OT--Well's report on Incognito/Martin bullying comes down heavy on Incognito and Pouncey
Said Mr. Wells: “The Report concludes that three starters on the Dolphins offensive line, Richie Incognito, John Jerry and Mike Pouncey, engaged in a pattern of harassment directed at not only Jonathan Martin, but also another young Dolphins offensive lineman and an assistant trainer. The Report finds that the assistant trainer repeatedly was the object of racial slurs and other racially derogatory language; that the other offensive lineman was subjected to homophobic name-calling and improper physical touching; and that Martin was taunted on a persistent basis with sexually explicit remarks about his sister and his mother and at times ridiculed with racial insults and other offensive comments.”
This may or may not be surprising, but it is definitely hard to believe in these findings after the release of the extensive text messages exchanged between Martin and Incognito.
I know this topic has been covered to death on this board, and I'd assume that Well's had way more information than we do, but this just makes the whole situation even more confusing...
February 14th, 2014 at 12:26 PM ^
Good lord. I am so sick of this story and really thought it was done, but apparently not. I don't mean anything bad against the OP, mind you; just sick of the subject matter in the media.
February 14th, 2014 at 12:30 PM ^
I'm a little skeptical of the report - not that anything in it isn't true, but I'm not sure it's in context very well. Let's face it - "sexually explicit remarks about sisters and mothers" are not the least bit uncommon, nor taken literally, in lots of different settings. You could do a context-free analysis of this board and find it horrifying even given the high standards of behavior.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:25 PM ^
Having played High School, College, and even recreational league sports - this goes on at just about every level of sports. This is the NFL trying to polish the shield, in my opinion. Especially in light of what Martin himself sent to Incognito. Where is the documentation in the report of that? How is that explained? It's not. This is a biased report in my opinion.
Now the Dolphins will be found liable and Martin will get a payday.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:35 PM ^
When I read part of the transcript of the texts that was made public a few weeks back or so, it certainly looked like Martin had quite a dirty mouth on him himself. Whatever Richie sent to him, Jonathan fired right back, just as inappropriately as well (at least he did early on). I'm just so utterly confused as to this whole situation.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:38 PM ^
It's difficult to summarize. It's both balanced and nuanced, in my opinion, and isn't as hard on Incognito as headlines may make it seem.
A microcosm of the situation is probably the fact that both Martin and Incognito recognized that they had a "bi-polar" relationship.
February 14th, 2014 at 3:05 PM ^
Agree 100%. Here is a link to a summary of the worst of it. This would get you reprimanded, perhaps even fired, in any workplace in America. And rightfully so. You have to forget this is a lockerroom, or football. It is also a workplace, your teammates are co-workers, and the activities and insults described here are totally beyond the pale.
http://deadspin.com/the-worst-stuff-from-the-dolphins-investigation-upd…
February 14th, 2014 at 4:06 PM ^
I was about to reply before hitting the link. Glad I didn't. I will still make the point that "it's a workplace" does not imply a monolithic behavior standard. You wouldn't hold, say, a mechanic's garage and a corporate meeting room to the same standards, and something that would get you fired in one workplace would be just fine in another. I'm not going to hold the locker room to the same standard as the boardroom just because "it's the workplace."
That said, there's still a minimum standard, and Incognito is a raging asshole who probably ought to be blacklisted from the league. I don't think the fact that it's a workplace has any bearing on treating people like that.
P.S. I don't have a lot of respect for Martin either. I know, don't blame the victim.....but if you don't like what's happening, don't encourage it either, which is what he was doing.
February 14th, 2014 at 4:13 PM ^
February 14th, 2014 at 5:04 PM ^
Yes, I've read that stuff, and in a very small way I feel bad for Incognito as well because Martin sure seemed to give the impression that he was just fine with all this stuff. "The question is not whether I treat you badly but whether you've ever seen me treat anyone else different." (Not an Incognito quote.) I can see how it would be a shock if he just keeps acting the same way he's used to and everyone all responds more or less the same to it and then all of a sudden one of them goes crying to the media.
