Penn State A Possible Dim Future With the Big Ten?
I am praying to God that these emails are no what I think they are and what I think they are is Joe Pa knew about this longer than he let on and if that's the case my stomach will sink lower than it has since my mother told me about my grandpa's passing this morning. It has not been a good weekend for me so far. With this new light of evidence in sight how do you see Penn State's future with the Big Ten in the coming decades? Will a new administration be enough to patch up what has happened or is the damage so severe they should leave our conference? My good friend who I work with loves PSU so for him this whole situation and yesterday's article is making him considering joining a new fanbase. He hates tOSU so I'm hoping he'll join my side with Wolverine Nation. Your thoughts on Penn State's future in our conference?
Btw a side note my grandfather lived to be 89 played NCAA basketball at Kent State in the 1950s and was a veteran of the US Navy in the Pacific Theatre during WWII. Stan Musial served on the boat he was on also and he always told me Tom Harmon was the toughest runner he ever saw. He met him and his wife also.
by the PSU situation
Sorry for your loss, it sounds like your Grandfather lived a full life. Glad you could share with us a little about him. Your and your family are in our thoughts as you honor and remember him.
-Kevin
do tell
(edited from something else)
but maybe just a "Dude, +1 for bereavement eloquence" would have sufficed.
just figured i should wipe it since it bothered at least one person enough to downvote it. (incidentally, i totally misread it earlier. i thought he'd asked for more details which made my quick subject line mention look totally insincere by contrast.)
shutting up now
must...
edit...
OP....
god forbid you offend someone on the internet.
i think the talk about kicking PSU out is weird, and premature given the lack of any signals from university presidents. i could see students protesting having to play PSU, and i could see AD's not wanting to do it if games get blacked out or played without fans (and so without ticket sales) or whatever. but before any of that happens, where would it come from? are the presidents really calling each other about how they should throw a large university out of the club for the actions of now-fired administrators?
sad to see one of the great historic programs just go down in flames...
honorable, respectable and admirable as the great Joe Paterno would help cover this up. I have always loved Joe Pa and next to Bo Joe Paterno is my all time favorite B10 coach. I am by no means a PSU fan but I have always loved Joe Pa and hearing this new information out has just shaken me greatly about my admiration for a man that maybe was not who I thought he truly was.
he was best friends with Sandusky, they were like brothers. blood wouldn't of made em any closer.
From what I've read, JoePa and Sandusky actually were not good friends. In fact, their relationship apparently deteriorated badly in the late '90s, culminating in JoePa telling Sandusky "You will never succeed me" in the meeting that prompted Sandusky's retirement. I get the sense that JoePa's protection of Sandusky was more about covering his own rear than anything.
If indeed that is the way, and the reason, that Sandusky retired, then Penn State will be lucky. I'm not buying it. I had always presumed that Sandusky would succeed Paterno. I was mystified by Sandusky's departure, with Paterno still in place. I'm more mystified than ever, knowing what we now know.
I remember a Penn State alum sitting right behind me for the "Manningham" game. I don't know who it was, but from our conversation, he was someone very smart and well-connected with their program. He could not have been nicer; even in defeat he was a gentleman, and I said to him, "This is just part of being in the Big Ten for you. This is what happens. It has happened to us, as a Number 1 team losing to Conference rivals. Your team will still go on to bigger and better things, for being part of the Conference." He agreed. But in the course of the conversation, I asked him what happened to Sandusky, simply for the reason that I presumed Sandusky to be the one clear heir to Paterno. He just shook his head. He couldn't explain. In hindsight it is a very haunting conversation.
I think it's important to remember that we don't really know these people. We think we do because of their importance in sports and presense in the media. But we know their public personas only. They might be that person, they might not be. I think the lesson is to avoid putting these guys on a pedestal. They aren't exactly curing cancer or feeding the homeless (or insert whatever you determine to be a noble mission).
It could simply be that an aging Joe Paterno had an moment of weakness as he focused on going for the all time wins record and decided to make a business decision over a moral one. But it's moments like that that reveal true character. When choosing between himself and protecting kids, Joe Paterno chose himself.
except that in 2001 the all time wins record wasn't really in reach....took until last year to get it. This guy wanted to cover up ANYTHING that could potentially derail the program.
Makes you wonder what else he covered up.
He had a ways to go but I'm quite sure that Paterno's last 10 years or so were solely focused on his hanging on long enough to win the most games. But I agree with you on everything else. It's quite possible he's covered up a lot more. I can't see anything being worse than this though.
Remember that JoePa and Bowden were also neck-and-neck for the active wins title at this time. It seemed for awhile that each one was trying to outlast the other.
