OT: Jameis Winston's Accuser is in Hunting Ground Documentary
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/02/19/erica-kins…
This is an odd inclusion into the documentary imo. This time she's claiming she was drugged even though 2 toxicology reports came out debunking her...
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/270/files/2014/12/Retested…
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:01 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:02 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:06 PM ^
Let's relax a bit champ. Joined today and your first post? Neat.
Her story has changed over time and there are conflicting accounts from her friends and text messages, but you took it a bit far ....
If you're going to make a documentary about campus rape, I feel like you should use examples that are more concrete to fit the argument. This just seems like a headline so they get more views.
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:07 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:06 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:05 PM ^
Well, look at Will Carr, showing up to drop the ball.
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:08 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:05 PM ^
Yes, poor Jameis, what a saint he is.
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:05 PM ^
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
February 22nd, 2015 at 11:50 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:05 PM ^
It appears the accusing attorney wanted Winston to take out an insurance policy in case he was injured - so he could still pay.
http://chopchat.com/2015/02/22/kinsmans-attorney-wanted-insurance-polic…
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:10 PM ^
The more information that comes out about her legal team, the more this sounds like a cash grab...
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:31 PM ^
Winston's legal team is all class.
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:06 PM ^
these sort of he-said-she-said sexual assault cases are awful because getting it wrong is terrible either way. Either the woman is assaulted and the guy goes unpunished or a guy ends up on the sexual predator list for something he didn't do (something that happened to a friend of mine). Ugly.
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:25 PM ^
Michigan has a case similar to this. The kid got kicked out of school due to the preponderance bar for sexual assault. Later it comes out the girl's mother just found out about her sleeping habits and could have forced the issue.
He's suing Michigan and the girl now for kicking him out with shotty evidence and false accusations I believe.
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2014/05/lawsuit_claims_u-…
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:38 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:48 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:53 PM ^
February 23rd, 2015 at 8:10 AM ^
February 23rd, 2015 at 8:56 AM ^
There is no blanket statement we can use for this entire topic.
I'm sure there are plenty of instances where men and women have consensual sex and one wakes up the next day realizing what happened and regrets it. "Oh no, what is my mom/dad going to think?" "Ew, I slept with him/her?" "Will I get in trouble with my frat/sorority?" "Ugh, I don't even like this person, what did I do?" "Yikes, that was awful." "Oh no, I just cheated on my boyfriend/girlfriend." "Was that a one night stand? ...I'm so ashamed." "I don't want to be called a hoe/groupie." "Ew he/she's a hoe I don't want to be associated with that person sexually...on his/her "list"..."
You could go on and on and on with a list of why people wake up the next morning regretting sex with someone.
Alcohol and drugs certainly alter the influence of both men and women...but so does power, so does celebrity, so does being flat out horny.
Rape accusations aren't only made when someone says no. If that was the case then your suggestion certainly works - unfortunately, it's not that easy.
February 23rd, 2015 at 9:22 AM ^
You might want to go look up statistics on the incidence of false rape accusations, because when you say "Rape accusations aren't only made when someone says no", it's clear that you're misinformed on the topic. Rape accusations don't happen nearly as much as rape itself, and false rape accusations are nearly non-existent.
February 23rd, 2015 at 1:16 PM ^
I never understand this line of thinking. Anywhere from 0 to 10% of rape cases involve proven false accusations. And lets not kid ourselves an accusation of rape false or true tarnishes a person's life. Upwards to 45% sometimes do not have evidence and upwards to 35% can have enough evidence to be taken to court. Upwards to 20% can't be codified. So what does this all mean? There is a HUGE grey zone in which NOBODY knows which way the hammer falls. (that false rape percentage can be way higher OR lower).
Now answer me this. Our justice system is centered around never sending 1 innocent person to prison regardless of how many guilty go free. Do you know what the rate of sending innocent people to jail is? 0 to 5%. Yet the system will bend over backwards for the person to be found not guilty regardless of the criticism and perceived verdict.
Scrutiny of the accuser is not the same as victim bashing and false rape shouldn't be brushed aside.
February 23rd, 2015 at 4:31 PM ^
Our justice system is not centered around not sending innocent people to prison regardless of how many guitly people go free. That's a sophomoric understanding of the criminal justice system. Your entire line of conversation here is a non-sequitur.
Your "statistics" about rape cases which could go either way are also super disingenuous when our legal system has 250,000 rape kits just lying around untested right now. The majority of rape cases today cannot "go either way" because they're never given a fair shake to begin with. The only way they can go is "not guilty".
