OT - Lions shouldn't draft Suh (not April Fool's article by Caputo)
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2010/03/31/sports/columns/doc4bb2a2658c771157694932.txt
I thought this was an interesting, if dubious, article by Pat Caputo. He argues that the Lions would be better served drafting a guy like Berry or Derrick Morgan over Suh. The premise is that the Lions need playmakers, Suh is smaller than you would like for a DT, and isn't necessarily a great fit for the system the Lions will employ. FTA:
Suh gained his greatest recognition by dominating the Big 12 championship game against Texas. But in that game, he was not facing nearly the same caliber of player he will see in the NFL.(My counter is that nobody in college plays against NFL starters every game, but Suh was dominant in games against Oklahoma, Texas, VT, and the rest of the Big 12. At some point, you have to accept that some extrapolation is necessary.). While I do agree that the Lions need help on defense, Suh had one of the most dominant seasons in recent memory for a DT, and did so against top-flight talent. Sure he has some flaws, but so does everyone else in the draft. All great teams, though, are strong on both sides of the line, and the defensive line for the Lions last year was laughable for most of the season. I'd take Suh in a heartbeat and then nab a combo lineman/LB in the second or third round if you are so worried about a pass rush.
But you never know with the Lions...We could end up with Dez Bryant.
I hear the Cowboys are high on him - for some reason, the Cowboys have adopted the Lions' earlier approach of only focusing on flashy skill position guys and nothing else. Good luck with that.
I think Denard Robinson mentioned wanting to be like Dez Bryant in that Five Questions video.
he may have been referring to our Des....Desmond Howard.
I was kidding. Hence my post's subject of "Heisman."
Well that was totally confusing.
Yeah, I admit it was poorly played, even on April Fool's (read: Amateur Comedian's) Day
DT or Okung. While I like Berry, I think the #2 spot is high for his position.
yeah, its too bad they have the number 2 pick because i would like them to get berry, but 2 is just to high to pick a safety. anyone other than a defensive tackle or offensive lineman with that pick is giving them too much money for the position they play in respect to the lions needs
So far, nothing I have read leads me to believe that the Lions will take anyone other than Suh or McCoy. Now there could always be some team that offers enough for them to make a trade of picks or something, but honestly either of those two would do well for the Lions.
I heard Okung has been gaining interest lately, especially after they signed a few D-linemen. Then again, there is some talk going on about them being interested in trading for a solid T or G. I would say there is a pretty high possibility of trading out of the #2 pick. I would love to see that happen.
now that they have corey williams i'd like to see them try really hard to trade down. it would be great if they could get berry somewhere around 6-7 instead of 2.
I would love it if they could get the Seahawks to give up their 6th and 14th picks to move up to #2.
Eric Berry AND Brandon Graham sounds delicious.
Indeed. C.J. Spiller would be an awesome pick, as well.
When you have the 6 and 14 picks, you have a chance to get 2 instant impact players.
As a Packers fan, I hope the Lions dont pick Okung. You slide Okung at LT, Backus to a guard spot, and Cherillus to RT. That OLine is light years better than it has been.
I look at it like this. After the top 10 picks, your going to be lucky to find a premier LT. With LTs being a premium, you HAVE to take one when you get a chance. How many years can the Lions really go without getting a stud LT? This is a problem with the Packers. Drafting 23rd, and their biggest hole being tackle, they are gonna really have to reach or trade up to get a LT. Theres alot of good players at 23, but not LTs usually. So I think this is the year that the Lions have to grab Okung, because if they improve like they should (win 5-6 games) they might not be picking in the top 5 again.
the Lions pulled off a hell of a draft. Barring injury, I don't see how they don't go Suh, other than they see something in McCoy; most services have Suh and McCoy as 1 and 1a when it comes to DT's. There's also talk of getting an "O" lineman to protect Stafford. Whatever they decide, I'm looking forward to this draft and see if they can pull off a second straight good draft.
Extending on the OP's point,so we shouldn't draft anyone b/c no college player faces players as good as in the NFL? Thats just terrible logic.
"didnt play against an NFL caliber oline" is stupid because NO ONE plays against NFL caliber prospects every game. berry definitely did not play against NFL talented quarterbacks(*cough tebow) every game and derrick morgan didnt face great olines in the ACC. as for being undersized: are u kidding me? just cuz he doesnt weigh as much as terrance cody doesnt mean the man is undersized. ive never seen anyone arm tackle colt mccoy with one arm until i saw suh dominate that game. too much of a beast to NOT take in my opinion. i also think that its stupid for the rams to even be CONSIDERING taking bradford over suh, but thats just me.
Is an idiot. He has the mental capacity of a 2 year old child, and this article is the equivalent of "OMG SHINY SHINY SHINY KEYS!!!!!" Suh is the 100 percent slam dunk choice at #2 if he's there, he is a physical freak coming off the most dominant season in NCAA history at his position, and would fill the Lions biggest need, a disruptive force in the middle of the D-line.
