OT: PISTONS laugh at celtics
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AoqPeKJ93yz5SFWKUdKhUR45nYcB?slug…
Really Celtics try and trade:
Rondo
Allen
for
Prince
Hamilton
Stuckey
This is why I hate the Celtics! they always overrate their talent and the media buys into it. This would have been worse than Memphis trading Gasol for well nothing.
I saw that article too. That offer's an insult.
talent standpoint, taking into account age, etc. the offer is an insult. But...that $20 million expiring contract (Ray Allen) is awfully valuable in the NBA.
That's a ridiculous offer. I don't think anybody in the Piston's spot would pull for the trade.
Although the expiring contract would be nice, we need to start developing the team and bring in some younger players, not aging vets who will only be with the team for one year. We're gonna have plenty of cap space already when 2010 hits so no need to get more.
Not sayin the Pistons should have taken it...but Rondo is nice. Going forward, he's IMHO the best player in that deal, and not by a small margin. If he ever gets a jump shot, even just a Jason Kidd type jumper, I see him being the best point in the league after Paul.
Deron Williams
Derrick Rose
Tony Parker
I'll give you Rose, but you must not have watched much of the playoffs. Rondo's ceiling is far beyond Tony Parker, and somewhat beyond Williams. Regardless, he is, without a doubt, a better player than Stuckey.
And even on Rose - I saw him play the majority of the season, and I think he'll be a great player - but I watched them play the equivalent of 8 games, head-to-head during the playoffs, and there was not a shred of doubt in my mind of who out-played who (hint: it wasn't Rose).
Finally, for a team that prides itself on defense first, Rondo is a perfect fit.
Rondo had a great run in the playoffs this year, but I still like Deron better over thier careers. I really can't see how you think Rondo will be better than Parker. I hate Parker, but he has great skills and is the clear cut #2 PG in the league right now. Rose is in the AI mold in that he scores and will score throughout his career. I just don't see Rondo keeping his playoff run up in the regular season next year.
I think the thing that sets Rondo apart from Parker is that he's a much, much better defender and rebounder. He's never going to be the same type of scorer, but I think he's capable of doing more to help his team win. The same could be said for Williams and Rose, though I grant that the case for this is shakier.
ive had the pleasure of watching deron williams twice ... and imo he is great and physically impressive ... i wuld take him over rondo any day
i think they have to consider this ... pry say no ... but it would get us off the hook for 2 bad contracts
I don't see why it's so bad.
Rondo is better than Stuckey, and approximately as old. Hamilton is too old to be a part of the next great Pistons team, and they're on the hook for him for three more years. Prince is a thoroughly average player signed for 2 years at $12.5 million a year - something he's not even close to worth. They get to upgrade the 2 guard spot for one year, and then have $20 million to spend.
It's not an issue of "oh, they already have enough space for 2010", it's an issue of "oh, we're paying two average players $26 million for the next 2 years". And Allen's contract is more valuable as a trade chip than Hamilton and Prince are to the Pistons on the floor.
Further, when Garnett went down, Rondo was the best player on a team that started Paul Pierce and Ray Allen - and not by a small margin.
Again, I see why they would turn it down, but it's not an absurd offer.
I don't see why it's so bad.
Rondo is better than Stuckey, and approximately as old. Hamilton is too old to be a part of the next great Pistons team, and they're on the hook for him for three more years. Prince is a thoroughly average player signed for 2 years at $12.5 million a year - something he's not even close to worth. They get to upgrade the 2 guard spot for one year, and then have $20 million to spend.
It's not an issue of "oh, they already have enough space for 2010", it's an issue of "oh, we're paying two average players $26 million for the next 2 years". And Allen's contract is more valuable as a trade chip than Hamilton and Prince are to the Pistons on the floor.
Again, I see why they would turn it down, but it's not an absurd offer.
"Prince is a thoroughly average player signed for 2 years at $12.5 million a year - something he's not even close to worth."
First off, this may all come because I am a biased party, in which I am a major Prince fan.
Think back to when we won the title...(all of the following is credited to the lovely site called wikipedia)...
In the second game of the 2004 Eastern Conference Finals against the Indiana Pacers, Prince made a memorable defensive play.[8] In the final minute of the game, Indiana Pacer star shooting guard Reggie Miller took an outlet pass after an Indiana steal and sprinted up the right sideline for a seemingly uncontested basket that would have tied the score. You take away that a Pistons probably lose to Pacers (which probably would have one that year or at least have an even closer match up had "the brawl" not occurred)...But that didn't happen. Pistons won and go the finals to face the amazing forces of a kid names Kobe Bryant and a giant names Shaq...Do you recall who guarded the best SG in the league? I do. His name was Tayshaun. Without Tayshaun, the Pistons fail to win that year and are in even shittier situation then they are now.