February 23rd, 2015 at 4:43 PM ^
What is a fair shake? If you are skeptical of every legal/police entity not trying or being skeptical of rape cases then don't even bother. You are biased to begin with.
It is up to the victim and if she is steered away from filing complaints etc, then yes that is wrong, and it should be fixed.
February 23rd, 2015 at 9:08 PM ^
You may be right that 0-10% of rape cases involve false accusations, but I am not sure what conclusions can be drawn from that.
Your statistic for sending innocent people to jail is probably far too low. Studies estimate that 4% of people on death row are innocent. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-perc…. To me, this data implies that false accusations (by the government or the victim) are pretty common, maybe no more or less so than rape. I think having serious criminal charges filed is a horrible stigma for other crimes as well.
I think that the difference is that rape cases draw extreme emotional responses from the general public. With rape there is often (1) a counter-active knee jerk reaction to protect the accused, and denigrate the victim, and (2) an equally reactionary response from people who think we live in a "rape culture." This doesn't happen as often with murder, or other crimes.
February 23rd, 2015 at 8:19 PM ^
You may want to go back and actually read what I wrote.
I used the word "rape" once and never said or even implied that rape accusations happen nearly as much as rape itself. I said "rape accusations aren't only made when someone says no." That is a fact. Rape accusations can be made when both people say "yes.
Where in that do you get that I said the accusations happen as much as rape itself?
What I said was in response to the post above mine.
- No blanket statement (or rule) can be applied to "solve" this entire topic - true
- I'm sure there are plenty of instances where men a women have consensual sex and someone wakes up and regrets it - true
- Rape accusations aren't only made when someone says no - true
You can't argue with any of those, but somehow you found a way...by making up something that was never said.
LOL, you literally took the opposite of what I said and tried to flip it on me.
Read next time. It says it right there in black and white.
February 23rd, 2015 at 12:24 AM ^
what an f'd up story. They had sex while the roomate was awake and above them in a bunk bed. And she admits she never made any attempt to cry for help while the alleged sexual assault occurred. And she didn't report it until 5 months later. And there's no mention of any criminal complaint or charges being filed. The guy was expelled and now he can't get back into school unless he admits to misconduct. And he can't get into other schools due to his bad standing. Wasn't allowed to speak to witnesses, etc. Totally f'd up.
This is exhibit A on why current policies are completely f'd up and totally screw over the accused.
He deserves reinstatement and millions in compensation for emotional distress, lost educational time, etc. I hope he gets justice.
February 23rd, 2015 at 5:25 AM ^
Exactly why these cases should remain out of kangaroo courts run by schools and be directly handled by the justice system/police with, you know, actual evidence. Better for both victims and suspects.
February 23rd, 2015 at 9:27 AM ^
So universities which believe that they have a rapist on campus should be forced to keep that rapist on campus, potentially preying on additional students until such time as the criminal justice system convicts that person? Charges them? Indicts them?
Are there any other crimes you feel where the accused should receive special protections until the criminal justice system concludes their case? Theft? Assault? Battery? Vandalism? Plagiarism?
Why shouldn't a university be allowed to determine who has lived up to its code of conduct and remove people appropriately? What about their determination system makes it a "kangaroo court"?
February 23rd, 2015 at 12:51 PM ^
Universities need "preponderance" of evidence, the lowest standard possible meaning a simple accusation in this very vague "preponderance" can send a kid towards expulsion without any sort of evidence collecting. This is a kangaroo court. Now unless Royce Harper is personally going around doing rape kits and investigating, academics like her should have 0 input. It is heavily biased against the accused. You are automatically assuming the person is guilty.
I personally think there shouldn't be any action on the suspect until one is charged with a crime. in the actual justice system. Even then he/she should only be suspended until the verdict.
Why is it people want schools/organizations to take action against people when they are ill equipped to do so? The justice system and police who have the means necessary to determine someone's guilt, LET THEM WORK.
Again I repeat. Scrutinizing the victim is not victim bashing and it is NOT pretty. But guess what? Rape is not a pretty crime. Nothing will be pretty in this process. I would rather have the process get it right with evidence than get it wrong (like Drew Sterrit's or Brendan GIbbons both who fall on 2 sides of the verdict) in the actual justice system with people, you know, EQUIPPED to handle this stuff than a bunch of academics.
Why should the University do the justice system/police work when the accuser doesn't notify the police? You can't skip the evidence part. There is no way getting around it whether rape advocates like it or not.
February 23rd, 2015 at 4:25 PM ^
Universities aren't taking action against people accused of crimes beyond determining whether, to the best of their ability to conclude, they believe the student should still be enrolled at the school.
