OT: NCAA says it's not their job to ensure academic integrity
I just saw an article on CNN where the NCAA says it's not their job to ensure academic integrity of its member institutions. This is in response to the UNC academic scandal.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/01/sport/ncaa-response-to-lawsuit/index.html
I actually somewhat agree with the NCAA here. It's the National Collegiate Athletic Association. They deal with athletics. They are not there to govern how each school runs its classes, gives out grades, etc. Ultimately, I think it should be the institution itself that makes sure its professors, administrators, students, etc. are pulling their weight and upholding academic integrity.
Students are members of all kinds of organizations (student government, fraternities, sororities, etc.). No other organization is responsible for making sure that their president of student government or their random pledge of a fraternity is going to class, actually earning his passing grade, etc. I don't really see why the NCAA should be any different.
Beat me to it. With all the lip service they give to STUDENT-athletes, this is making the case they're irrelevant for their stated purpose.
But when schools are committing academic fraud (Hello, North Carolina) to specifically keep athletes eligible to play in revenue sports, isn't that directly under the NCAAs jurisdiction?
Oh wait. I see nothing! Nothing!
I would be absolutely furious. Talk about diluting the value/perception of a degree.
This wasn't just athletes over a short period. Over 3000 kids got As with no effort put in at all.
Hopefully this is the final straw that breaks the NCAAs back.
(linked article is deadspin, but it is a decent summary of the Wainstein report).
http://deadspin.com/unc-investigation-reveals-widespread-academic-fraud-1649405561
don't think that UNC is anywhere close to alone on this though. Getting a college degree may seem "easy" to those that grew up in families that place value on education, but getting a degree is not objectively easy to people who may have not place any value on education really at any point during their lives. Sometimes I am watching a game, particularly in the SEC and sometimes the ACC, and I see a player or watch an interview with a player who, quite literally, cannot form a coherent sentence to answer a question, let alone grasp the subtleties of the question and its context. Some of these players literally cannot be passing college courses, or really having any meaningful participation in them. That is when the product becomes transparently fraudulent, and when even I have a hard time reconciling how I can continue to subscribe to the product without a certain degree of reprehension.
Everyone talks on campuses in regards to which class is easier, which professor or TA is a more lenient grader.
I don't see a problem with this, or with academic advisors steering student athletes to easier classes, especially in-season.
But this is Katzenmoyer-failing golf-esque. You really cannot justify or even tolerate giving out "As" for nothing. I had a couple of independent study classes at Michigan, but this was a research project that I wrote a grant for, performed the experiments (12 hour protocol AFTER a 6 week surgical model on rats), collated the data, wrote an abstract, and presented it. It was damn hard work.
An after game interview is a notoriously bad way to judge the intelligence of a person. You just had you adrenaline pumping for playing athletics, are coming off an either extreme high or low and have probably just pushed your body to its absolute limit. Not to mention public speaking and speaking in front of a camera can mess anybody up. Your conclusions reek of pre-conceived notions of what intelligence should sound like.
CalTech definitely has no academic integrity, they must be punished!!!
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/caltech-teams-faces-majo…
The NCAA and their leadership seriously confuses me --- they do seem to lack a "unifying principle" among all their various actions/inactions.
Here's your unifying principle: they bully whoever they can bully and look the other way for schools that can fight back. The only time a UNC or UK is going to get punished is if the evidence is so ironclad and public that they have to do something. Even then, they make excuses like they are in the UNC case whenever they can.
It only seems like they are uttlery irrational when you look at the results.
Yes , but they constantly stress that they must maintain the integrity of the sport, vis-a-vis "amateurism". So, they obsess over the idea of the "student-athlete" but it when comes to making sure the athletes are actually students and getting a legitimate education, they don't want anything to do with it. I guess there's no money in a power forward passing his English lit courses...
"Yes , but they constantly stress that they must maintain the integrity of the sport, vis-a-vis "amateurism"."
Amateurism and student-athletes are not the same thing. The amateurism portion of college football is at least partially intended to create parity. Otherwise, players would go to the highest bidder, which would be the Alabamas, Ohio States, Michigans, etc. of the world. All the good players would go there, and the sucky players would be left for the teams who can't afford it.
Naturally, the National COLLEGIATE Athletic Assocation is going to govern student-athletes. There's no way around it. Just like Kappa Kappa Gamma is going to include college students. But it doesn't mean they have to govern everything concerning those students.
handing down sanctions in the Sandusky scandal at Penn State?
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand your point. NCAA should very much involve themselves in anything that involves the intergrity of the Student athlete or the programs whom they represent. . .
Weren't those sanctions rescinded? I thought that was sort of an admission that they overstepped their bounds.
In fact, in some leaked emails they even questioned what kind of authority they had to hand down the punishment.