Also, can you imagine how good Tayshaun would be if he had a half decent back up. Tayshaun holds the current streak of games started. You realize how nice that is? To allows have one of the best defensive threats in the game. You put him on the celtics he would like come off bench. He would have such an easier life having to work at the 3 with Pierce...
so don't say he is a thoroughly average player because he is more than that. Put him on a team with one superstar and they can easily at least make it to conference finals IMO.
Think Shane Battier if Tay were to be on Celtics...aka defensive player of the year.
Plus he could be a go-to scorer with that 10-foot baby hook (think Corliss). Average 12 pts and be great defense for 30 min per.
He probably isn't worth all of that money, but to say average player is a guy who averages 10 pts max per game few assists, potential defensive liability and few reb.
and I forgot to mention Gold Medalist...
Trading Prince will not magically undo the past and cause that blocked shot from 2004 to disappear from the record books. Yeah, he's done some good things for the franchise, but it's 2009 and Dumars has to look forward. Prince has plateaued at a near-All Star level and at age 29, is not likely to get better. He should not be untouchable.
I am not saying he is untouchable. I am just saying that he isn't just an average guy. He has started every game for what 4 or 5 seasons now plus playoffs. That is huge wear and tear especially when you lack a quality back up. That is why he dips so much in playoffs. One can't expect him to contain the LeBonBon's of the world to less than 20 pts per. That is just tough to do. He is a legit 3rd option on a good team; however, right now pistons aren't a good team. He shouldn't be untouchable, but he shouldn't be undervalued. 29 is still young in the NBA especially considering he hasn't had any major surgeries or medical problems.
No one is saying he's an average player. He's above average. But he's not a star, and at age 29 he's not likely to show further improvement. (29 isn't old, but it's past the point at which you can expect a player to continue improving. At this point, he's a finished product.) You pretty much know what you're going to get from Prince: 14 points, five boards, a couple assists, pretty good outside shooting, and good (but not incredible) defense. He is a tradeable commodity. If you shop him, you'll get some offers. If a good enough offer comes up, it's worth making the deal.
did you read my first post...in the person I was commenting to said he was average player. Yes he gets you 14 pts 5 boards few assists and good outside shooting. However, it is the little things. He has the ability to take it up court (which you don't see many SF do that...and don't say LeBron because he is truthfully a 4 that can shoot). He has extremely exceptional % for FG and FT. For you to say "good (but not incredible) defense is almost as funny as the trade offer. You realize why he was on Team USA? Defense and Defense alone. He is a great defender.
# 2004–05 NBA All-Defensive Second Team
# 2005–06 NBA All-Defensive Second Team
# 2006–07 NBA All-Defensive Second Team
# 2007–08 NBA All-Defensive Second Team
you know why he is Second team every time. Because Shane Battier gets the nod position for the SF slot. Keep in mind Shane Battier comes off bench and has had better backs up then Tay and can get more rest. Do you realize how many consecutive games Tay has STARTED? Atleast 513. I don't know how many in a row in the 03-04 he start pre-playoffs. (80 out of 82 for that year). Keep in mind I said started. That is almost 19000+ minutes. With no quality back up. He is above average player and a fantastic defender (top 10 in league) year in and year out.
Yes he is tradeable but he needs to not be undervalued like the projected trade
Look - I'm not trying to say he's bad. He's a good guy to have if he's your 3rd or 4th best player. Last time I checked, those guys don't make $11 million - unless they're Tayshaun Prince.
Rondo, IME, is the 2nd coming of Jason Kidd, all be it shorter. Prince DOES have value. But Rondo has more.
Yes for bad teams, their 3rd or 4th option shouldn't make $11... but on good teams that contend they do. Lakers: Odom or Bynum. Celtics: Pierce or Allen. Good teams their 3rd option makes that much. Shitty teams, not so much.
IMO He is better than "average" as you said. He is definitely Above average. I am biased and have loved him because he has been great (dropped to 23rd and is #22 for the 22 teams that past him). I just have a massive erection for him. I don't know why. Maybe it is cause he has legs and arms they don't fit his body which is similar to me IDK. Rondo is great and better, but Tay shouldn't be thrown in to balance a trade
This is ridiculous comparing two players at different positions. I like Rondo he's very good but I like Stuckey more. Stuckey is bigger and has a better jumper. IMO Rondo is better now, but in three years Stuckey will be the better player. As for Tay he is the future of the pistons very good defender and a solid 2nd or 3rd scoring option. You don't trade your future PG, top scorer, and top defender for Rondo and an aging Ray Allen (IMO has the smoothest jumper in the league). I say sign Gordon, and Boozer trade Hamilton and Draft Earl Clark outa Louisville or James Johnson outa Wake Forest.
