OT: Rafa wins 21
Nadal wins his 21st Grand Slam in 5-set thriller surpassing both Djokovic and Federer in the race to tennis's summit.
The bigger accomplishment for Nadal is now winning twice at every GS tournament, something Djokovic did last year at the French (and Federer never will).
I think Djokovic ends up getting the GOAT award when all is said and done. He's younger, he can win on all surfaces (I don't see Nadal winning another Wimbledon), and he seems less prone to injury. I also think Federer should no longer be in this conversation--he hasn't won any major since the 2018 Aussie.
What say you?
January 30th, 2022 at 10:39 AM ^
Federer absolutely belongs in the conversation- he was winning majors before Nadal and is 5 years older- you can't punish him for being older and not winning recently.
Is he the GOAT? That's debatable, and that's why we have these convos. But he absolutely stays in the convo.
I too think Djoker ends up with the most- he's a year younger and basically never gets hurt. I could see him playing till he's 42- I don't see Nadal maintaining his physical nature and staying healthy past 40.
January 30th, 2022 at 10:48 AM ^
If Federer ends on 20, is he the GOAT? I think the answer is no and that was my point.
I agree re: Djoker. I also think Djoker has a real shot at winning each event 4 times if he continues his breakthrough at the French.
January 30th, 2022 at 10:53 AM ^
Probably not, but I don't think you can say he's not in the conversation.
He's one of the greatest to ever step on the court. RIGHT NOW, I would take him over Nadal simply because Nadal dominated one surface for more than half of his majors, where Roger has more spread out.
If Nadal ends up with a couple more majors, sure, he's clearly the GOAT.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:14 AM ^
Djokovic is currently banned from entering Australia for the next three years. Unless that changes, he won’t be winning there any time soon.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:09 AM ^
Unless one of these other guys goes and gets 25, Roger may forever be considered the GOAT by the majority in the tennis world. As he deserves.
January 30th, 2022 at 5:28 PM ^
Roger beats them all when each are in their prime.
January 30th, 2022 at 4:32 PM ^
Nadal and Djoker could have 10 more slams than Federer but people will still have Fed in the convo bc his style of play appeals way more to people.
The physical style of play that Nadal and Djoker promulgated doesn’t appeal to the masses.
January 31st, 2022 at 8:25 AM ^
I like Nadal and Federer, but it’s hard to compare guys from this era to previous eras.
Sure technology has changed the game. But, prior to Sampras nobody focused on the majors. Nobody even used to show up for the Australian open. Just the Aussies.
Borg won 11 majors before he retired at 26, all at the French Open and Wimbledon. Imagine if he showed up to the Australian open, or played till he was 35. He was in five or six US open finals.
Laver won 2 grand slams. But, when he won his first grand slam, professional players couldn’t even play in the opens. It would’ve been impossible to rack up championships.
January 30th, 2022 at 10:39 AM ^
Asterisk on this one due to Djokovic being denied a chance to complete.
January 30th, 2022 at 10:52 AM ^
Which nobody outside of Belgrade will remember in 10 years.
Rafa has missed 9 Slam events since 2005 (injury). Novak has missed 2 including this one. Would there be an asterisk in your opinion if he didn't compete because Novak was hurt?
January 30th, 2022 at 11:28 AM ^
Fitness and conditioning are some of the most important aspects of tennis. Missing tournaments due to injury is directly related to a player’s ability to consistently maintain a high level of play. Getting deported was Djokovic’s own fault, but it has nothing to do with tennis.
Nadal’s absences were also on hard and grass majors, as he’s (especially recently) seemed to prioritize the clay season and the French Open. Again, directly related to tennis.
Edit: even still, Djokovic’s titles at the French Open would absolutely be less remarkable if he hadn’t had to go through Nadal to get there
January 30th, 2022 at 1:20 PM ^
He wasn’t hurt, that’s the point.
January 30th, 2022 at 1:55 PM ^
Which nobody outside of Belgrade will remember in 10 years.