But he's not that sympathetic of a figure here. Without getting to be a fly on the wall, it doesn't sound like there was a lot of, say, back-and-forth in this friendship of theirs.
February 14th, 2014 at 4:22 PM ^
I take your point re differing standards for acceptable conduct, but this I think you have to apply a reasonableness standard (reasonableness may vary a bit by the workplace, i.e. what's reasonable for bartenders in Vegas may not be for officer workers here in SF). I think we agree Richie crossed it here.
February 14th, 2014 at 12:32 PM ^
In what workplace/school environment do guys NOT make fun of each others sisters, moms, wives, etc? Or make racially insensitive jokes? I'm 6'5" and people make jokes about me being tall ... am I being bullied? Maybe I'm insecure about my height.
I'm not trying to be a meathead, but you could find this type of behavior anywhere if you were digging for it. It's kind of the same thing with sexual harrassment ... if you actively look for it, you'll find it everywhere. Who hasn't told a dirty joke or made a remark about the attractiveness of a co-worker, vendor, employee, customer etc ...
This is all pretty ridiculous in my opinion. I'd be much more worried about the hookers, coke, and weed if I were the NFL.
February 14th, 2014 at 12:48 PM ^
February 14th, 2014 at 1:39 PM ^
I'm not saying racially insensitive jokes are ok. I'm saying that they happen everywhere. Also, sometimes it's done in a manner where all parties are ok with it. Just like the barbershop scene in Gran Torino. Friends are known to crack jokes about each other's race for fun. Incognito might have just been treating him like the other 52 guys on the team, and didn't realize that Martin was taking offense to it. I don't think Incognito was saying things because he hates African-Americans. Especially considering that the majority of the locker-room is compromised of African-Americans, and every player interviewed went to bat for Richie.
February 14th, 2014 at 2:50 PM ^
Please don't stereotype NFL players for what's going on with Miami. That type of stuff is not common in other locker rooms.
— TJ Lang (@TJLang70) February 14, 2014
February 14th, 2014 at 11:34 PM ^
February 14th, 2014 at 1:41 PM ^
Anyone who has played sports with a diverse group of people (and quite frankly, worked with or just has friends who aren't all the same ethnicity or race) has engaged in banter that touches on the races/ethnicities of the individuals.
I find the people that are stuffy on this subject tend to have almost no friends outside their own similar background or work in a media/academic/political field that is sanitized from the real world the rest of us live in.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:47 PM ^
You're talking about friendships in which all parties have a sense of the dynamics of their relationship, and therefore have a good idea of what's ok amongst friends. I really find it hard to believe that you could describe Incognito and Martin's relationship like that. They weren't close friends; they were coworkers with stark power differences (i.e., veteran v. rookie).
Acting like, "people say 'your mom' jokes and say things about their friends sister" are totally ignoring the actual relationship that existed between these guys (not to mention the actual magnitude of what those comments were). They weren't old college buddies or friends from high school.
February 14th, 2014 at 2:17 PM ^
Come on, they were going to bars and strip clubs together seemingly every weekend. Those aren't activities that I partake in with my coworkers (at least not coworkers that I don't also consider to be friends).
February 14th, 2014 at 3:07 PM ^
Martin routinely asked Incognito to hang out. From their text messages they were a little more than just co-workers. While Incognito was crass and I believe he's an idiot, it seems pretty apparent he thought they were friends. Martin - from the texts and I really have no reason to believe otherwise - acted like they were friends.
If he wanted Incognito to stop or was going too far, he should have asked him to stop. Its that simple.
February 14th, 2014 at 3:16 PM ^
Richie would continue to gang up on him and bring his buddies to gang up on him as well. Saying stop is not that simple because Richie is a big man who is strong and has a mean streak where is Martin is a gentle giant who happen to play in the NFL.
February 14th, 2014 at 4:10 PM ^
It is that simple. Martin allowed himself to be bullied and routinely went along with the over-the-top vulgar behavior.
If he had attempted to stop the bullying, I'd be on his side. He didn't even try and therefore I don't feel much sympathy for him.