Oh fuck I just read we traded away Amir Johnson!!! what is Joe Dumars Thinking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
you know why he is Second team every time. Because Shane Battier gets the nod position for the SF slot.
The all-defensive teams aren't that specific. There is no designated SF spot. They just choose two forwards, one center, and two guards.
Anyway, note that Prince did NOT make the all-defensive team this year. I don't think he's quite the defender he used to be. A couple of years ago I would have called him a great one. Now I'd say he's just good.
Shane Battier, Ron Artest and Lebonbon.... all forwards...all better defends. there are 3/4 slots. He was considered top 4 forwards for what 4 straight years. He still received votes I believe. I am not trying to say "Tay is best defender EVER!!!! OMG he is so good. He can defend anyone with his eyes closed". I am more saying he is an amazing defender year in and year out. The way he can alter shots and play off dudes is what makes him that good at defense. So thanks to his limbs being longer than average, he is an amazing defender
He was considered top 4 forwards for what 4 straight years.
Yes, but he no longer is today. We're not talking about the Tayshaun of 2004 or 2006. Prince isn't the defender he used to be. Years of logging heavy minutes and playing deep into the postseason are starting to take their toll on him. He has a much tougher time handling quick opponents than he used to. His offensive game was never built around quickness, so it hasn't dropped off, but his defensive skills are starting to.
"Yes, but he no longer is today. We're not talking about the Tayshaun of 2004 or 2006"
you realize he made second team in 08 right? as in the year before this past year when we were an 8th seed, lost our leader, had AI, Sheed gave up, the team what shit, Mcdyess was gone for a long time, no chemistry, Rip injured and benched, new coach...the list can go on. since he has start he has made second team every year but one...the one that I just listed everything that happened. Also, the beginning of the season...Inwhich the first two months (when AI first came AND RIP went down) he average 14 pts and 7 reb (8.2 in second month)3 ast...then the team started to suck. He was a great player start of last year but everything went wrong for that team. He was constantly the first option. Because AI is the zeroth option because he scores as he chooses even from the bench. Sheed blew and just wanted to jack up 3's, no other big is worth mentioning cause they sucked, Stuckey was being inconsistent and RIP was hurt...He had 3 different coaches (who had experience) and made the 2nd all def team every time but last year and rookie season. Give him a break. Can a guy have a bad year after 6 great years or is that a no? Even with all those problems...or is it still a no? you are entitled to your opinion but i just don't think his skills are starting to drop off as much as you make seem to think
Getting cap space now for 2010 is too big a gamble. Everyone says, oh, Chris Bosh will be a free agent, LeBron will be a free agent, it's a big summer, blah blah blah. What do you do if all those free agents re-sign with their teams, which they can do for more money than they can on the open market due to the NBA's cap rules? Trading for cap space is a great idea, but you do that at the deadline when you have a better idea of who's signing where.
I don't think Ray Allen is an upgrade over Rip at all, and (and partially because) Allen is three years older. Rondo is still an immature headcase at times. Tayshaun might not do any one thing especially well, but he's as well-rounded a player as you'll find in the league.
Having cap room is never a bad thing. If the stars all resign next year, fine - then don't sign anyone for megabucks, and keep the cap room until 2011. As for waiting until the deadline, it's entirely possible that by the time February rolls around, the available deals will be hard to come by, and not very appealing.
that Tay is signed to is by no stretch a major contract in the NBA. I think he is a bargain as $6 million per year. That is essentially the same dollar value as the mid-level exception...
Prince made $9.5 million last season and is going to make around $11 million next year.
misread the original post...
Rondo alone is better than those deadbeats. Why the hell are the Celtics thinking of a trade, we are going to dominate next year. Bwahahahaaa
The deal sucks but maybe the Pistons could work out a way to get Rondo. He's a Piston underneath: tough, aggressive, defensive. He makes other people on the team play harder. It's true, his J sucks, but at the point he's more a distributor than a scorer.
Rondo and Stuckey are about the same in my mind. Rondo had a great run in the playoffs but they are both super quick with poor jumpers. Stuckey has one less year or experience starting and one less year in the league. Stuckey is bigger and stronger, Rondo quicker. I think they are a wash. Allen and Hamilton are also equivalent, in my mind. Allen has a better three point shot, Hamilton is taller and a little better off screens. Hamilton is younger and healthier but Allen has a better trade value.
The insult is Prince. A borderline all star and core of the next Piston team as the elder veteran that can't be just thrown into a deal.
It's interesting to hear anyone in the Detroit market defend Tayshaun Prince. I have thought he and Stuckey should be the core the Pistons build around this time, but most people at mlive and freep.com are pretty ruthless when it comes to assessing Tay.
Even the media seem to think Tay is gone, with many predicting that they will take Earl Clark, whose game and build are quite similar to Tay. I always looked at Tay as an "x-factor" kind of player. He looks strange on the court, but seems to be pretty good at making crucial plays and does a little bit of everything.