Pat Caputo knows nothing about football, he once said that the offensive line doesn't matter, and his example was the Vikings not winning the super bowl.
Best situation would be to trade down for the Lions and pick up multiple players on the D side. However, trades don't happen often for picks that high in the NFL draft. Therefore, just have to go with who you think will help the team the most.
IMO you win the games in the trenches and although Corey Williams and Sammie Hill are both good, it would be real nice to get a great DT. A great DT might not get the high #s of sacks that a great DE gets, but they can wreck havoc, stop the run and make the players around him better. Either Suh or McCoy appear that they will fill that role.
Every supposed "expert" seems to say that a DT isn't worth such a high pick b/c it's a low-value position. They say DTs can't take over a game. This is b/c of what you said, they don't get the stats that other positions do. But what a DT does do is help those other positions get their high stats. If you have a dominant force in the middle, it forces an opposing O-line to focus more of their energy on blocking that DT which frees up your edge rushers to get to the QB or pursue the run. We all saw what happened to Vanden Bosch's numbers after Haynesworth left Tennessee. And personally, I'd love to have that DT that can clog up the middle like Albert Haynesworth or the Williams "twins" for Minnesota. To see a Lions defense that is considered one of the better run defenses in the league would probably bring a tear to me eye. Furthermore, I really don't think that the Lions pass defense could improve a whole lot by getting a safety like Berry. It would help, but I think that the main problem with our pass defense is not our secondary but rather our pass rush. When the opposing QB has all day to throw, it doesn't matter how good your DBs are. Someone is going to get open eventually. If we want to improve our D, then DT is the way to go.
Id be very happy with any of the following:
-Suh
-McCoy
-Okung (Can't argue against a pick to help keep Stafford healthy)
-Trading down to get starting OT, CB, possibly Spiller, and a couple more draft picks
if we can't trade down, I'd almost rather take Okung. No, we don't have great DTs, but the one's we do have are pretty good. At least good enough that DT is no longer a major hole on the roster. Our biggest hole now, is LG. While Backus didn't have that great of a season last year, or the year before... or the year before that, I have to agree with Schwartz and say that I think he's a pretty good player. Nobody knows yet how good he would be if he had an even halfway decent guard next to him. By picking up Okung, we could kill two birds with one stone by moving Backus to guard and solidifying Stafford's blind side. Although, by following the same line of reasoning, since guards aren't generally taken very high in the draft we could probably still get Suh and then take a premium LG in the second or third round to help out Backus... To be honest, I'm not going to try and say what the Lions should do this year. I loved our draft last year and I've loved every move that Mayhew has made since he's been running things. I love our front office's ability to recognize talent, and I trust that they will have another good draft this year. I'm looking forward to seeing what they decide to do.
...with trading down if someone can be tricked into doing it. I'm of the opinion that the Lions still need talent, regardless of position of need, and that they are still a long way off from contending for anything at all.
I like that the front office has been using free agency to plug holes and hope that they are using that as an opportunity to concentrate on stricktly talent in the draft. Once you have a couple of drafts worth of young talented players, you can start drafting because you desperately need a LT or whatever.
Caputo did.
If that's what Pat Caputo thinks, then I'm completely sure that we should draft Suh.
Suh is the biggest difference-maker in the draft. If the Lions don't take him, it would be like the Pistons having the second overall pick and not taking Carmelo Anthony.
Suh elevated a team with barely over .500 talent otherwise to a few seconds away from winning the Big 12 title game. I really don't think anyone else in the draft can say anything remotely close to that.
He is a rare player. At lot of DTs have nice measurables every year. Nobody has his production.
Ideally they could trade down only a short way. They could interest the Redskins, who appear to want to take Clausen, by allowing them to jump up and grab a QB with no chance of losing out on their guy, while the Lions would drop to 4, pick up another pick or two, and still end up with whichever of Suh or McCoy that the Bucs didn't take. Or getting their pick of the two if the Bucs took Berry or Okung. And pay their guy as the #4 pick instead of the #2.
That would be a good situation for the Lions, still getting a guy they want while adding picks and paying a bit less money to the guy they wanted. Who knows if the Skins would do it, but if Shanahan wants Clausen, they might do it to ensure they get him.
That sounds great, but neither the Lions nor the Bucs are going to draft Clausen, so why should they trade down? Trading those top spots has become a major economic issue for teams as rookie contracts continue to grow. I've heard having a top pick be seen as a negative thing because so much of the franchise's money is tied up in a player with no track record.
Why? Because someone behind the Redskins could trade up ahead of the Redskins and take their guy. Obviously this is predicated on the Skins wanting Clausen -- if they don't want a QB in the first round they'd be stupid to trade when they can get a guy they can use at 4. They're already paying a high-priced DT so they'd probably want Okung (I believe their LT retired).
