OT: Update - It turns out the Red Wings are bad. Really, really bad.
There are a lot of Red Wings fans here and there were a couple of posts in mid-October showing some hope and optimism after they started 3-1 with Larkin, Mantha and Bertuzzi on fire to start the season.
Those hopes have been tragically squashed as the Wings have gone 1-10-1 in their last 12 games after getting crushed by Nashville 6-1 last night. During this 12 game stretch, the Wings have been outscored 52-20. They are currently BY FAR the worst in the NHL in goals allowed (63) and goal differential (-29). At their current pace, they will finish the season at 46 points (compared to 74 last year) which would be the 3rd worst season in Wings history.
Steve Yzerman now knows exactly what a disaster Ken Holland left him: an absurd roster made up of washed up vets who will not get another NHL contract (Nielsen, Abdelkader, Helm, Filppula - that one is on Stevie, Green, Daley, Biega, Ericsson - who was sent down to the Griffins, and Howard) and AHL'ers (Erne, Hirose, De La Rose, Ehn, Bowey and Hicketts).
There are some nice pieces in Larkin, Mantha, Bertuzzi, Hronek and maybe Athanasiou (who I think they should trade the next time he goes on a hot streak). Glendening, DeKeyser (who are both injured) and Nemeth are solid NHL players. Time will tell with Cholowski and Perlini, a former 1st round pick who they just acquired.
Then there is Jeff Blashill. I have no idea if he is a good NHL coach or not because he has not had the luxury of coaching a real NHL roster. I am starting to suspect not though as he is getting nothing from this team right now. Not sure what Yzerman will do with him but I wonder if he survives much longer. Scotty Bowman would have a hard time coaching this roster.
Bottom line, screw you Ken Holland. Good luck Steve, you are going to need it.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:27 AM ^
Is the issue Ken Holland, or is the issue the Ilitch family? I don't really follow pro sports, but it seems to me like Mike Ilitch was willing to spend his money to try to win championships in the NHL and MLB.
It's pretty clear, looking at the Tigers and Red Wings, that his progeny are completely unwilling to do anything with his money other than keep it.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:40 AM ^
Ownership is less an issue in the NHL because of the salary cap/salary floor. The Wings are close enough to the cap that they could theoretically be good if they were getting fair return on the money they're spending. It's just that they have some really, really awful contracts on the books right now.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:01 AM ^
Exactly. So much of the Red Wings success was built prior to the salary cap being implemented. Illitch was willing to spend way more money on talent than other franchises and it resulted in a lot of winning. When the NHL put a lid on that advantage, the Red Wings fell back into the pack pretty quickly.
November 5th, 2019 at 11:27 AM ^
That's such a cheap and lazy thought though. The salary cap was instituted in 2005/06, and right afterwards the Red Wings won 2 President's Trophies, a Stanley Cup, were 1 game away from another Cup win, and in 2013 were 1 game from the Conference Finals.
Their issue wasn't that they suddenly couldn't outspend teams, it was that the team refused to admit they had an aging core, and were more content to just making the playoffs than try to build a contender.
Seriously, for the 2013/14 season, coming off of 4 straight disappointing playoff loses, what do they do? They play 35 year old Dan Cleary for 52 games (4g/4a/8p). 37 year old Mikael Samuelsson played 26 games (1g/2a/3p). They signed 41 year old Daniel Alfredsson (68 games, 18g/31a/49p) for whatever reason. And when we had injuries to essentially all of our centers, rather than admitting it was a lost season, we sent 2 players and a draft pick so we could get 33 year old David Legwand to play 21 games (4g/7a/11p) just so that we could make the playoffs.
The Red Wings current trash roster isn't soley because they don't know how to manage the salary cap, it's because they waited until 2017-ish to admit they needed to rebuild.
November 5th, 2019 at 11:57 AM ^
Hard disagree, its not like all contracts were voided in 05/06. Pretty much all of the success they had through 2009, was done on the back of pre 05/06 acquisitions. Those years were basically Wiley Coyote years and then we looked down.
Reasons for failure:
1. Salary cap
2. Holland isn't Devellano- terrible draft record and signed past prime FAs
3. Better European scouting by other teams.
November 5th, 2019 at 12:30 PM ^
Nah, the 2 Stanley Cup teams were powered by guys drafted/signed by Holland.