This one will be remembered - especially if Nadal finishes ahead of him in Slams. I was hoping Medvedev would win today just to not have this be part of the discussion.
January 30th, 2022 at 3:24 PM ^
If this one makes the difference it will be remembered as that time a person that had the chance to be considered the greatest threw it all away because he was an absolute idiot. it won’t be remembered as the time Australia screwed him over outside of Serbia and the tinfoil hat wearing community.
January 30th, 2022 at 10:59 AM ^
You make your own luck.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:01 AM ^
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
January 30th, 2022 at 2:54 PM ^
He had the same chance to compete as Rafa did. Rafa got the vaccine and competed. Djokovic chose not to get the vaccine.
January 30th, 2022 at 5:41 PM ^
Djokovic will always have an asterisk on his record:
- because of all his timely breaks and medical timeouts in big matches after he’s down a set
- because of his disregard for rules including disregard for not smashing balls in anger and then hitting a line person at the Open
- because of his disregard for safety when tournaments were canceled, so he had his own tournament in Belgrade and started a superspreader event
- Three of his slams were during Covid19
- because facts coming out suggest he and the serb govt allegedly committed fraud trying to get him a positive test so he could enter the AO.
Nadal and Federer never used “ugly” game tactics to win a match. They always won with class.
January 30th, 2022 at 8:44 PM ^
-I don’t like the medical timeouts, and I agree that Federer has not employed such gamesmanship throughout his career. However, Nadal employs stall tactics every single match, refusing to play at the server’s pace and frequently taking too long between his serves. Just ask Shapovalov.
-Djokovic was defaulted from a major tournament that he was likely going to win for hitting the linesperson. While it’s reasonable to dislike his on-court demeanor, it’s not an unfair competitive advantage.
-His off-court behavior during the pandemic has been undeniably troubling and has rightly affected his reputation, but it doesn’t have any bearing on his on-court results
-The pandemic has almost certainly hurt rather than helped his major tournament count. He’s won the last three Australian Opens and Wimbledons in which he’s competed and has missed each due to the pandemic
-If his positive Covid result was indeed fraudulent, then I hope Australia sticks to the three year ban. However, again, this has no bearing on his on-court results.
January 30th, 2022 at 10:51 AM ^
I don't know if we can call just one of these players the GOAT.
One of them will probably walk away with the most GS titles, and I'd like it to be Djokovic. But the absolute dominance that all three have maintained over the field has just been incredible. There were so many incredible matchups between them over the years--marathon matches, blowouts, incredible comebacks. It truly has been the golden age of tennis.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:20 AM ^
There will always be head-to-head record arguments and “he only lost due to an injury” along with “…if they both played in their prime”. Hard to pick just one as you look back in tennis history.
Kind of like arguing who’s the best NBA player. Pick anyone and you’ll get arguments that five others are better.
Only Brady is a clear cut choice for NFL QB GOAT (imho).
January 30th, 2022 at 11:32 AM ^
Throw Howe vs. Gretzky vs. Lemieux into that top bucket of hard-to-pick too!
January 30th, 2022 at 11:38 AM ^
I'm a Gretzky is the easy GOAT in that discussion, type guy. Howe, Lemieux, Orr and Maurice Richard all fill out the top 5 with Howe, Lemieux and Orr really battling it out for 2.
January 30th, 2022 at 12:10 PM ^
Lidstrom is in the top 5 all time conversation too!
January 30th, 2022 at 3:27 PM ^
You can make a strong argument that Gretzky is the most dominant athlete EVER! If you took away all of Gretzky's goals, he still is the NHL all time leader in points!
Fyi, I'm not a hockey guy or a Gretzky slappy. But numbers like his don't lie.
January 30th, 2022 at 12:59 PM ^
GOAT NFL RB. Discuss.
January 30th, 2022 at 1:26 PM ^
Walter Payton
January 30th, 2022 at 1:31 PM ^
I'll start by eliminating Emmitt Smith from the list of possibilities. I don't think he's even top 5. To me, Smith is Frank Gore but with the good fortune to have an entire career running behind a great OL.