Sadly, neither one went out the way they wanted to.
What makes JoePa a Big 10 coach? I never got that. 90% of his accomplishments came outside of the Big10. I never understood why the trophy had his name on it. There were far better candidates to begin with.
that Paterno was not honorable, respectable, nor admirable. It's sad that he was living a lie and that you bought into it so much only to be let down by his actions. But I have no sympathy for the man at all. According to the emails, he orchestrated the cover-up of a grown man raping young boys. He deserves no statue, no stadium named after him, and no respect at all. He's a reprehensible person whose larger-than-life persona on campus allowed him to determine what was right and wrong regardless of the rules.
This world is a better place without him living in it.
I agree. This whole thing makes me nauseous, but I'm glad this has seen the light. Hopefully it will empower more people to come out and speak up...
my b
Excellent question. And consider the fact that JoePa had 16 grandchildren. I would have expected better from him on that fact alone.
It simply won't happen. There's too much money involved. If the Big Ten kicks Penn State out of the league, they lose the football championship game (have to have 12 teams to have 2 divisions and a championship game), and the whole reason the Big Ten added a 12th team was for the championship game and the associated revenue boost. If it was still an 11-team conference then there's a small chance it happens, but not now.
Why couldn't we just add another school to replace them? Pitt would probably jump at an invitation. If we had another school lined up, it'd actually make scheduling simple - just replace PSU's schedule with the new school's.
Unless Notre Dame came into the situation and said they'd like to join the B1G, PSU just won't be kicked out. Too much money, but I'm essentially beating a dead horse.
But seriously, Pitt?
In the name of justice, the hundreds of people that knew something was going on but turned a blind eye should be punished. Joe Paterno should have been punished. But unfortunately, that will not come to pass. Yet, while the whole university community and everyone who has come into contact with Sandusky for the past 10 years should go to jail, it is important to realize that this is something much, much, much bigger than football.
In fact, I find it disrespectful to the victims that people would suggest banning Penn State from being a member of the Big 10. Utterly reprehensible that anyone would truly believe that justice for the victims would be best served by cutting off football participation by Penn State.
Spanier, Schultz, and Paterno weren't looking out for football by relucting to take action against Sandusky. Rather, for Paterno, it was basically sending your son who has always done the right thing to prison. Besides, who gives a damn about Penn State football? If they had reported Sandusky, Penn State football resumes as normal and he goes to jail. The reason why it was so difficult for them to condem Sandusky was because he was a loved one to them. And, as Stephenrjking pointed out, it is STILL your responsibility to send even your most loved ones to jail at the hint of breaking the law. (Case in point - Ted Kaczynski's brother recognized his handwriting and identified him as the unabomber).
No, justice for these poor young men will be served when all the criminals pay their dues to society by rotting in prison.
Football was not the criminal, neither are the players, neither are the students.
Spanier, Schultz, and Paterno weren't looking out for football by relucting to take action against Sandusky.
I'm not sure why you make this assumption. To me, that's the most logical explanation - they saw this is a potentially embarrassing situation for the football program, and by extension the university, and hoped it could somehow go away.
Say they'd have gone to the police in 2002 and Sandusky got sent to jail. Having your assistant coach get locked away for child molestation is a pretty huge deal and would lead to troubling questions about Paterno. The 1998 incident surely would have come to light. How could Paterno recruit after that? Everyone would want to know what he was doing associating with a sex offender. Doing the right thing and turning Sandusky in would have caused them a lot of headaches. Doing the wrong thing by sweeping it under the rug, they figured, just might work out for them - and indeed, for almost a decade no one knew.
For this reason, I think there needs to be sanctions. PSU covered up for a sex abuser for years and benefitted from it. They won the Big Ten in '05 and '08. They've gone to bowl games seven years in a row. In my opinion, they benefitted on the field from the coverup. By shielding their program from a potential scandal, they were able to continue bringing in top talent. And even now, they still are benefitting from the institutional goodwill they've worked up over years - they've got 14 verbal commitments right now, including a bunch of 4-star guys. Their program has a new, unproven coach, but it's not a smoking crater by any means. And honestly, after the way they tried to hide Sandusky's crimes, maybe it should be. There have to be severe repercussions for this kind of institutional behavior.
I don't think that having your assistant coach go to jail is that big of a deal, especially when you yourself are the one reporting it. If you think about it, really, Paterno would have been seen as a hero if he had acted upon the first information he received. He would have been even larger than life - a protector of the law as well.
And no, it would not affect recruiting .. The only negative repercussion it would have would be on the university itself. People would ask questions like - "Why was he given so much access to the facilities? How come there wasn't more supervision?". Questions like those relate not to the football program, but to the athletic department in general - a subdivision of the university.
