Final piece to the 2004 team, though he was hurt during the Finals.
gambling establishment etc
Final piece to the 2004 team, though he was hurt during the Finals.
Although he wasn't the same player when he arrived, T-Mac
Billups was a FA signing, if that counts.
I think that was his sixth team in six years when he signed with Detroit and was still only an 11PPG scorer for his career. That's not a big signing. That's a good signing that Chauncey turned into a great signing since we finally gave him a chance to play his game. You can argue that Ben Gordon was more highly regarded when the Pistons signed him than Chauncey was.
I believe you're wrong about Monroe, he is no complimentary piece, the thing he has over Drummond is a mid range. Gores is a douche, he didn't allow Dumars to choose a coach, Dumars didn't want Frank, that was all Gores.
Even the Kuester hire wasn't Joe's fault, the Davidson family didn't give him much money to find a coach
.........because Joe was paying several coaches the he had fired.
He has three jobs
So it was his own fault he had a short budget
When Bill Davidson died (r.i.p) his family had zero interest in the team, so when they started trying to sell the Pistons they put a freeze on the team funds. Joe had no choice but to hire a low end coach
He wasn't exactly a big name / big contract guy.
Who hired him?
When they hired Keuster they were paying Sauders, Curry and Keuster.
Joe hired him with limited resources, if you haven't heard.
Dumars takes a lot of heat, but when he came in, he turned a bad team into a contender in no time. Then Bill Davidson forced Larry Brown out, and Dumars was forced to hire the best guy available at the time -- Flip Saunders. Once it was clear Flip wasn't able to win a title like Brown would've (at least one more time), Dumars made some bad panic moves and ended up stuck with them because of the Karen Davidson freeze. Then Gores forced him to hire Frank, which was an obvious bad move at the time.
Nearly every single other GM in the NBA would've taken Darko with the 2nd pick in that draft. There were a couple who would've taken him ahead a Lebron, and a few who would've taken Melo 2nd, but that's it. Melo will clearly never win a title. It's not like there was someone else out there who would've taken Bosh or Wade with that pick anyways, so it's just stupid to keep bringing it up.
From having lived in the Detroit area in the past, I think the criticism of Dumars has a lot to do with race. A lot of white people that live in the Detroit suburbs are basically Kentuckians (I'm white, I can judge free from accusations of racism). These same people are probably the ones excited about Phil Jackson. Jackson is an arrogant pseudo-intellectual who would only lead this team deeper into the hole. Hopefully Gore wises up, stops listening to dumb, hateful suburbanites, and lets Dumars handle the basketball stuff.
Did you not watch any games this year?
And Bynum off the bench
The reasoning behind drafting Darko was that we already had Tayshaun. While Melo has put up great numbers, I don't think he was mature enough to have led us to another title. I'm pretty sure Melo would've left or complained about leaving just like he did in Denver.
I wouldn't go around throwing that accusation about Dumars/race. I think the Piston fans that blame Joe got spoiled during the Bad Boys and Bad Boys II eras, don't follow basketball fully, and can't understand that this is not a FA destination. Joe has always been loved in this area and I believe he has great crossover appeal, not alienating any person with his actions. Anyone getting a boner about Jackson see the rings and that's it.
Gores, never liked the guy. Something feels unauthentic about him, and this is a town that likes those guys who appear to love the area. There's a reason why Brandon Inge is still loved by so many. Same reason why people respect Mr. Ilitch. They want this area to succeed.
People also fail to realize that if the Pistons had selected Melo, a trade for Sheed would have been unlikely, so they probably wouldn't have won the title.
Do you understand that every team in the league wanted Darko? It wasn't a stupid pick. Sometimes it just doesn't work out.
I agree that a certain set of the Pistons fans who blame Joe aren't one who follow basketball fully, but I don't think the "not FA destination" thing promoted in the media really carries much weight. It was just Kobe, and he kinda needs LA.
I'll also clarify that the set of the Pistons fans who blame Joe based on race are blaming him because it's difficult for them to deal with a black person having success in an executive-looking position. It doesn't fit the stereotypes they rely on to deal with their insecurities through general presumptions that they're better than a certain group of others. So they respond to that by projecting. Just like all the other posters who replied to my first post over-dramatically quite obviously really needed to project the feelings that made them uncomfortable onto me in their replies, rather than face who they truly are.
I also agree on Gores. Really, he just seems like someone who isn't all that intuitive but can't accept it and is getting in the way by trying really hard to compensate (obviously I'm judging solely on his bball decisions). Still, he'll have my underwavering support if he goes hands off and doesn't care too much about the luxury tax.
I do not understand why you are so convinced of this racial connection to criticism of Dumars. Again, I don't get the sense that black fans are any more supportive of the guy than white fans are. Moreover, when the Pistons went to six straight Eastern Conference finals, I didn't know anyone who thought he was a bad GM. At most, some thought he wasn't a great drafter but made up for it with good trades/FA signings.
