Pistons get James wiseman, give away saddiq bey
in a very complex 5 team trade pistons get wiseman and lose bey. Not sure how I feel about this trade. If we get a healthy wiseman this could be a great steal.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:14 PM ^
Did we get any picks? If not, don’t like this deal at all.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:15 PM ^
Nope. Also traded away Kevin Knox to make the deal work financially. Knox was no great loss but he was another young asset.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:30 PM ^
I like the idea of trading a guy who we weren't going to resign for a young heavy upside player. But that player being a big man is a head scratcher. I don't see how you can give a healthy Wiseman and Duren enough minutes to properly develop them. That's not even considering Beef Stew & Bagley.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:52 PM ^
Trying to find a guy amongst a bunch of top 5 lotto guys with high ceilings…and all they had to do was trade a dude who hit his ceiling his first year. Pistons might ass (intended) well try to find a dude. Go Bulls, who did nothing but decide to provide fans with a sequel of aging Three Amigos.
February 9th, 2023 at 7:05 PM ^
This. I don't know if Bey will be worth what he'll command when he hits free agency, so why not take the flyer on a former top 5 pick who's 21 years old in one last tank year?
Worst case scenario, he's an expiring contract. Best case scenario, some actual playing time progresses him into something resembling the potential that made him the #2 pick.
One of Stew/Bagley will probably end up getting moved before this team actually reaches its expected window anyway and are both better off playing the 4. Even in the best case scenarios, this team is still a couple years away, so I wouldn't be worried about a crowded front court right now for a team that is still playing in a punted season.
February 9th, 2023 at 8:08 PM ^
A top 5 pick in the draft doesn't mean shit when its the 2020 draft class which absolutely is one of the worst in recent memory. Best option coming out of that draft was Haliburton @ #12 based on WAR.
Looking at you Killian Hayes @ #7. BUST.
Speaking of 2020, I like Bey, but he is streaky and his D is a liability. At #19 he's not the bust that Hayes is for sure. Hopefully Weaver knows what he is doing here, Wiseman to me is an oddity and has not had an opportunity to develop.
February 9th, 2023 at 8:15 PM ^
"Wiseman to me is an oddity and has not had an opportunity to develop."
Yeah, that's kind of the point. Team is still in a tank. He's either going to develop into something or turns into more cap space than Bey would have.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:29 PM ^
I dont know, I starting to get Stan Van Gundy vibes rn. Probable the worst GM in DET sports the past 30 years.
February 9th, 2023 at 7:01 PM ^
No one tops Millen. Randy Smith and Avilia are battling hard for second
February 9th, 2023 at 7:07 PM ^
Anyone who suggests there was a worse GM than Matt Millen in the past 30 years has not been paying attention. At all.
Now, there have been some real screw ups like Al Avila, SVG, Bob Quinn, Randy Smith. But however clueless those four were they don’t sniff the top of the mountain of shit that was Millen’s tenure.
February 9th, 2023 at 7:33 PM ^
He whooped Joe Louis' ass
February 9th, 2023 at 7:43 PM ^
I see what you did there. Take my point. Most people will not get this or where it came from. I visited Zamuda once.. lol
February 9th, 2023 at 8:12 PM ^
Joe Louis was 75 years old when they fought.
February 9th, 2023 at 8:12 PM ^
Naw Quinn got Millen beat
February 9th, 2023 at 9:04 PM ^
Millen had a seven year run that ended with an 0-16 season. That is beyond epically bad. It is beyond Bob Quinn bad, though that is quite an “accomplishment.” Arguably the worst GM tenure in American sports history.
February 9th, 2023 at 11:05 PM ^
Bob Quinn didn’t have enough time to get the Lions to 0-16/17. BQ took a playoff team and dismantled it. If he was still in Detroit the Lions would be the first overall pick this year. Dan Campbell wouldn’t be the coach and would have very likely went 0-17 last year. Millen just had more time than Quinn.
February 10th, 2023 at 9:49 AM ^
Matt Millen had 8 drafts from 2001 to 2008 and despite picking in the top 10 six out of eight times, he only picked three pro bowlers (Calvin Johnson, Shaun Rogers, Roy Williams).
Bob Quinn had 5 drafts from 2016 to 2020, picking in the top 10 two out of five times, managed to draft five pro bowlers (Jamal Agnew, Kenny Golladay, Frank Ragnow, TJ Hockenson, Jonah Jackson). Also worth noting that Quinn's more recent guys haven't had the chance to play out their full careers and develop to pro bowl level.
February 10th, 2023 at 4:37 AM ^
And yet as bad as Millen was (and he was abysmal), he's not where the blame lies. That honor falls upon the stunning mediocrity who hired him, who thought, "Hey, this ex-player and ex-broadcaster has never had any experience running a multi-million-dollar sports team. Let's give him the keys to mine!"