Really, even though Paterno could have been seen as the hero for using his position of power to stop a predator within the initial time frame of finding out about Sandusky, his judgement was clouded by the perpetrator being basically his own son. His special relationship with Sandusky probably made him incredulous to the accusations and when too much time had gone by, it was too much trouble to do something.
Penn State University did not cover up anything - it was Spanier, Curley, Shultz, and Paterno. They no longer are affiliated with this instiution of learning.
Did any of the current players on the football team commit a crime? Did any of the players on the volleyball team commit a crime? Did the coach of the women's golf team commit a crime? No, and therefore they should not be punished.
All we ask for is for the punishment of those involved, and that does not (hopefully) include any of the current staff under the athletic department of Penn State
To clarify - Penn State is an institution. The purpose of Penn State is solely research and eduction. If the university as a whole was an institution that stood for the idea of child abuse, then yes, the entire university should suffer and be demerited.
But that's not the case.
"Penn State" did not cover anything up - it was the EX president of Penn State, the EX director of public safety, the EX athletic director, and the EX football coach. I hope all 4 of those guys rot in hell.
But don't confuse it with the institution of Penn State, please... it's not like every single dean of every single college, the entire board of trustees, all the faculty, and every single donor to academics at the university was in on this.
If you show me proof that any of what happened gave Penn State an unfair advantage in athletic competition, then I will completely agree that Penn State should be kicked out of the Big 10.
To those who will say that by covering this up, the institution was able to remain at a high prestige and thus gain an advantage in athletic competition vs. the alternative - that is circumstantial because even now after the huge mess, they are still recruiting at a high level in all of their sports. In fact, it would have been strengthening to the athletic department had someone reported it - it would have showed the embodiment of what Penn State represents: character and integrity.
I'm not sure how you can "prove" that PSU benefitted on the field (we can't go back in time and run an alternate test), but logically, it would stand to reason that by sweeping the Sandusky business under the rug for years, they kept their reputation intact, and this probably helped them in recruiting, as well as perhaps in ticket sales. JoePa might have been forced to retire years earlier, which could have divided their fanbase pretty significantly.
But to me, it's kind of beside the point whether or not they gained an athletic advantage. It's pretty morally troubling that one of our member schools would ever resort to something like this. Do they deserve Big Ten membership, and all the athletic and academic advantages that confers, based on how they've behaved?
If the results of these emails are accurate then Penn State will have some problems over time. Does this mean being kicked out of the Big Ten? Unlikely. Does this mean a loss of credibility, reputation and status. Does this mean tarring the rest of the Big Ten with their legacy? Sadly. Will they be kicked out though? Likely not. Just relegated down the ladder for a few years.
If, however, the Big Ten is going to kick out Penn State I can think of another Pennsylvania School they should invite (caution: clarkiefromcanada's personal bias will now be in full effect):
I wouldn't mind, but why not go after ND to replace them?
To Hell with notre dame ...
Go Blue!
I really don't get the whole kick PSU out because the actions of four people shouldn't mean an entire state university of 40K students should be kicked out.
Well, for one thing, I think there were likely more than just four people aware of Sandusky's criminal behavior. The man molested many children over a long period of time, and also kept hanging around the program even after his retirement. But even if it was just four people, these guys were the face of the university - the big decision-makers. They apparently maintained a decade-long cover up, presumably to keep the program/school from avoiding scandal. PSU's reputation is terribly compromised. The Big Ten, by extension, gets a black eye from this. How can we consider this one of our sister institutions after what's gone on there?
An assistant coach and a janitor witnessed the act. If 6 people know about anything, it is no longer a secret.
Good point - especially when you're talking about six people at all different levels of the institutional hierarchy.
They suggest that the university president, AD, and multiple coaches covered up Sandusky's actions. I think that kicking PSU out of the Big Ten is hard to do but I'd be fine with giving their football team the death penalty for a few years. That entire program allowed a rapist to have total access to team facilities for over a decade after the first known incident. And don't think he just started to do this to young boys from the mid 90's on; the man could have raped a hundred children over his 40 plus years of access to the facilities.
Penn State was a small college in the middle of rural Pennsylvania and now they've got an enrollment worthy of a major university. This coincided with their football program rising to prominence. It's such a cash cow that PSU would want to protect it as best they could. With that in mind it's not hard for me to see how a cover up could happen.
If covering up and allowing child rape to occur on campus isn't grounds for major penalties for a university, I don't know what is.
I really don't think that the NCAA should sanction their FB program. It should be dealt with in the court room with those who were involved.