I think the way the money has gotten in the draft is a big driver behind the rumblings of a slotted draft. The owners and GMs hate the draft as is because the top picks cost a ton so if you blow it you really mess up your cap, and many players don't like it all that much because all that money that goes to guys who haven't played a down yet comes out of the money that could be paid to veteran players due to the hard cap. I have to think the players association will use a slotted draft as a major "concession" in this round of bargaining.
why would the redskins move up to 2? say the rams take bradford(which would be stupid) with #1 pick. that leaves the lions and bucs to pick before the skins can pick up clausen. lions arent gonna take a qb because stafford is their man and last year the bucs took josh freeman with the 1st round pick. wouldnt make sense to move up from 4 to 2 for the skins. on top of that, they arent sold on clausen being their man, theyve shown interest in picking a qb in the 2nd round.
prevent teams like Cleveland, Seattle, and Buffalo (especially Seattle and their two first round picks) from jumping ahead of them in the draft and taking Jimmy C. before he gets to the 4th pick. You have to remember their are a lot more teams in play than just the Bucs and Leos.
If Okung can be a pro-bowl level tackle in the NFL, I think that may be the best choice. As stated many times before, D-tackles generally don't get #2 pick money, even as established stars. Does it make sense to tie up that much money in a player that is probably overpaid almost regardless of his performance? I don't know.
I'd probably rent a time machine and see who had the better career--but what do I know.
Wait to see if Bradford is a for-sure for St. Louis....throw the pick out there to see who is interested. You know Suh is at the top of most boards so you might find someone stupid enough to make a crazy offer. If you don't get the right offer, hold and take Suh. I think people are thinking about this way too much....the guy was an absolute game changer regardless of position. There's no other player in the draft (besides maybe Berry) who could have such an impact at the next level.
You take the guy who had stats equivalent to entire defensive lines at Florida, Alabama, and Texas with 2000s Nebraska talent around him. This isn't hard.
If 2000s Nebraska talent isn't very good, why are the Huskers the odds-on favorite to win the Big 12 next year, without Suh?
the favorite to win the big 12 NORTH. their competition includes: kansas(hahaha), mizzou(hahahaha), and kansas state(ha(only one ha cuz they have a tendency to beat texas)). and this is technically 2010 nebraska talent as opposed to 2000 :)
oh and their defense will be worse without suh. thats kinda like saying the vikings offense will be better next year if they lose favre. they might be almost on the same level, but they arent gonna be as good or better than without him.
...but I hope the Lions draft Tim Tebow and give him the starting QB spot. Then we can all gleefully watch the chosen one endure a dozen straight losing seasons before finally exploding himself in a fit of prayer. Now that would be entertaining.
I really dislike all the talk about DTs not getting the pay of the #2 draft spot. Who cares? You draft the best player at your position of need. If he changes the pay curve, so be it. If he's a bust, then he's a big bust. But if you need a DT you get the best one available.
He's listed at 6-4 313 lbs. How's that too little ? Caputo, you have no clue !!!!!!
But in that game, he was not facing nearly the same caliber of player he will see in the NFL.If that isn't the stupidest thing I've ever seen a reporter write.... I mean, let's just not draft anyone then. My take on the draft? "Dear Mr. Mayhew: I want a defensive tackle. So Suh me. Sincerely, Every Lions fan."
One of the greatest things about moving out of Michigan was that I no longer had to listen to Pat Caputo or his idiotic rants.
I've been saying for a while we should take Russell Okung over Suh. We already have Corey Williams and Sammie Lee Hill at defensive tackle. We need a offensive tackle like Okung a lot more than another defensive tackle.
If Suh is available when the Lions pick and they choose someone else, I will be unsurprised.
I have to laugh at how basically no one outside of the Big 12 knew who Suh was until he had a big game against Texas, at which point he suddenly had a last-minute national Heisman campaign launched on his behalf and was touted as a guaranteed NFL superstar. I'm already tired of hearing about him.
the heisman campaign was stupid but he was a nationally known stud. he had 8 sacks outside of the texas game(where he had 4, giving him a total of 12) as a DT who was constantly being double or triple teamed. try and tell me thats not impressive as hell. he also did a fantastic job at getting his hands up when he couldnt get the sack which was highlighted in the VT game where he had 4(FOUR!) pass deflections. he was a top 5 pick going into the season if i remember correctly. hes a DT tho, so he didnt get as much love on a national level. but, as u said, the b12 knew about him and fear him.
I would take Suh first. If Suh isn't available then I would take Okung over McCoy. I'd rather have the best offensive lineman than the second best defensive lineman, assuming all three are legitimate top 5 picks. It also bugged me that McCoy only bench pressed in the low 20 reps with 225lbs. That just kind of raises a red flag to me.
with the second pick should select Brandon Graham. He of course wont be, and based on what I have read, he probably wont even be selected among the top 15 players.