Bill Ford was by all accounts a nice guy who is still spoken well of by his former employees. But Dear Jesus, that man had absolutely no idea how to hire talented people. Matt Millen is the ridiculously unqualified proof of that.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:21 PM ^
Stewart, Duren, Wiseman…hmmm.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:26 PM ^
...Bagley, Noel. 40% of the roster is now made up of centers or power forwards who struggle outside of 15 feet. Yikes.
February 9th, 2023 at 7:07 PM ^
This team is still tanking.
February 9th, 2023 at 9:26 PM ^
Noel is likely to be bought out sooner rather than later, but still seems like a log jam.
February 10th, 2023 at 11:41 AM ^
Stewart plays mostly the 4. Probly exclusively the 4 after the trade, unless someone gets hurt.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:22 PM ^
As a fairweather Hawks fan who doesn't know anything about Bey, what are your thoughts on him? Seems like a decent scorer, at least.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:26 PM ^
Solid 3 and D wing. Good catch and shoot player offensively but hasn't really developed anything past that since his rookie year. Should fit in well on the Hawks who won't ask for too much out of him and be a positive player.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:37 PM ^
This is probably the most aggressively positive version of Saddiq Bey.
He's a "solid 3 and D wing" if you're looking for a 35% from 3 shooter, with a defensive rating of 119 (for reference that makes him like the 25th best SF in the league). So, kinda? But he doesn't really do either all that great.
Basically Saddiq averages 14 and 4 as a wing. Started 30 of 52 games. And gets about 28 minutes a night on one of the league's worst teams.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:46 PM ^
"3&D" in the same way Caleb Houstan was "3&D" for Michigan last year. When the threes go in, it looks nice. When they don't, there's no 3 or D.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:00 PM ^
The 25th best SF in the league isnt bad compensation for a few 2nd round picks though. Hawks gave away nothing really. I believe he is closer to a 40% shooter on 3's in catch and shoot situations. Pistons kept trying, rightfully, to get more out of Bey then just park him in the corner all game, every offensive possession. Thats probably what the Hawks will do and probably the best thing for Saddiq as well.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:17 PM ^
Haha it's ok to root for your dude. I was just trying to give Andrew a little stat-based counter to what I think was a pretty "sunny side up" description of Bey. Whether you want to blame Bey, Casey or the guys around him, we can all agree he hasn't broken through.
I agree that Bey would be better if he would stand in the corner and be PJ Tucker ... but I dont think he's that guy. He wants to do all that other stuff and that's why he's 35% from 3 on 7 attempts a game. I also agree that the Hawks didn't give up a lot, but 5 2nds isn't nothing. Some teams just treat it like it's nothing.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:05 PM ^
Bey is something like 55% in catch and shoot 3s. He's not a 35% guy if used correctly. And he's pretty damn clutch. If I have a problem with him, it's that his defense needs work. But you can say that about every guy on the roster.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:31 PM ^
Aside for his turnstile version of defense, the dude steps out of bounds at what feels like disproportionate rate among players of his type. I'm happy he's no longer in a Pistons uniform if just to get that particular turnover off the team.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:43 PM ^
As a more plugged-in Hawks fan who’s been looking into Bey, I think you’re maybe being a tad harsh but definitely agree with some of your conclusions about his play/role. 35-36% from 3 with the volume that Bey has is good in the NBA, nothing to be ashamed of. But you’re on the mark when you push back on the “D” part of “3 and D”. He’s pretty terrible defensively. He’s also very much a plus-rebounder for his size. All together he’s a solid 3/4 hybrid who brings plus-shooting and valuable rebounding. Plus we don’t want to playing Deandre Hunter at the 4 anymore; that’s an abject disaster. The price the hawks paid for Bey is also a little steep imo, 2nd round picks aren’t nothing. However the Hawks owner is a notorious cheapskate who loves selling 2nd round draft picks for pocket cash. So if the hawks are gonna use 2nd round picks like this instead, im ok with it.
February 9th, 2023 at 7:30 PM ^
Yeah, this was my general read on Bey as well. He'd probably be more efficient on a better team because he's pretty good as a spot up shooter, which will work in Atlanta with Young and Murray driving the action. And yeah, he can't be a worse shooter than Hunter. We'll see about the defense; on really bad teams I always wonder about defensive metrics because at some point players are sorta flailing and it can be hard figuring out who messed up when multiple things go wrong. He's not a good defender but he's a big enough guy he can get in front of people and body them up. That's something.
The sheer number of second round picks being thrown out this trade season is comical. They are valuable and honestly I wonder if we're going to see some teams regret giving up a pick that winds up 35-36 in a solid draft and someone else getting a steal.
February 10th, 2023 at 12:11 AM ^
I don't think he'll ever be a key piece on a good team. He's a chucker who doesn't do much else
February 9th, 2023 at 5:38 PM ^
No matter how you cut it, this deal is likely a shit sandwich for Detroit, which traded a solid young player for a totally unproven, injury-prone and frankly unimpressive one. Should have held on to Bey and let him play it out over the next year, see if you could get something better for him later.
