. Rich Rod could have certainly been helped by getting greater support, he also could have certainly done a lot to help him gain that support. But he came in, blew everything up, said "don't let the door hit you on the way out" to the old staff, and then won 3 games. There was some overt and a lot of veiled criticisms of the previous staff. I'm not saying that a lot of it wasn't warrented, things needed to change, but he didn't help himself either.
I think it's time people take a more rational look at everything that happened, both with Rich Rod and with Hoke. Ultimately, both failed, in some ways for similar reasons and in many ways for different reasons. That sucks. I wanted both to succeed. Many, I feel, wanted Michigan to succeed despite the coach (both for Rich Rod and for Hoke). Obviously, the more powerful people inside the Michigan program worked more against Rich Rod, but there was certainly a Rich Rod support group that had ill-feelings toward Hoke, and when things started going down hill, made sure to give the snowball several extra pushes just in case.
Luckily, I think everyone is on the same page with Harbaugh. I think we can put it behind us. I think we saw tons of ill-will toward Rich Rod, particularly outside this blog where Rich Rod was very much supported (though that wasn't always the case). I disagree with those that say we didn't see ill-will toward Hoke on this blog except for a few trolls, I think we see plenty of it and see it daily still. It's not to the degree it was toward the end of his tenure, but people still feel the need to tack on unrelated criticisms and stabs at the old staff (not just Hoke, but Borges, and Nussmeier, and Funk, and all of them). They failed, we get it, but we don't need tangential at best attacks for the sake of hating the previous staff that failed, because then it gets into tiresome back-and-forths that revolve around how much blame we can put on everyone but the current coach, and the hyperbole comes out, and it's not productive.
I agree with the OP that we can move on from Hoke, and from Rich Rod, and from Lloyd Carr, without having to bash someone needlessly because bringing someone else down somehow elevates our feelings for the current guy.
Our feelings toward Harbaugh don't need to be made respective of previous coaches; Harbaugh can stand on his own in high regard.
many of the hoke criticisms (at least on my end) are a matter of context. when discussing harbaugh and his organizational structure and daily operation, it helps to use a comparison - and the most obvious comparison (due to timing, proximity, access, etc) remains hoke and his staff
I'm done trying to think his style of football would have worked here.
We were physically dominated by MSU, OSU, and Wisconsin. I know you don't like to remember the bad Tater, but the bottom line is we frequently got down by two plus touchdowns and that wasn't the fault of the defense. The offense couldn't move the ball. Yes we frequently made comebacks as well, but most of the time they fell short. And making comebacks every week isn't ideal.
You will never convince me that RR and his offense would be able to go toe to toe with Urban Meyer and his.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:10 AM ^
What kind of straw man is this?
Outside of obvious trolls I don't think anyone on MGoBlog is suggesting that Brady Hoke is a bad person, or that he didn't care a lot and try really hard. He did fuck up real, real bad in the Shane Morris concussion situation but the feeling tends to be that it was incompetence rather than heartlessness or malice that led to that. Similarly, I feel like most regular readers of this blog have a fairly nuanced (Bacon-infused) view of RR's tenure. He failed, and Hoke failed, and the reasons are many in both cases. And nobody's bashing player effort or character outside of obvious examples of shitty behavior (Gibbons and Lewan) and sort-of-understandable mailing it in (Funchess).
It's odd that you'd bring up Vincent Smith as a person worthy of defending in the face of unfair criticism. I'd say that he's one of the most popular former non-star players on this blog.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:20 AM ^
This.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:27 AM ^
I could not agree with this post more. What prompted this thread? Where do you see ANYONE doing anything but heaping compliments and praise on Vincent Smith? Where have you seen anyone doing anything but being unhappy with the results under Hoke but supportive of him as a person? And even RR, our tragic hero, is missed by some (not so much post Harbaugh) and his success this year at Arizona was celebrated, not criticized.
I dont see program bashing or negativity except from a few, isolated and easily identified trolls who just do it for fun for some reason. I dont agree at all with your premise.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:32 AM ^
Bacon-infused...
March 17th, 2015 at 11:42 AM ^
...we lost him.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:49 AM ^
Glad I'm not the only one who salivates every time someone mentions John U's last name.
Are there a bunch of Bacons running around? I mean, I get "John L. Smith" (love and miss him), but I don't know any other Bacons.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:36 AM ^
March 17th, 2015 at 11:37 AM ^
Comments like "Oh yeah, well if HOKE had had a meeting like this, it would be for pizza and doughnuts" which got upvoted a bunch of times, or "Well Hoke would NEVER have the sense to do that in practice" despite the fact that we don't know what the hell they did in practice.