February 14th, 2014 at 12:51 PM ^
Let's be cool with horrible behavior because other people do it.
It's one thing to tell a joke or to rib on a friend. It's a whole other thing to mistreat someone when you do it. If your friends kept ribbing on you for your height or sexual oritentation or whatever, you'd probably laugh along until you realized they were going overboard. Then you'd tell them to stop. If they don't listen and continue, then they're being assholes. Period. Full stop.
You might be able to just find new friends, which is the best solution. But on a team, especially when you're the younger player, there isn't much room to just get away. You're stuck.
I get the basic argument that people need to have thick skin because the world can be a bitch, but I don't think that argument should be used to normalize other people's shitty behavior.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:27 PM ^
I never said that it was right to do, I just said you can find it anywhere if you're actively looking for it ... and I don't think these guys deserve to burn for an activity that happens league-wide. If you're going to investigate the Dolphins, then invesitage every other team. You're telling me Incognito didn't make jokes (or bully if that's your opinion) while he was with the Rams or at Nebraska?
I guarantee every locker room has this stuff going on. You don't think there has been a "your mom" or "hows your sister" joke in every locker room or clubhouse?
February 14th, 2014 at 1:32 PM ^
...included the following:
"We are going to run train on your sister. She loves me. I am going to fuck her without a condom and cum in her cunt."
"Hey, JMart's sister in is town. Get the plastic sheet's ready, she's a squirter."
"I'm going to bang the shit out of her and spit on her and treat her like shit."
"Hear your sister has a wolf-puss. A fat, hairy pussy."
"I flew JMArt's sister into Indy. My dick is dry and needs some of her healing squirt juices."
February 14th, 2014 at 1:41 PM ^
Oh come ON Eric. I mean seriously - who amoung us can honestly say they havent said those things, several times, today even, to co-workers? I know I basically start every Monday when I come into the office by greeting my associates with "Good morning - hey, we are going to run a train on your sister. She loves me. I am going to fuck her without a condom cum in her cunt. How was your weekend?"
Seriously though, In what universe exactly do people actually think these thoughts, much less say this to other humans?
And now we know why Richie wasn't exactly killing it with the ladies. Sounds like his game there needs a LOT of work.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:42 PM ^
A locker room is different than a cubicle or a board room. We are talking about man-children here.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:51 PM ^
Incognito and Co. knew they were pushing it with the guys they were picking on. Incognito joked at one point that one of the guys they were picking on (not Martin) was going to come to work one day and shoot them all. Incognito even kept a sort of score card (the fine book on pg. 39 of the report) on which he noted that he should be fined for "breaking JMart" and on which he awarded another player $250 for "not cracking first." Incognito understood how damaging this would be, and he asked that the fine book be destroyed when the story broke.
February 14th, 2014 at 2:04 PM ^
The "just kidding" excuse is a typical defense for bullying behavior. If you're not man enough to be accountable for your actions and how they might affect others, then don't be surprised if someone has to do it for you.
February 14th, 2014 at 3:03 PM ^
Yes, after the fact it became damaging.
When Martin was playing along, it was all well and good.
If he was bothered, he should have confronted someone on the team or Incognito himself or anyone to solve the issue at hand. Instead, he was a coward.
I've seen high-schoolers handle this type of thing with more backbone than Martin.
February 14th, 2014 at 3:25 PM ^
...excuse Incognito's behavior. Per the report, Martin routinely doubted himself for not standing up to Incognito and Co., but he apparently could never do it. That's a separate issue.
Incognito himself described their relationship as "bi-polar" and realized he'd been the one to "break" Martin. I believe there was some genuine confusion on his part (he strikes me as a guy who could use some counseling himself, and I don't mean that as an insult at all), but he also knew he was pushing things.
February 14th, 2014 at 4:18 PM ^
Incognito has very little to do with this.
Either you believe that the culture is wrong and that needs to be changed (and this goes way beyond Incognito, we're talking about millions of young men across the U.S.) or its on Martin to disengage himself from the culture. He chose to participate (because he has no backbone) and then simply threw his teammates under the bus rather than confront them and settle things quietly.