The 2007/08 team was led in points by Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Cleary, Hudler, Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Franzen, Filppula and Kronwall. And in the playoffs it was Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Kronwall, Hudler, Rafalski, Samuelsson, Lidstrom, Holmstrom, and Filppula led the team in scoring.
Of those 11 guys, only Lidstrom and Holmstrom were drafted by Dellevano. And the guys we added in Free Agency, Rafalski, Cleary, and Samuelsson were all added after the salary cap.
2008/09 is the same story. Regular season scoring was Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Hossa, Franzen, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Hudler, Kronwall, Samuelsson, Cleary, Filppula, and Holmstrom. Then the layoffs was Zetterberg, Franzen, Lidstrom, Filppula, Cleary, Hossa, Hudler, Rafalski, Samuelsson, and Brad Stuart/Kronwall/Datsyuk.
Only Lidstrom and Holmstrom as 90's holdovers, and the free agents, Brad Stuart and Hossa, were added after the salary cap.
I'm never going to argue that Ken Holland was great at managing the salary cap. But there's this revisionist history that the Wings only won because they bought every good player, or that Jim Dellevano was the real mastermind behind all their success. And that is just flat out wrong. Players might have been drafted pre-2006 salary cap, but no NHL team was giving a 20 year old rookie 15 million a year.
November 5th, 2019 at 12:40 PM ^
The issue with that is the scouting department that had Holland pick Z and Datsyuk was built by Jimmy D. The same Wile E Coyote effect happened to scouting about 8 years prior to the team in general. There is a pretty precipitous drop off after the 1999 draft.
November 5th, 2019 at 1:16 PM ^
That's very true but the Red Wings mining talent and hitting on those mid and late round players also changed the landscape in the NHL scouting. Other teams started going to the corners of the earth finding players that they might not normally know about.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:28 AM ^
Ah, okay. That makes sense.
That's what I get for simultaneously ignoring and having strong opinions on professional sports. Back to just ignoring them, I guess.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:54 AM ^
You don't like professional sports, huh?
November 5th, 2019 at 11:19 AM ^
This right here.
Ken Holland's teams started going down hill ever since the salary cap took effect because we had to compete on equal terms with other teams rather than buying our way to the top.
I have a feeling it's going to take Stevie several years to dig us out of the hole that Ken put us in. There's no "quick fixing" this mess
November 5th, 2019 at 12:01 PM ^
They have to burn off terrible contracts for a couple of years. They have given top line money to guys who were only top line because the team was bad.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:47 AM ^
Prior to 04/05 lockout there was no salary cap or luxury tax. We could pay talented players whatever we wanted and get them to come to Detroit. According to the wiki link below the wings spent the 2nd most on player salaries between 1997 and 2007 only behind the Rangers. In 2003/2004 we paid $77 million compared to average team payroll that year of $44 million. The next full year we had to cut down to $39 million due to the Cap.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_team_payrolls_in_the_NHL
Illitch was willing to spend on winners. His family may not be so much but they are also significantly constrained by cap rules in the NHL.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:31 AM ^
The Wings were also ahead of other NHL teams with respect to international scouting. Lidstrom and Kozlov were third-rounders, Federov in the 4th, Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Konstantinov in the later rounds. Easy to trade first-rounders for Shanny et al. when you have that luxury.
November 5th, 2019 at 1:57 PM ^
This is super important. They got tremendous value with Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Zetterberg turning into HOFers from the later rounds. They did it by having superior foreign scouting and they haven't been able to maintain that advantage. The current roster has a bunch of average guys, and even the top end are more or less playing up to their draft spot. To be great, you need guys who play above their level: midround guys on the top 6 and first round picks have to be all stars.
Yzerman seemed to do a good job of scouting and savvy trades while with Tampa, but he'll need a few years to get everything in place.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:28 AM ^
Blash is a deadman walking. He wasn't Stevie's guy, he's had more than enough time and his team is seemlingly getting worse. Its sad to see how little fire that team has.
Can Steve lure Spuddy away from the Knights? Coaching in Detroit has to be on Gerard's bucket list, he had a great career in Detroit as a player. He was there from the worst right up to the cusp of winning a Cup (I think he was gone two years before we won in '97 & '98)
Fire the money cannon
November 5th, 2019 at 9:28 AM ^
LGRW!