Criticism of Dumars is far more widespread today than it was 5-6 years ago. This is correlated with the Pistons being terrible on the court over that time. That isn't shocking. In this business, people who don't perform take a lot of flack. I haven't totally thrown in the towel on the guy, but I can understand why others might.
Throwing Detroit area white people AND Kentuckians under the bus. Accusing both of being racists.
You sir, are a tool.
...You got real amped up enough about a message board post to post a reply that takes things out of context and adds something extra corny like, "you sir, are a tool." Also, generalizations in my statements probably aren't worth an over-dramatic, sorority girl "wow" response. "OMG! He just threw sorority girls under the bus too!"
I've lived a number of places, and nothing compares to the level of racism I encountered dealing with Detroit suburbanites. They'd always just say these "those people" type of comments to me like I was automatically on board with it because I was white. I remember I used to sometimes even get that occassionally at Michigan, and I'd always be like "wtf, I thought smarter people were supposed to go here." And it would always turn out those students were from the Detroit suburbs.
I think the criticism of Dumars has a lot to do with race. A lot of white people that live in the Detroit suburbs are basically Kentuckians (I'm white, I can judge free from accusations of racism). These same people are probably the ones excited about Phil Jackson.
Whoa. I'm not even that critical of Dumars, but I think this is patently unfair. The Pistons have been terrible for a few years now. It's not unreasonable for people to wonder if Joe D is the right guy for the job. Besides, I'm not sure he's that popular among black fans, either.
Also, your analysis of the origins of the white population isn't very accurate. Downriver, maybe. But I grew up in the northern suburbs and didn't know anyone whose family was from the South. I'm pretty sure most of the white population of the Detroit area is descended from early 20th-century immigrants. All the paczki-eating folks are not transplanted Southerners.
And why would it be "racist" to support Jackson, a guy who's won 11 NBA championships? How many titles does he have to win before people conclude that he's a good coach? It's worth noting that Jordan, Pippen, Shaq and Kobe have won a combined total of one championship when not coached by Jackson.
From having lived in the Detroit area in the past, I think the criticism of Dumars has a lot to do with race.
Dude, when did you leave the metro area - 40 years ago?
If you think support/opposition to Dumars falls along racial lines, you're badly misinformed. Just go to the Detroit News website and look at the comments below the articles on him - you can see the Facebook profile pictures of the people commenting.
At all the people who took that all extra real personally enough to post dramatic "I'm offended" replies on a message board...It was just a few years ago, and I have no qualms in my assessment of the general character traits I encountered.
To accuse someone of racism in this day and age is like calling someone a Communist during the 1950s. It's practically the harshest thing you can say about someone nowadays. Once someone gets labeled "racist," it's really hard for them to shed that label. So you should be careful tossing it around cavalierly.
It sounds like you no longer live in the area, so perhaps you aren't as tuned in as you believe. We're talking about a franchise that hasn't posted a winning season in five years, and hasn't made the playoffs in four. Criticism of team management should not be unwarranted.
Because "racist Kentuckians" love "arrogant pseudo-intellectuals?" Huh?
Jackson mocked Craig Sager's tie in a real a-holish way in a post-game interview (missing the obvious joke), it's clear he's someone to whom small-minded folks probably could relate.
Because that really doesn't make any sense.
The Dumars era is old and stale. He had some good years, but he should have been gone this year to help speed up the eventual change process that is coming.
You know Jackson is married to the Lakers' soon-to-be majority owner, right?
Considering how long it's taken for them to get to that step, I wouldn't be surprised if it takes 10+ years to walk down the aisle.
Jon Gruden was spotted at a Jimmy johns in auburn hills.
He's the next HC. BKFinest it.
The only knock I have towards Dumars was the firing of Frank. They pretty much drained the roster of any serious, playoff talent off the bench setting up for tons of cap space this year and then fired the coach. Frank was working with a team that needed Charlie V kin the roster, a guy who got beat out by a <19 year old for the Dominican Olympic team.
or was trying to get fired. He was hardly in a position to make contract demands after this season and did anyway.
Nothing any team does matters until LeGlobal Icon is out of the league.
It's like when Jordan was in his hey-day. If you're going to be bad, might as well be now, because no one else is winning a title for awhile anyway. Better than being the Utah Jazz or Suns and having good teams when you're going to lose to the Bulls every year.
For reference in this discussion, here is an article from NBA.com which contains portions of the Pistons' formal press release on the subject of hiring Phil Jackson as an advisor - LINK
"“Phil’s role is to advise Joe, Tom and the ownership team, not to assume a formal position inside the Pistons organization,” Barnhill said."
That quote would seem to fit with Jackson's plan to re-insert himself into the NBA, at least to date. There's also been some discussion about Jackson at least listening to the Toronto Raptors about their Basketball Operations position here - LINK
"Jackson, 67, is not actively seeking a return to the NBA as a coach, but rather would covet a leading role in shaping a franchise from the coaching staff to personnel decisions. According to the person familiar with Jackson's plans, he is keeping his options open but seems to prefer a role similar to Jerry West's advisory role with the Golden State Warriors over a team presidency in the Pat Riley mold."