They brought down the hammer and hoped Penn State would accept it.
Magnus, you say that "the amateurism portion of college football is at least partially intended to create parity. Otherwise, players would go to the highest bidder."
I agree, but allowing flagrant academic fraud disrupts parity too. It creates an advantage in recruiting (those who don't want to "play school") and in maintaining eligibility (at upright schools bad students are academically ineligible, at UNC classes apparently were like kiddie-kicker soccer - everyone's a winner).
Allowing academic fraud is cheating, it's intentional, and it's material. And the NCAA should enforce instances of cheating. Especially when it's institutional.
I think the line has to be drawn somewhere. There are numerous things that draw students to play for a certain school. Money would be the most obvious one. I don't think "You can take easy classes" is anywhere near the draw of money. Girls are another draw, but the NCAA can't regulate how many pretty girls there are on campus.
There don't appear to be any governing bodies covering the whole $500 handshake thing, which is I think where the NCAA has to step in. Otherwise, there's a complete void, because it's not illegal for a rich guy to hand a college kid money. However, there are deans, professors, academic counselors, etc. who are in place to manage academic fraud.
You say the line has to be drawn somewhere but a few posts up you said, "It doesn't mean they have to govern everything concerning those students." Also, a professor in the article and some posters below say the same about how the NCAA can't regulate every interaction between atheletes and their schools, but no one is saying they should. It's an awful straw man argument. The NCAA can't regulate everything so apparently they should regulate nothing. Yes, there are deans and professors and what not, but football programs have position coaches, coordinators, head coaches, ADs, academic tutors, etc., so should the NCAA not get involved with regulating football programs, perhaps in regard to allotted practice time?
This is all the more laughable of course because the NCAA explicitly time and again says giving the athletes an education is the number 1 mission of the organization. So, like the guys in Office Space say, what's the NCAA's job if it's to ensure an education without getting involved at all with education?
Besides which, no one is saying the NCAA needs to step in and start running UNC's academics, but that they just should punish the schools who don't live up to their educational requirements.
"Yes, there are deans and professors and what not, but football programs have position coaches, coordinators, head coaches, ADs, academic tutors, etc., so should the NCAA not get involved with regulating football programs, perhaps in regard to allotted practice time?"
So...the National Collegiate Athletic Association shouldn't govern athletics? I know you're trying to make a point, but it's a very weak one.
go to those teams anyway, unless they have some childhood favorite they want to play for?
Maybe there should just be three requirements:
1) You can only offer 25 4 year scholarships a year (or 23 or whatever number gets you to 85 with normal attrition and 5th year extensions on average) - schools can apply for a waiver if there are unusually high attrition for reasons not associated with NCAA violations.
2) The STUDENT-Athletes have to take a minimum number of credit hours during the season, and a course load off season that allows them to graduate in 4 years, while maintaining above a minmum GPA
3) STUDENT-Athletes who are in the lower 25 percentile of the incoming Freshman class are not eligible to play until they pass a set of NCAA member prescribed and accredited prep-courses, or their Sophomore year, which ever comes first. They can practice. They get an extra semester of scholarship and course load requirements. (i.e., if they have to take prep-courses - they get an extended scholarship andand extension on the credit hour requirement.)
Stuff like money under the table (which needs to come above table to avoid point shaving / game fixing and other concerns), money for ads or autographs, faux summer jobs, loaner cars, tats, etc. - it doesn't matter because schools can only take so many players a year. (Let these guys make what they can because most will not make the League.)
Maintain but simplify recruiting rules, number of coaches, drug and PED testing, etc.
Well, I think MOST of the really good players go to those schools. Occasionally you get good prospects with good offers who end up at other schools for various reasons (they feel comfortable, they know people going there, they make a good connection with the coach, etc.). You can't really fight the fact that highly successful players want to attend the highly successful programs. But if you throw in thousands of dollars of booster pay, that probably throws things way out of whack. There are upstarts in college football (Boise State, TCU, Baylor, etc.) who aren't traditional powerhouses but have been able to work their way up the ranks. If you throw money into the equation, Baylor might not be able to get some of the guys they have in recent years.
Bullshit. They have all sorts of requirements for eligibility for the athletes. They sit there and make sure high school athletes have their transcripts in order with qualifying classes, or the athlete doesn't play. Why do they have these requirements then?
I'm normally very, very slow to criticize the NCAA. But this is a steaming pile of bullshit. Out of one side of their mouth they talk academics first, "most of our players go pro in something other than sports," and build a whole case against player compensation on academics. Now they're afraid of getting sued because one of their schools went rogue, they're too scared to punish that school, and they don't want to fork out for their negligence.
Fucking A right they're responsible for the academic integrity of their schools. I think the schools kicked out of the basketball tournament for APR sanctions like oh say UConn would agree.