November 5th, 2019 at 9:29 AM ^
As one of the few here old enough to have live through the infamous "Dead Wings" era (1967-1982) I can only hope the turnaround happens faster this time around.
https://kaisercoolcat.weebly.com/dead-wings.html
FWIW in my basement I've got framed Freep & News front pages from the 97, 98, 02 & 08 seasons and an autographed Steve Yzerman jersey hangs over my bar.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:19 AM ^
Wow you are a hero!
November 5th, 2019 at 11:32 AM ^
wow, you're a POS
November 5th, 2019 at 5:43 PM ^
Why do you act like such a tool?
November 5th, 2019 at 11:56 AM ^
I lived through most of that, although I showed up a few years in and didn't start paying attention to hockey until it was nearly over (thankfully)
November 5th, 2019 at 1:35 PM ^
I was first sports-aware for the tail-end of that era (say, 79-82). I remember watching a snowy broadcast of HNIC as being so happy that we got a tie. That's about where we are right now.
Jimmy Rutherford and John Ogrodnick. Terrible teams, but nostalgia is powerful.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:29 AM ^
I was just having this talk with my Wing-nut 9 year old this morning. He's desperate to get to his first NHL game; good news is tickets aren't hard to come by. Bad news is... WOOF.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:35 AM ^
My advice is do it. Your kid won't care about the quality of the on-ice team if you go which is nice especially given after-market tickets should be dirt cheap. Took my family to an August Cubs game in 2014 - got 5 upper deck seats for $90 total. Now same seats are about $90 per ticket. Price of success.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:22 AM ^
Do it. My dad took me to a Wings game back in 1968 at the even then, very old Olympia stadium in downtown Detroit. I remember that as a nine year old the outside of that building was the biggest damn thing I had ever seen and I also remember missing out on "Scoro" by one person as my friend bought the program in front of me that i was suppose to get but I couldnt find my money in time. I was PISSED.
I'm pretty sure the Wings won and I'm also pretty sure Frank Mahovlich, scored a goal with Gordie & Alex Delveccio assisting (the old Production Line).
Good memories!
November 5th, 2019 at 12:11 PM ^
I went to a Wings game at The Olympia back in the 1970's. I don't remember the year but I was young, maybe 4, 5 or 6. I just remember wooden seats and the crowd noise being extremely loud. I guess my ears were more tender back then but I also think the architecture and materials had some natural resonant frequencies that amplified the noise.
November 5th, 2019 at 11:37 AM ^
He'll love it regardless! I remember my dad taking me to see wings games. While Michigan Football may be my favorite sport, I've never been a part of a more electric atmosphere and crowd than that Red Wings playoff game at The Joe. The crowd about blew the roof off the place! Great memories.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:31 AM ^
Yeah, the Wings are a disaster. This roster is abysmal, at best. Stevie Y is going to hamstrung for a few years while Helm, Abs, Dayley, and Nielsen play out their contract. I don't think buying them out is going to solve anything. They will be dead weight on the cap anyways. I would trade Athanasiou for a defenseman in a heartbeat. You're right, he needs to get hot first; last night was a good start. I don't know if the goaltending as bad as it shows or if they're getting zero help. Either way, it ain't good guys. I had no problem with the Filp signing. He's shown some stuff and he's a vet.
As for Blashill, I've always been a defender of him because he was handed a crap team and told to make the best of it. I think the last couple of years he's done a good job of developing the youth. This year though, it doesn't appear to be working. Everyone appears to be stalling. There is zero progress from this team. The continual line shuffles are maddening. I wouldn't be surprised if Blashill is canned if the next ten games go anything like the last ten games.
Sad times in HockeyTown.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:36 AM ^
I cannot wait till we shed those horrible contracts. We are a victim of Kenny Holland's loyalty to aging players.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:54 AM ^
Or more likely old man Illich's demands. Look at the Miggy contact, which maybe the worst in baseball history, to see how Illich overrode his GMs to give out stupid contracts in his later years.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:58 AM ^
I blame old man Ilitch for the Tigers, but not the Wings. Ilitch was desperate to see a WS championship and who could blame him? He ordered DD to spend like a drunken sailor. He'd already gotten his Stanley Cups. Kenny, though, kept on signing people to dumbass contracts even after Ilitch was gone. It's possible that Ilitch did order Kenny to sign guys like Abdelkader and DeKeyser to dumbass contracts too, but I think that was more just Kenny not getting salary caps.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:11 AM ^
I’m not sure if Chris Illitch is an asset to the Wings although I think he does deserve credit for getting Yzerman.