January 30th, 2022 at 10:56 AM ^
Awesome marathon of a match 5hrs, 24 minutes. The 5th set was world class sports viewing. Both players continuing play at an extremely high level battling fatigue was quite the spectacle. So many multiple deuce games, break points, heroic winners, etc. hats off to to Rafa. King for a day (maybe a few months, a couple of years, or forever?)
January 30th, 2022 at 11:03 AM ^
That's the one thing that drives me crazy about the Aussie (and it's not their fault lol). I feel like this tournament has the most electric matches that I never get to see because they take place at 5 AM.
January 30th, 2022 at 9:01 PM ^
I woke up early west coast time to watch the recorded match before the wife and kids woke up. Half way through the 3rd set my wife comes downstairs earlier than usual, sees the match, and says “Oh. Is this the match that Nadal wins?” I say, “no this is the final. It’s happening now.” She says, “no it’s not. It happened last night. I saw that he won on the internet.” Next time need to just watch it live.
January 30th, 2022 at 2:37 PM ^
Yes, definitely awesome.
I woke up about 5:15 and before dozing back off realized/remembered that the Aussie finals had started.
Who needs sleep anyway (although I did hit the sack to catch up on a couple hours worth once the championship was over!)?
January 30th, 2022 at 11:07 AM ^
Congrats to Rafa on 21! Another epic match, and he's been part of so many over the years.
If you think Roger isn't in the GOAT conversation, you're a lunatic.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:09 AM ^
Rafa is the greatest clay court player. Hands down.
Best overall player ever? Federer has his titles more evenly distributed. He won 6 aussies, 8 Wimbledon, and 5 US. Was able to squeeze a French in there, keeping mind that Rafa was dominating that one event the whole time, finishing runner up the Rafa three times in a row (meaning it’s not like he was losing in the quarters. He was really good on that surface too. Just ran into the greatest clay court player ever)
Rafa lived off the French. He had 13 titles in the French alone, more than half at one tourney.
djokovic is also in the convo, but I just can’t get behind Rafa as the greatest player ever. he just had too much reliance on the clay surface to boost his titles to be best overall. For me, it’s Roger.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:25 AM ^
It's true that Federer's titles are more evenly distributed, but as for who is better between the two I think it's a tougher call. If you take a look at head-to-head record at slams, Nadal is 10-4 against Federer. Take away the six French Open matches and they are 4-4 in the others... not quite the resounding record you would expect based on conventional wisdom.
Also, discounting Nadal's slam tally because he dominated one event is selling him a bit short, given that he still won each of the others at least twice. It's not like he sucked on those surfaces. And the level of dominance he has displayed at Roland Garros should be worth something too, none of the other greats were able to pull that off on any given surface.
Sadly, I think based on on-court results Djokovic is rather clearly the best of the three. He also happens to be, in my eyes, by far the most unlikeable. I also find his style of play the most boring to watch, almost robotic.
So in my eyes I'll stick with Federer and Nadal as my co-GOATS, but I readily admit this opinion is not purely based on on-court results.
January 30th, 2022 at 12:18 PM ^
Nadal has had the challenge of facing both Fed and Djoker during their primes. Fed got a head start and Djoker has racked them up recently as the other two in the triumvirate have aged (although they are both magnificent ageless wonders so to speak).
January 30th, 2022 at 12:40 PM ^
Nadal is less than a year older than Djokovic. Those two have aged together; Nadal was just especially precocious, and Djokovic has had better longevity.
But the age difference with Federer is meaningful.
January 30th, 2022 at 2:29 PM ^
What’s to dislike w Joker? I’ve always found him to be rather eloquent and gracious. Can snap a little now and again but who doesn’t?
January 30th, 2022 at 2:04 PM ^
We need to flip the thinking a little bit here.