Nobody really seems to know. There is some vauge speculation that teams as diverse as Charlotte and Minnesota have at least inquired, or tried to do so. Phil Jackson mentioned in a San Fransisco Chronicle article that he has been approached by a few teams to be their operational head.
Phil is going to make a couple of phone calls on behalf of Mr. Gores. He'll get a few rejections, and tell Tom that he did the best he could. End of chapter.
I'm just hoping everyone starts a thread with their thoughts on the situation. Why clutter up the original thread?
How old is Phil? Plus, his last days with the Lakers were plagued with health problems and his first sweep he'd ever suffered (to Dallas)
I don't know if he'd help as a coach. I read the other day the Pistons were looking at a Spurs assistant. Sure, they've hired assistants before, and retreads, but I think they should hire another assistant and give him a chance.
Pistons have fallen a long way from that team I grew up watching though, with Chauncey and Rip and Tay and Sheed. Those were the good days.
DEEEEEEEEE-TROIT BASKETBALL (TM)
needs to be on Lettermans Top Ten list...things Phil Jackson would rather do than anything involving the Pistons.
Opinion noted but this is almost literally never going to happen. He built his career on the backs of SUPERSTARS in major markets (Chicago & LA). He would coach of have anything do do with: The Heat and I'd even go with the Clippers and Oklahoma before the Lakers again based on their mess. The guy will only go where he has the pieces already in place to win. He isn't this amazing coach/BB mind everyone makes him out to be. Shit, Brown is a better overall BB mind/coach than Jackson. It helps when you've only coached Jordan, Pippen & Co along with Kobe, Shaq & Co ALL in their prime, btw. He retired and truly would have taken the Lakers job earler (IMO) but they botched that and I'm sure Phil is happy considering nobody in the lockeroom is healthy or gets along.
Why are so many people in a rush to downplay Jackson's accomplishments? He's coached 20 seasons in the NBA and won championships in 11 of them. That is incredible. He's not the only coach who's had superstar players. You could turn it around the other way: players under Jackson seem to always reach their potential and buy into his system. Those are two signs of good coaching. Not to mention that these same players never seem to win anything when he isn't coaching them.
The guy is a great coach! I'm not saying he isn't in the top 3 living HCs in (or out) the game. I just think that people constantly calling him "the best NBA coach/mind ever" (or even alive now) is ignorant. The guy always coached with not just superstars but the absolute best players in the league IN THEIR PRIME. Jordan & Pippen could have won titles with the rest of the team being all 6th men (basically did). Then they get the most prolific rebounder in the game in Rodman, haha. Once that is gone he "retires" to then see Shaq go to the Lakers with Kobe Bryant. He turns down just about every other job, says he is done coaching only to pull a Saban and take the Laker job as soon as they called. Why? Kobe was hitting his absolute athletic prime and was basically a Jordan clone and Shaq was in his absolute prime and was, well, Shaq. Again, a team you could have filled with 6th men and won titles with. Great coach but not at all deserving of the overwhelming attention he gets. He was a product of the teams he coached and then left when the wheels started wobbling. Should he take a job without a TRUE superstar (maybe 5-10 in the entire NBA) at the Guard or Center position (had both at Chicago & LA) he will lead just about any team to the playoffs but that's about it. I'll end by saying that making it to the NBA playoffs is not a tough thing to do. When you can go .400 and make the playoffs it shows what kind of league it is. Yet, I respect your opinion and point. No offense.
Because he's never really developed a team or coached one that had to overachieve. Guys like Larry Brown get credit because they take teams with less talent and do more with them. Or guys like Chuck Daly who are around as the team builds. Heck, even Riley coached the Knicks between stints at LA and Miami.
To say everyone has superstar players is to understate what he's had. Only the best player of all time, maybe the next best shooting guard of all time after the first guy, and one of the top 3 or 4 centers of all time (And if you believe the hype train, another guy who was one of the top 50 players of all time). And some of them with more than one of those guys.
He walked in right when the Bulls were ready to peak, and took over the Lakers again after they had amassed all that talent. The latter because he could. NBA lifers take jobs and coach teams that aren't loaded. He never has. So we'll never know if he can really coach up teams without talent, or he was just really great at managing the biggest of egos and allowing them to succeed.
Agree 100% with that.
The Pistons organization has become. Seriously, what the hell are they paying the GM for if they need to keep bringing in consultants? It's even worse that it's a former bitter rival and king douche. It's been obvious that Joe D needed to be canned years ago but Gores obviously can't pull the trigger so instead he comes up with this half assed solution? What a joke.
Is going to have a stretch when they struggle. I think a great comparison to us is the current celtics. The had a team that won the title, they aged, held on to their core too long, and are now forced to redo their roster. We're in better shape than them because we have a GM who is actually good at drafting players, unlike Danny ainge