Just small bashings, snide comments. They're unnecessary, and that's what I think this whole post is about.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:42 AM ^
"Comments like "Oh yeah, well if HOKE had had a meeting like this, it would be for pizza and doughnuts" which got upvoted a bunch of times, or "Well Hoke would NEVER have the sense to do that in practice" despite the fact that we don't know what the hell they did in practice."
Please provide the link to anything remotely similar to those two statements. I call bullshit to both - I'm on this site a LOT (way too much probably) and Ive never seen anything even close to a Hoke eating or Hoke stupid (both of which your straw men imply) get met by anything but resounding no votes, not approval.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:56 AM ^
Agreed, and honestly I feel like bashing Hoke's practice, um, practices is fair game because the team sucked under him. I don't need to have been on the team during his tenure to know that they were underprepared for many, many games.
While I can't speak to the Hoke/Practice one, I do remember seeing the "Pizza and doughnuts" line in a comment within the last week or so. No idea where, but I did see it. Not sure if it got upvoted or downvoted.
Don't remember the thread,not looking it up because I have problems with th search here.
I can't address down votes; I usually stay logged out.
http://mgoblog.com/mgoboard/harbaugh-spending-every-minute-practice-fie…
It was at two upvotes and no downvotes when I first saw it - guess that's changed.
Yes, I made the second one up.
I've seen a shit ton of "What a dipshit" comments (making fun of his umms and welllls), a meme that Hoke's staff had NO ability to develop talent (literally NO ability), and even ZERO ability to identify talent. The level of vitriol is out of line. As Hackett said, Hoke mastered some aspects of the job but ultimately, he didn't do the job. There's a strain in this thread that assumes this guy failed, bitterly failed, in every aspect. That's wrong.
I don't see quitting on the team "sort - of - understandable" in any way. Any time you are on the field, you play your ass off and try to make a difference, even if you are frustrated.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:15 AM ^
we're all going to die,
and it will be a generally unpleasant experince.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:17 AM ^
March 17th, 2015 at 11:21 AM ^
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March 17th, 2015 at 11:21 AM ^
It doesn't mean you are a shitty person if you are a bad coach (or athletic director).
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March 17th, 2015 at 11:23 AM ^
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March 17th, 2015 at 11:30 AM ^
who starts threads similar to this one about other posters he is upset about....
March 17th, 2015 at 11:28 AM ^
Noting the difference in philosophies between Hoke and Harbaugh is not Hoke bashing.
I would argue that the general tone around here isn't negative about Hoke. We've moved on maturely. I like Hoke as a person. He just wasn't the right coach.
Without the comparison, it is actually difficult to talk about what Harbaugh is doing now. For example, players note in interviews that practices are "long." Everyone on the board wonders what this could possibly mean, given NCAA regulations for practice time.
Then we find out from further interviews that the entire time allotted for Spring practice is now used on the field, rather than a portion of it being used in the classroom. Given uninspiring results from classroom practices, we all anxiously anticipate on-field improvements from "class on grass."
Everything that Harbaugh does that is 'interesting," or "unique," or "genius" or "crazy" is so only in comparison to what went before--namely, under Hoke. To talk about Harbaugh is is to talk about Hoke. The subtext is that what went on before didn't turn out well; therefore any changes are viewed with anxious anticipation and hope for a better outcome this time.
If comparing that difference in philosophies is painful, then it is painful only because results from the former philosophy were uninspiring. And if that hurts the feelings of certain persons on the Internet, it may be time to get a thicker Internet skin.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:41 AM ^
"It seems though that for some folks here, the Ws and Ls are preeminent when it comes to assigning value to a human being"
A few people go over the line, or did so in the past anyway, but some of us make harmless jokes about a guy we've never met or talked to and who we knew because he was the football coach at Michigan. My only relationship with Brady Hoke is knowing him as the coach of the team I root for, so that's why when I talk about Hoke, I talk about his coaching tenure here and not heartwarming stories about having Christmas dinner at his home. I'm sorry he's not my father, because as we were reminded daily, usually ending with "but", he's just such an amazing guy. I don't know how you're construing jokes about, say, the poor development of QBs under Hoke to conclude people making those jokes think of Hoke as a worthless human being.
I see your join date is just this last December, but we must've had a million discussions already about saying negative things about Hoke. Be glad you weren't here when he was still the coach. There were a lot of genuinely nasty things said then. But unless you're referring to recent comments I haven't seen, there's nothing I can recall lately that takes it too far.
March 17th, 2015 at 11:42 AM ^