Somehow, Rafa's dominance on clay is held against him in the GOAT argument. "Take away all the French Opens and where does that leave Rafa?" the argument generally goes. (The answer is 8 majors, for those keeping score at home.) At the same time, it's overlooked that the US Open and the Aussie are both on hard courts. History shows that 11 of Roger's 20 majors are on hard court (and 12 of Novak's 20). Which means, if you take away hard court victories from Roger, you're left with 9 majors and if you do the same to Novak, you're left with 8 majors. Almost identical as to when you do that to Rafa and his clay court majors.
And just like Roger and Novak ran into the greatest clay court player of all time in Rafa so they didn't win as many French Opens as maybe they would've, for his part Rafa ran into two of the greatest hard court players of all time in Roger and Novak, equally affecting his hard court majors.
Where does that leave us? Rafa has 21 majors and we are all blessed that we got to witness these three transcendent players play at the same time for the last 15 years.
January 30th, 2022 at 5:54 PM ^
Rafa is amazing because of how much he changed his game. He used to hit everything with massive top spin and the high bounces were difficult to return especially on clay. If you watched this match, he’s developed great touch at the net, he can serve and volley, and he mixes up every shot with plenty of slice. That’s what makes him dangerous on every surface.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:11 AM ^
Other things of note about the USA men this tourney:
-Maxime Cressy, who I have been following since the challengers, made it to the Round of 16. He has the most old-school serve and volley game you will ever see and made a match against Daniil. He's young, very powerful, and moves quite well. If he learns a bit more about the flow of the match and diversifies his game a bit, he can be a surprise force that no one saw coming for the US men.
-Fritz also made the round of 16, and took Stefanos to 5 sets. He's finally starting to round into form.
-Korda made it to the 3rd round and lost to Carreno Busta. I personally thought that was a pretty winnable match, but he's very young and he'll only get better.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:17 AM ^
5 years ago I was in Melbourne for another epic 5 set final between Roger and Rafa, which started the comeback tour for both of their careers
January 30th, 2022 at 11:21 AM ^
Going to NYC for the Open has been on my bucket list every year. Ever been to that one before?
January 30th, 2022 at 11:27 AM ^
The US Open is a ton of fun to go to. My suggestion, go during the first week, get tix to the Ashe day session and you have access to every match during the day session and every match except for the Ashe and Louis Armstrong night session matches.
You can easily spend 12+ hours there and see all the tennis you can handle.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:29 AM ^
That's been the plan- I think I would enjoy watching the matches on the smaller courts with the USA men that aren't getting a lot of people. Packing myself into a night time crowd would be fun, but I dunno- I think there's something better about the smaller settings.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:35 AM ^
The smaller courts really get you as close as you possibly can, the Grandstand is an incredible smaller stadium. The new Louis Armstrong has great nightlines.
Have a great time when you do make it!
January 30th, 2022 at 2:34 PM ^
Would agree any chance getting to a smaller court is the best. I’ve gone many times to the Atlanta Open and outer courts are a really cool experience. before they moved downtown there was one court that I was so close I had to move as Denis Kudla went out wide and almost bumped into me in the stands.
January 30th, 2022 at 11:39 AM ^
Yes! I have been extremely lucky to attend and see Roger play at 3 of the 4 (missing the French). Getting a grounds pass to the early rounds of any grand slam is an incredible experience - I could do honestly do it for 14 days straight.
Seeing Roger on Centre Court was a borderline religious experience. Ashe and Laver are both raucous and amazing.
January 30th, 2022 at 2:14 PM ^
I’ll add on to the value of going during the first week of the US Open. You do get to see a lot tennis for your money.
I’ll also throw out a vote for the Masters 1000 series events like Cincinnati. They generally don’t compare to the energy of the US Open, but you also get a lot more access. You can get seats in the first few rows for the same price as mid or upper level seats in NY. You see players walking around the grounds frequently. Access to the practice courts is great. My wife and sat within 10-15’ of Nadal warming up. I stood literally shoulder to shoulder with Kyrgios’ mom standing court side while he warmed up, etc etc.
January 30th, 2022 at 1:43 PM ^
Was rooting for Medvedev based on pace of play. #analysis