Of Weaver's 3 big picks a few years ago -- Hayes, Bey, Stewart -- only Stewart appears to be a player the Pistons value.
February 9th, 2023 at 5:47 PM ^
Wiseman will start, lol. (Per Marc Spears)
February 9th, 2023 at 5:58 PM ^
I was once very optimistic when Weaver started this rebuild; it looked like all the right buttons were being pushed.
Now, I'm not too sure. I can't quite figure out what the identity of this team is. Are they trying to be guard-dominant? Cade's a really good PG, and Ivey has the potential to be great, but after that? Hayes, Burks, Diallo? Bojan is having a career year, but you can't hook the future of a team to a 33-year-old guard that has typically been a second or third option on good teams.
The bigs? Yuck. Stewart, Bagley? Duren's going to be good, but he has a lot of development left.
I think Weaver's future is in the hands of the lottery. If he can get either Wembanyama or Henderson, they might be able to look ahead. There is a MASSIVE drop after the top two.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:03 PM ^
I really wonder what the Pistons look like if they end up drafting Scoot Henderson. Our "big 3" would all be ball dominant guards. Do you try Cade on the wing? Ivey off the bench? Or do you look to flip one of them.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:39 PM ^
Scoot's a pure PG. He's gotta run the 1.
I think you can let him handle the rock, Cade can be a secondary ball-handler but be a primary scorer, and then Ivey can play the 3/bench.
If Cade can stay healthy, that would be an absolute dynamite backcourt. But, the bigs are still going to be awful.
February 9th, 2023 at 10:03 PM ^
I'd like to see Cade on the wing anyways. Too many turnovers to be a full time pg.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:40 PM ^
Honestly, I was thinking about this last night and the answers are complicated and simple. First of all, this team doesn't have any amazing assets. People want awesome trades to happen, but we have no proven assets, outside of maybe Stew and Burks. Cade, Ivey, Duren, and to an extent Livers are largely unproven. They have potential, but who knows.
I think if you get a chance to draft Scoot, then Weaver jumps at it. We don't really have a true point guard and that is where every great team begins and ends. Cade needs to mostly not be a primary ball handler. It's unclear to me what their vision of for Ivey is. Right now, his stats compared to R. Westbrook at the same point in his career are scarily similar. He could become that, but ???
Our bigs stink for the modern NBA. None can really shoot, except for Stew, and he's very undersized and he has a hard time guarding agile bigs. Duren might develop, but ???
Again, this team is sorely lacking proven talent. Bey had reached a point where we kind of know what he'll be. And the big X factor is Weaver's vision. Maybe Bey just didn't fit it. Actually, it's likely he didn't fit it. Hopefully we get to see what that vision is, but it's going to take time. This rebuild is early and will be extended.
February 9th, 2023 at 6:50 PM ^
To your last paragraph- that is what scares me the most. If I remember correctly, Weaver was wheeling and dealing to get three 1st round picks, and drafted Bey himself. If his vision is poor on the guys he is drafting, that's not good.
I'd feel a lot better if Bey was drafted before Weaver took it over and decided it didn't fit what he wants.
Stewart's a really solid bench guy- he shouldn't be starting. He reminds me of a more polished Jason Maxiell.
February 9th, 2023 at 7:47 PM ^
Can't disagree with this at all. However, I will say evaluation sometimes fails. Or sometimes people aren't good at evaluating. I think to really understand how good someone is at evaluating might involve looking at a player's WAR (or whatever metric you like) against the average WAR of a similar player drafted around the same time in the draft. If Weaver's player are routinely higher, then maybe he's pretty good. If it's the opposite, then maybe not. Then of course you have injuries and personal stuff that are variables that aren't hard to control for and near impossible to predict at times.
February 10th, 2023 at 3:15 PM ^
I honestly dont believe Bey was misevaluated or even a bad pick. He was the 19th pick in a historically bad draft class. Getting a guy who is a decent role player out of that slot is not some terrible indictment of Weaver or the Pistons scouting department. He showed a lot of promise after his rookie season. Im not putting too much blame on a teams GM for a player not ultimately developing better.
February 10th, 2023 at 7:56 AM ^
3 1st round picks and didn't take Desmond Bane, told him he would he just never got around to it.
February 10th, 2023 at 1:12 AM ^
There’s no identity. Pistons are just stockpiling high-upside guys hoping a couple hit big
Scary thing to me is that none of them are showing the early signs you want to see of a guy capable of being a number one (or even two) on a championship-caliber team
February 9th, 2023 at 6:13 PM ^
Really a big break for Livers. I always thought his future with Pistons depended on convincing them that he could be a better than 40% shooter from 3 and no worse a defender than Bey.
February 9th, 2023 at 8:36 PM ^
He's already a much better defender than Bey, and he also plays better team basketball.
I'm excited for him. This is a huge opportunity
February 9th, 2023 at 6:27 PM ^
OP - How is it that you say they gave away Bey, but it could be a steal, and you are not sure how you feel about this trade.
Are you confused????????????