February 14th, 2014 at 4:34 PM ^
He said vulgar things, but he didn't verbally attack people. There's a pretty big difference there...You're also assuming that he could have settled things quietly. I'm not sure how or if Martin could have done that. We're not talking about reasonable people who are likely to respond well to a request to knock it off.
February 14th, 2014 at 5:30 PM ^
But - and here's the kicker - because Martin never revealed he felt bullied, how were the guys supposed to know that he felt that way if that is how everyone on the team acted and Martin didn't seem to care? They clearly thought he was their friend. They clearly thought he was on board as Incognito consistently tried to hang out with him on a personal basis (and Martin did the same).
And you're just assuming that saying something wouldn't have worked and maybe you're right, but we'll never know because Martin is cowardly. End of.
February 14th, 2014 at 5:58 PM ^
Incognito knew he was pushing things. Prior to anything becoming public, Incognito joked about another guy he was bullying coming to the buliding to shoot them all because of the way they'd treated him. He fined himself for "breaking" Martin. He gave another guy credit for "not cracking first." I know I'm repeating myself, but I think you're missing this. He understood at some level - in some warped way - what he was doing, this even if he and Martin sometimes got along.
This isn't to say that there relationship was simple. It certainly was not. But Incognito understood this wasn't all in good fun. He treated Martin well at some points and very poorly at others. Incognito recognized this and referred to their relationship as "bi-polar." Martin, crucially, didn't bully Incognito back, so while there was vulgar language exchanged, it wasn't a give and take of "Your mom is X/No, your mom is Y." Martin was someone who Incognito would - by his own account - try to "shock" by doing things like calling him the n-word. Martin did no such thing in return.
As for Martin, even if we take it for granted that he is a coward, you can rape a prostitute or rob a person who is bad at handling his money or murder someone who is a big jerk. You can accordingly bully a coward. As the report says, that makes the bullying worse, not better.
February 14th, 2014 at 11:40 PM ^
February 14th, 2014 at 3:37 PM ^
I don't know enough about what went on between Martin and Incognito, but I suspect you're right that he could have handled it better. But that sword cuts both ways. If Martin needs to assert himself, Incognito needs to be honest about what he was doing.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:50 PM ^
"We are talking about man-children here."
Oh, well in that case, best to let them do whatever they want and not actually do anything about their horrible behavior. Or maybe, just maybe, when confronted with Incognito's behavior, it's an opportunity to correct the "locker room culture" that people seem to think is somehow a free pass to act however one wants without consequence.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:53 PM ^
If your saying that because it's a locker room it's ok i respectfully reject that arguement for the same reasons that it was once considered "ok" to talk to women this way in certain workplace environments (like on the line building cars for example) because that's just the way guys talk in those situations. And for two summers in 1980 & 81 I build GMC trucks in Pontiac and I can tell you the treatment the women got then was remarkably similiar to what Martin recieved. It's not ok then and it's not ok now - locker room or not.
And while we're at it we're not talking about a man-child (which would denote in mind innocence) we're talking about a large, physically imposing bully blessed with zero social skills for interacting with both men OR women.
February 14th, 2014 at 2:03 PM ^
Martin isn't a woman. He's an enormous, powerful professional athlete. If he had a problem with what was being said by Incognito, he should have told him to shut his mouth. If Incognito refused, he should have kicked him in the dick every day first thing in the morning until he did.
Bitching about it after the fact because someone said something mean (no matter how gross it is) is pathetic. I learned the "sticks and stones" lesson when I was fucking three. A grown man, especially one who is literally twice as big as I am, should have no problem absorbing the same lesson.
February 14th, 2014 at 2:18 PM ^
Yes and no. While I fundimentally agree with you on how I would've expected Martin to react to Incognito's treatment of him the issue in my mind isnt that but rather is it OK for Incognito to do it all. And I think the answer to that is a definite no. It's not ok.
How Martin chose to deal (or not deal as the case might be) is another debate entirely IMO.