Tay and Stuckey would be a decent start for a good team if Joe starts buying up FA's.
Taking into consideration just talent and expiring contracts, I think this would actually be a good trade for the Pistons. They'd get one of the best young PGs in the game and a huge expiring contract. Sure, a Rondo/Allen backcourt wouldn't be enough to get them anywhere next season, but they'd be in good position to sign a couple huge free agents in 2010.
However, Joe D already signed a guy to a hometown discount contract and traded him a year later (Chauncey); it seems like bad form for him to do it again to Rip. Also, Rondo is a punk. The thought of him in a pistons jersey leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And, I don't like the thought of putting all their eggs in the 2010 free agency class, since so many other teams are doing that, and there are only so many free agents to go around.
Living in Boston, it would be fun to have a bunch of ex-Pistons here so I could root for the local team, though...
Allen - 34, expiring contract (hey now!). $18m off the books.
Rondo - 24, rookie contract. $1.6m, due for a raise.
---------
Hamilton - 31, expiring contract. $11.4m.
Prince - 29, two years. $11.1m
Stuckey - 23, two years (w/ 3rd QO). $1.8-$2.8-$3.8m over the next three seasons.
The Pistons gain $7 million in expiring contracts by swapping Hamilton for Allen.
The rest of the trade, then, is essentially Stuckey and Prince for Rondo straight up. The Pistons would not save any money on this chunk of the trade, considering Rondo's rookie contract expires at the end of the 09/10 season and he'll certainly get more than $1.3 million. The Pistons would be getting rid of two guaranteed years of $13.9 million and a qualifying offer of $3.8 million in 10/11.
That's about $7 million a year for two years, plus the $7 million the Pistons saved in the Allen/Hamilton swap. Meaning the Pistons offer to Rondo at the end of next season would be 3 years at $7 million a year.
If Dumars thought he could sign Rondo for less than $7 million a year, he would have pulled the trigger. He obviously didn't.
I don't think this trade is as absurd as some do, but in order to pull it off, Ainge had to assume that the Pistons valued Rondo at $7 million, which is a little ridiculous.
a surreal moment while reading this post...I had my I-Pod (>10,000 songs) on shuffle, and as soon as I read the first sentence in this post, as I got to the parenthetical (hey now!) the chorus of the Oasis song Hey Now! started up...It was totally a Pink Floyd / Wizard of Oz moment.
I plan on spending my next several Friday nights reading Big Boutros mgoblog comments and seeing if they sync up in any meaningful way with songs on my I-Pod.
I don't think there are that many songs about farts.
That would be considered a complete rebuild. I'm almost for it since our guys don't seem to have any chemistry with Chauncey gone.
If by chemistry you mean "any sort of adequate point guard play on a team where NO ONE can create their own shot" then I'll buy it.
If you take Prince out of that trade, it is certainly intriguing.
Us getting Ray Allen would give us a solid 3 pt. Pick up Bosh or Boozer, UH OH.
The only good potential...would be to sign boozer or a quality big (david, millsap, maybe memo...NOT marion). Then still have money maybe for another veteran or other free agent this year (maybe ben gordon but I don't know). You'd probably have at best a 5th-8th seed or lottery bound team. However, Rayray would come off books and their'd be potential to have a starting five with Rondo, Ben Gordon (if they sign him), FA or drafted 3, boozer (or other), and bosh...plus a decent bench...In a few years I'd like that, but I think Tay is too valuable and is always undervalued in trades
This actually sounds like one of those trades I would always try and pull off in my fantasy leagues when I'm in last place 1/2 way through the season - Try and trade your whole team for the team in first place. Hey, maybe they will hit the wrong button and you'll get lucky!
decent strategy in a keeper league. Last place always makes trade at deadline of 3-4 decent guys not always keepers but maybe 1 is for like a top 10 guy...aka this year I trade a large chunk of my team for Brandon Roy which i trade for straight up Danny Granger
Yeah same here. There was a guy in my fantasy hockey league from work who must have enjoyed making trades because he sure didn't realize what the hell he was doing.
I would think if they made this trade, they'd do it to trade Allen either before the season or mid-season for a guy like Bosh or Amare.
Stupid to turn that deal down. Rondo could be combined with two other elite talents with the cap space we'd get in 2010. This would just be sacrificing our 2009 season to put ourselves in position for another title run in 2010.
What makes you think cap space guarantees us two elite talents? Who's to say those elite talents won't be re-signing with their current teams?
How many of these 'elite' talents will actually ever hit the open market? Maybe one or two, and it is highly questionable if even one, let alone two, of them will sign with the 'stones.
Could happen, but that is putting an awful lot of your eggs in a very flimsy basket.