OT- Jim Leyland and Tigers
Today the Tigers had a 4-1 lead in bottom of the 8th with 1 out. Ryan Perry proceeded to give up a single, homerun, single, double (about 2 ft from a HR), and a single before Leyland decided to pull the plug. At this point we were already down 5-4, which turned out to be the final. Mind you Zumaya and Coke were both warming up before the HR, and coke came in to get two quick outs right after this.
What are everyone's feelings on Leyland? I gave myself a cool down period before posting this, but am still pissed about it. I've been strongly against Leyland's in game managing for a long time now and he continues to do things that are so incomprehensibly dumb IMO.
Last year in the play-in game vs the twins he put in miner, who got lit up in close games all season, when we had a lead late in the game. Everyone around me hated the decision and Miner proceeded to blow the game. There are a plethora of other things he does and has done that bother me, and I just wanted to know what the general opinion on him is from most tigers fan. Personally, I would love to see us bring in someone else, but what does everyone think?
At least 8.
Oh, wait. Who are we talking about again?
EDIT: Dammit.
When I turned off the game to go and work, I thought a 4-1 lead was safe too. I heard the score and thought that Bondo was left in too long, Turns out our solid Bullpen finally caved. Jimmy wants Perry to be a closer and seems to want Papa Grande to pitch everynight. Losing two straight to a last place team is terrible. The other issue, and I do not have fault in this, but not having Miguel in the line-up two straight games is tough as well.
Finally, a question. I think Adam Everett and Santiago are better ball players than worth, so why does he get to play everyday?? I know he is holding down 2nd unitl Carlos is ready, but why put the AAA guy in, put him on the beanch and let two major leaguers play (though I agree Adam can't hit himself out of a paper bag).
I just hope our pitching stays strong and all of our Rookies can last a full season!
Have you seen Worth play? Wow is he better than Adam. I was wondering if worth can play short because if he does there is no reason to keep Adam once Carlos comes back if you ask me. With Everett we essentially have an NL lineup
I saw an interesting interview with Leyland. Jim was explaining his responsibility to protect pitchers such as Verlander, because the team has $90 million invested in him. Maybe some of this protectionism played a part in not bringing Zumaya into the game today after the home run. IDK, just food for thought, I don't know why else Zumaya wasn't in the game, it was pretty clear to me that Perry just didn't have it.
He's doing a pretty terrible job at protecting the investment considering that Verlander ranks 2nd in pitcher abuse points. And leads the league in average pitches thrown.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=687…
You could very well be correct. Not trying to be a dick, but how many starts has Verlander missed due to injury?
Verlander came up in 06 and Leyland has been his only manager to date, in this, Verlander's 5th MLB season.
Not very many, IIRC. Sure, it's entirely possible that Verlander just has something special that makes him able to throw a lot of innings with little risk of injury but it isn't very likely. Sooner or later, it will catch up to him.
it's baseball. babip happens. it's not like perry was floundering out there....he had the same stuff and command as he's always had this season. they were just hitting it. i mean they did the same thing to verlander the night before, stuff happens.
For the most part, managers get too much credit when a team wins and too much blame when they lose. Leyland might be a great guy who the players love and has integrity. I don't know, but I do know that his decision making isn't very good. ust consider the meltdown at the end of last year;
- Starting Figaro in game 161 and then pulling him after 1.1 innings which killed the bullpen
- Leaving Zach Miner in game 163 to give up 4 hits in 6 batters
- Letting Fernando Rodney throw 3 innings in game 163 when the last time he had thrown 3 innings in a game was June 19th, 2006
- His incredibly moronic quote after the game [Rodney] "wanted another one so I had to give it to him" NO! You, Jim Leyland, are the manager. You get paid to make these decisions!
By all accounts, he's great in the clubhouse and everyone loves him but as a game-day manager he is criminally incompetent.
I'm just slightly curious as to who you would have rather seen put in the game in 163 instead of Rodney for a 3rd inning?
Are you seriously going to bring up last year as an example of bad managing?
Maggs sucked Donkey balls. Inge died halfway through the year due to his knees. We had Verlander + a rookie + shit sandwich for starting pitching. Rodney was closing games, and the rest of our bullpen was an injured Zumaya, a rookie, Seay and a turd burger. Carlos Guillen died at the beginning of the season, and Laird.
1. IIRC, Figaro was a correct choice if you took the long look (who would start Game 1). It was a weak choice if you took the short look (gotta get in). Figaro was going to have to start a game at some point. Again, IIRC. Not "criminally incompetent."
2. Zach Minor is your long reliever. The Twins were on a tear. Chill out.
3. Rodney was a stud last year. In that game, who else are you gonna throw? The guy who converted all but one save during the year or some other smuck? You live and die with the horses that got ya there. Rodney deserved to stay out there.
4. "Criminally incompetent"? Really? Chill the fuck out.
I don't have much time so I'm just going to address #3. Remember when Grady Little left Pedro in? Pedro was "a stud" and Little chose to "live and die with him".
Sometimes, guys get tired. Rodney isn't a guy who can throw three innings. This is pretty clear based on the fact that he hadn' done so in three and a half years.
Deserve has nothing to do with it. A manager's job is to give the team the best chance to win. Rodney is very good for an inning or two but he isn't a guy who has the endurance to go 3 innings. Leyland cost us the game.
"zach miner is your long reliever"... and who exactly makes that decision? Answer: the manager aka jim leyland. And don't tell me there wasn't anyone else to put in either. Zach Miner had been a train wreck all season; to put him in in that situation was asinine (I'll say that now and I said it before he gave up the 2-run homer to cabrera).