February 14th, 2014 at 3:52 PM ^
So in an environment where everyone has no problem with what Incognito was saying it would still not be ok? I would completely disagree with your assessment. Now while I don't speak like that, I am not going to tell an adult they can't speak to another adult that way, unless of course someone has a problem with it. In that case, it is up to that adult that has a problem to address the problem, if it cannot be solved, then now there is an issue. Otherwise, why should anyone get involved.
February 14th, 2014 at 4:01 PM ^
Martin's reaction is the whole issue, because if he didn't have a problem with it there wouldn't be a story.
Unless the stance you're taking is that all derogatory ribbing is off limits even in an NFL locker room (something I don't think you're saying) then we're just talking about what the people in question are comfortable with. Martin, if he was particularly sensitive about his sister, might have gotten just as pissed if they had said they wanted to take her out for a romantic dinner, court her in a gentlemanly fashion for an extended period of time, and then make sweet, sweet love to her on their wedding night. If anything it sounds way more believable than the stuff they said, and if we don't think Martin believed they were serious about acting out the things they said, we're still just talking about a guy getting his feelings hurt by words. The only way for anyone to know it bothers him is if Martin says something.
Just recently a good friend of mine insulted my heritage by suggesting I might want to go eat haggis out of my mother's private parts. I know he's joking. He knows it doesn't bother me because we are trying to make each other laugh by busting balls. If I respond as I did by insulting the Queen of England's hygiene and questioning her suitableness as a haggis delivery system, he has no way of knowing that I (hypothetically) found it particularly hurtful. If it did bother me then it is my responsibility to say something, especially if the ribbing goes both ways, which it seems like it did in this Incognito/Martin case.
Taking any of this shit out of context is unfair, IMO, even if Incognito seems like a particularly unpleasant person whose crossing the line point seems to differ from most other people. Especially when the parties involved are both large adult males. That line is still subjective.
At the end of the day, I don't give a shit about grown men getting their feelings hurt by words, especially if they act like they don't have a problem with it at the time.
February 14th, 2014 at 3:06 PM ^
We learn early on by watching social interactions in school that the kids who react to the bullies are the ones the bully targets. Bullies want to get a rise out of the victim.
The best trick is to laugh along a little bit, act like it doesn't bother you, and get away. When you can't get away, you might try dishing it back a little bit to hope he respects you and finds another target.
Martin tried that trick, but it didn't work. I'm guessing at some point he told Incognito straight up to stop it, but that didn't seem to work either. Hence plan C: the media.
I research bullying for a living and am happy to point you to research to back up these points.
February 14th, 2014 at 3:16 PM ^
I don't remember the specifics of how this all rolled out, but did Martin actually go to the media? I just remember that he up and left the Dolphins' practice facility in the middle of the day and refused to go back. Which, not surprisingly, was a big story.
I could be wrong and misremembering it, but I don't remember Martin personally kicking up a media storm around this.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:43 PM ^
He definitely has a talent for making extremely descriptive and vulgar remarks.
February 14th, 2014 at 3:01 PM ^
Hey, let's bully the kid with Asperger's because other kids in his high school do! I mean, this happens in every high school, so maybe we just need to get over ourselves and get on with bullying kids with Aspergers! It'll toughen him right up!
February 14th, 2014 at 12:53 PM ^
what a great attitude you have. Basically what you are saying is "it happens everywhere so its not really a big deal".
February 14th, 2014 at 1:30 PM ^
February 14th, 2014 at 1:49 PM ^
That was the purpose of my entire post. IT HAPPENS EVERYWHERE. It isn't just Richie Incognito. If you're going to suspend him for what he did, then open up an investigation league-wide. I'm guessing 80%+ of the league's players would get suspended. Inappropriate jokes and hazing has happened since day 1 of the NFL.
It's wrong to let Incognito fry alone.
February 14th, 2014 at 1:52 PM ^
Even if "it happens everywhere" were somehow a legitimate excuse, which it isn't, other players didn't literally drive a teammate off the team.