November 5th, 2019 at 11:00 AM ^
The decision to start the rebuild and let Scherzer walk, then reverse course a year later and pay Zimmerman was an especially bad choice. Even if Max wanted to escape Verlander's shadow he would have been convinced to stay if the money was right. But by taking Zimmerman at least we made Scherzer's contract more palatable for the Nats.
And then we fully killed any last chance at a title by hiring, then retaining Ausmus when it was clear he was in over his head.
Oh well, maybe I will head down to Comerica in another decade if the franchis decides it wants to play at a MLB level.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:32 AM ^
Stevie knows the best way to improve is with #1 draft picks. He said when he started this was not going to be a quick process. He knew some years tanking were needed before we are going to contend.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:32 AM ^
Yzerman is about to put on a tanking clinic. This is how it's done.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:43 AM ^
yeah, that 3-1 start against some good teams was like a tremendous head fake. we (most?) all went for it.
now plummeting to the depths of NHL despair. LGRW.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:06 AM ^
I live out of state and was REALLY close to pulling the trigger on the NHL Center Ice package to watch Wings games this year....especially after that 3-1 start. Luckily, the package was free for the first week and reality set in before I actually bought it. I just can't spend money on the product that they are putting on the ice.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:44 AM ^
Pretty sure Yzerman wouldn't have come here without a commitment from the owners of support...expect a flurry of off season stuff that probably is in the works right now.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:51 AM ^
I trust Yzerman.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:56 AM ^
Blash is just a shit coach.
Look, I know Kenny put together a capped-out roster of third-liners getting paid like stars because he got enamored with thinking you needed to spend like hell to keep the Justin Abdelkaders around because once upon a time Kris Draper was really important. (And he was! But you can't pay him like Shanahan in the cap era!)
But this roster has talent. Frans Nielsen is on a shit contract, but he didn't completely forget how to score. Mantha, Bertuzzi, Larkin, AA, Hronek, Green, even some of these newer guys like Erne and Perlini, they're not THAT DAMN BAD. Hirose was supposedly a revelation last year and now he's a putz. Tomas Tatar is having career years in Montreal.
Everyone regresses under Blashill. He sucks as a coach.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:00 AM ^
Whenever I listen to Blashill pressers I am struck by how little confidence he inspires in me
November 5th, 2019 at 12:00 PM ^
This is a huge problem for me—I want you as confident as you can get.
November 5th, 2019 at 9:59 AM ^
But I want an overnight turnaround!
November 5th, 2019 at 10:08 AM ^
Good, there is nothing to gain by being mediocre (hello, Pistons and Lions). Better off to completely bottom out and hope a high draft pick pans out.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:16 AM ^
Tanking doesn’t always pay off in the NHL where the team with the worst record only has an 18.5% chance at getting the 1st pick and only about a 50% chance of top 3. You need luck which the Wings seem to have a short supply of.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:26 AM ^
It's not about one pick. And they're not tanking anyway. Tanking implies that there's a conscious effort to lose games. They Wings aren't intentionally losing games 6 weeks into the season. They're just bad.
This is going to take a couple more years to turn over the roster. The Wings are one of the oldest teams in the league. Their younger guys are good. They just need about two more lines worth of that talent level. Hronek looks great. Need a couple more top-end defensemen. It's gonna take time to accumulate that and it doesn't matter if they end up picking #1 or #4.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:38 AM ^
Yeah but getting guaranteed a top 4 pick for the next couple years is a start. I'd rather see the young guys out there struggle and learn before I see another year of Ericsson.
November 5th, 2019 at 10:27 AM ^
Can we talk about Jimmy Howard for a second? I hope his contract is attractive, because he is generally below-par. In the last two games, he's been abyssmal. I hope that when we at least get a glimmer of hope (next year?) we dump him for someone at least decent. You can't build confidence in your decent players - we have a few, anyway - with a giant sieve back there.
"Hey, you're a sieve. You're not a sieve, you're a funnel. You're not a funnel, you're a vacuum. You're not a vacuum, you're a black hole. You're not a black hole, you just SUCK."
An oldie but goodie.
EDITED: Thanks, PP. It's been a while.
November 5th, 2019 at 11:35 AM ^
Funnel comes before vacuum right?