Porcello left in the sixth. Leyland probably brought Miner into the sixth inning of 50 games last year. Yet one of the times Miner gives up runs (he gave up two that game) it is indicitive of poor managing?
There is no way you watched more than 40 games last year and thought Miner was a decent pitcher. The way Miner was getting lit up all year, YES it was a poor decision to bring him in in that spot. He gave up 2 runs in 2/3 of an inning (could have been more if Fu Te Ni didn't come in and get us out of the inning.
Decent is quite the relative term. FTR: I probably watched/attended/listened to 140ish games.
Also, at this point, why the hell are we arguing about Zach Miner and Fu Te Ni?
... a smoke break at the time. It wasn't his fault.
Do we really have to keep calling him a winning and proven manager? He's ok. He's mediocre. I don't really care too much about the rest of the conversation because I agree with previous points that managers are given too much and too little credit.
His career record is 1437-1456. Not exactly winning.
It is considered winning when you have that record and you've spent the vast majority of you r career coaching the PITTSBURGH FUCKING PIRATES. For christ's sake the man won a world series with the Florida Marlins.
You don't think he's a winner? Good god, are you serious?
He has a winning percentage of .615 with the Tigers. Tommy Lasorda had a .526 winning percentage with the Dodgers. Tony La Russa has a .527 winning percentage with the Cards. Leyland had a fucking .496 winning percentage with the Pirates. Good god.
While I agree with your assessment as far as Leyland being a solid manager, basing your argument around the fact that he managed the "Pittsburgh Pirates", you're obviously trying to equate the Pirates then with the Pirates now, and that's just not feasible. He had a roster consisting of guys like Bonds, Bonilla, Van Slyke with talented pitchers like Doug Drabek and John Smiley. They were arguably the most talented team in baseball for most of his tenure there.
Leyland was very successful....when he had those players. The last half of his tenure there, the Pirates were the same shitty cheapskate Pirates we know today. They let all those great hitters walk in free agency, they traded Jay Bell for the pu-pu platter of prospects, traded John Smiley in his prime in the middle of spring training, and basically dismantled the team that had finished first for several years running. Leyland hung on for four or five years managing teams with 55-win talent to 55-win seasons.
and three manager of the year trophies beg to differ.
Mustache
Leyland is a good Manager. He made a bonehead decision to leave Perry in, especially with a day off tomorrow.
No one expected the Tigers to contend this year. They are (so far). Shouldn't some of the credit for that go to the Manager?
Given all that, if Everett and Inge don't start hitting, I don't think Leyland will let them drag us down much past the All Star break. There are rooks who can do those jobs and hit better. We've seen that, because Leyland has scrawled their names on his lineup cards.
In baseball, every manager is going to make a regrettable decision every now and then. With Leyland, I don't think it's a recurring problem.
This game was 0.6% of the Tigers season. Sure, a single game was the difference last year, but you have to keep things in perspective.
I love Leyland. He is one of the best in Baseball at managing and developing young guys. He is generally regarded as an expert at managing a bullpen (which is one of the toughest things to do). Yes he leaves some guys in too long, but really its incredibly easy to second guess after the fact in Baseball when something goes wrong. I have doubted him at times too, but I think he is just fine as Tigers Manager.
1989-2005, the Tigers had a .426 winning percentage.
In four years under Leyland's guidance, the franchise has a .530 winning percentage.
Hmmmm. Let me think for a second. Yeah, I'll leep him as manager.
Quit being a whiny bitch and take it like a man.
I get your point, but there is some correlation in there as far as a jump in payroll is concerned.
I agree about the stop whining part.....the only reason I am bummed about these two losses is because Minny was swept and the door was open for us to take the division lead. That being said, leaving Perry in should not really be criticized....he's done a good job so far this year and he's young enough to where you don't want to kill his confidence by removing him in a high pressure situation. If anything, I would imagine leaving him in would help his confidence knowing his manager trusts him enough to get the job done, even if he was unable to in this single instance.
Yeah, he rode arguably his best bullpen pitcher this year, and it turned out badly. I'm not sure that qualifies as "stupid" if people could just learn to not evaluate decisions in the rearview mirror and instead evaluate them based on what Leyland knew when he made the call.
If Perry had gotten through, he probably would have started a "OMG PERRY" thread. The OP seems to believe that the destiny of the team is determined each day in each game....not only is it a misguided way to follow the sport, it's bad for your health in general. I think the guy just needs to chill out and let the season unfold.
OMG PERRY... for what? only giving up 2 runs in an inning? that would have been the case had he gotten through.
And this is going to be my last point because I'm tired of making legitimate points on this thread just so a bunch of slappies who mildly follow baseball can neg me... do not claim i am looking in the rearview mirror here. i was in a public place watchign the game and every single person around watching was baffled as to why the hell Perry was still in after the HR and single, and then even more baffled when he stayed in after the 390 foot double. Leyland fell asleep at the wheel that game; end of story. Hopefully he can limit his managing mistakes in the future
.....you overreact every time the Tigers lose a game and fail to realize that their bullpen is going to blow a game every once in a while and that Leyland is not infallible. Please....forgive them for leading the majors in bullpen ERA and being tied for 4th in BP WHIP. Enjoy the rest of the season with your armchair manager buddies.
Also.....LOL @ the slappie comment. It's pretty clear you know very little about the game, otherwise you'd figure out a way not to freak out every time something bad happens.