Horseshit. They just don't want to punish a golden boy school for running a diploma mill.
NCAA's requirement is that the athlete is a student in good standing.
It is up to the individual college to make sure that they are providing good education.
NCAA does not have the responsibility to make sure colleges are doing their job. That is what accreditation organizations are supposed to do.
They need to couch their argument much more narrowly, and then I'd agree. Can they actually operate the departments at their member schools? No. Can they use carrots and sticks to ensure academic integrity? Yes, they can, and they do.
Here's the argument I'd buy from them: "The NCAA uses all available tools to ensure the integrity of the academic experience its athletes receive. When we find that an institution is not living up to our standards, we take appropriate action, and are doing so in this case. However, the NCAA is not in the business of operating the academic departments at each individual member institution, which is by agreement of the same member institutions. The athletes' agreements are with the schools themselves and therefore the ultimate responsibility lies with the schools themselves."
But that would be laying UNC out to dry, which they're scared to do, so they scurry under the blanket statement of "no legal responsibility to ensure the academic integrity" of the schools. Which is crap, because the schools give the NCAA plenty of authority to do so.
You said it man
Double POst (but I guess, you could say that again)
I agree with most of Magnus's post, but cumong NCAA. It's one thing to say it's not your job to monitor academic integrity. OK - for the reasons Magnus cites.
But once you have compelling evidence of a school fostering academic fraud to give student athletes a competitive (in sports) advantage? That's cheating, plain and simple. And it's institutional, plain and simple. So do your freakin' job and mete out some punishment here, and make it severe. Otherwise you further cement the notion that the NCAA is a joke.
So to the extent they're offering this up as cover for not going hard after UNC, I suspect ipecac sales will plummet around the rest of the country (and 2/3rds of the Research Triangle, for that matter).
Look here, my job description states "paint white line". Not part of my job to address an hazards that may arise.
If you go to Thailand, you'll see more than half of a lane with a line like that going around a still living tree. OK OK, not the safest, but I also kinda like that they'd preserve the tree. The above photo is especially hilarious since it's just dead wood. Probably could have just shoved it out of the way in a few seconds.
is a crock. They always take the path of least resistance. Take the Penn State child sexual abuse scandal. They vacate wins for lack of integrity (and loss of institutional control) among the leadership at PSU, then they restore them when they get sued by Pennsylvania.
We need a new organization to oversee college sports. The one we have is broken and I can't see it fixing itself from within.
during his Penn State sanctions press conference:
"Our constitution and bylaws make it perfectly clear that the association exists not simply to promote fair play on the field but to insist that athletic programs provide positive moral models for our students, enhance the integrity of higher education and promote the values of civility, honesty and responsibility. "
Actions speak louder than words. Kinda bullshit to be talking about values and integrity when your staff is either raping, or covering up the rape, of little boys for over a decade.
I know you're getting some flack, but the primary responsibility for academic integrity lies with the college/university and the accrediting agency. The UNC scandal today, Univ. of Georgia scandal in the early 80s happened because the universities put athletics above their academic mission. The NCAA has to deal with the fallout because such misbehavior does give a school an unfair athletic advantage, but that's mop up duty really.
NCAA cannot monitor the quality of education. That is what accreditation organizations are supposed to do. NCAA must hold UNC accountable for mis-representing the education it was providing, but it does not owe these former students anything.
If we want to be angry, we should be angry at the accreditation organization for not punishing UNC harshly for this fraud to discourage this kind of behavior from other universities.
This issue goes WAY beyond athletics.
this surprises anyone
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The NCAA exists to make sure that athletes (Sorry. Student-athletes) are in no way compensated for what they do. Whether in cash, room and board, Taco Bell money, or cream cheese. Bagels are OK.
The student part of "student-athlete"? Eff that, let the schools take care of it.
I don't really get what you're suggesting. Is the NCAA supposed to employ people at every school who will pop into Rashad McCants' Swahili class, make sure he's there, and look over all his homework?
but they are supposed to give two shits when a flagship institution in a revenue sport has enough rampant, massive educational fraud that directly kept student-athletes eligible to play that the Feds are investigating misuse of federal dollars.
That is not what this lawsuit is about. This is a lawsuit from former student athletes that are saying it is NCAA's fault that they did not receive a proper education. That is not NCAA's job.
as well due to academic fraud, federal funding of the AA studies department.
http://www.shfwire.com/academic-fraud-could-cost-unc-millions-in-federal-student-aid/
Exactly.
written into the NCAA's bylaws. The association has been acting on academic fraud violations and accusations of same for at least two decades. I can see why they might want to get out, but no one can say they were never in. The question, however, did and does remain the same--are the public and universities themselves going to end academic fraud and maintain any consistent standard or not? Waiting for the NCAA to establish or maintain standards. . . waiting for Godot.