This is why I think other crimes are relevant. Nobody spent time crowing about how C'sonte York should be allowed to stay in school until the criminal justice system charged him with battery. Nobody argues that there should be a police investigation prior to someone being expelled for plagiarism. It's only rape that I see people suggesting there should be some kind of "wait and see what the cops say" standard.
To correct your horrible understanding of law, additionally: Preponderance of the Evidence does not mean you assume people are guilty. It means that you collect evidence, and upon reviewing that evidence, you believe that person probably committed the crime. Applying it to a rape case means you're saying "I've reviewed all the pertinent evidence, and I'm fairly sure that person raped the person they are accused of raping." At that point, it is totally and wholly logical for an university, which I'm positive will have student conduct policies that explicitly outlaw rape, to take the strongest possible action against the student: expelling them.
Being expelled from school is not a criminal sentence. It's not a violation of someone's rights. They're simply removing that student from school exactly the same as thousands of other students who've been removed from school for breaking school rules.
February 23rd, 2015 at 5:13 PM ^
You're missing the point again.
In all of those cases it is CLEAR CUT rules infractions resulting in expulsions. There is a damn video of York punching the kid outside of Skeeps.
What is clear cut about this case? Please tell me.
A violation would obviously be rape.
Did Winston and Sterritt rape their respective accusers? There have been 0 charges and yet Michigan comes up with a different conclusion than FSU regarding expulsion. How would the schools know any better than the justice system?
Again... what rules/code of ethics violations are there? Last time I checked sex and drinking don't get people expelled from school. (unless you're BYU)
February 22nd, 2015 at 11:30 PM ^
We will never know what really happened, but the "other side of the story" as related by teammates and classmates is that Winston had been screwing around with Kinsman for a few months. Supposedly, she only decided it was an "assault" after he refused to leave his gf for her. Her first attorney was her aunt, who eventually found someone more experienced in this kind of thing for her.
If anyone is interested in seeing the other side of the story, the Google 'trail" isn't all that hard to follow. The big problem is that we have read her side of the story in the media for over a year, but not his side. Winston's sophomoric behavior, juxtaposed with his success, make him an easy target for sports fans who constantly read one side of the story.
A former Florida Supreme Court judge and two prosecutors have decided there isn't enough evidence to convict Winston. Therefore, he is not legally guilty of anything. Sadly, there are a lot of people treating him as though he is guilty.
I don't think he did it. This sounds like a classic case of someone trying to find a "child donor" who is going to provide a lot of money, failing and moving to "Plan B."
February 23rd, 2015 at 4:25 AM ^
This is where FSU/TPD screwed the pooch. If they actually investigated instead of looking like a University willing to bend its principles for football, this whole thing would be behind Winston. But running a non-chalant investigation with frequently questionable practices, this whole thing won't die. Maybe he did it, but now, it does seem like there is plenty of evidence that adds reasonable doubt.
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:10 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:14 PM ^
I just don't understand how/why the national media is running with her side of the story without factchecking...
Her friend's testimony doesn't match up with hers
Rape kit came back inconclusive at best
No drugs in her system and she wasn't drunk
Yes the TPD botched the investigation by not retrieving bar video and the cellphone video but given that these exams happened within 24 hours and conflict with the accuser's testimony (which has changed big time) there should be more scrutiny...
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:17 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:43 PM ^
Yep...
if they actually did their job this would probably be a non-issue or settled by now.
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:52 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:16 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:33 PM ^
The blood was drawn the night of so that isn't true.
http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/270/files/2014/12/Evidence…
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:38 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 11:04 PM ^
2 false negatives when she went to the cops at around 4am? That's a reach given her first story of being hit in the head and not remembering anything from the 911 recordings.
Idk about that
February 23rd, 2015 at 4:01 PM ^
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Flunitrazepam(rohypnol) has a half life of ~1 day. Any modern lab will be able to detect a drug with that long a halflife for several days after being administred... and that's in blood/urine samples. Hair samples would be testable for even longer than that.
Please stop spreading misinformation.
February 24th, 2015 at 12:20 PM ^
Verstraete AG. Detection times of drugs of abuse in blood, urine, and oral fluid. Ther Drug Monit. 2004;26(2):200-205.
GHB -
"GHB can be detected for approximately 5 hours in blood and oral fluid and less than 12 hours in urine"
Flunitrazepam(rohypnol)-
Can be detected significantly longer, depending on the test. Some tests will never detect it.
"In this study, the immunochemical methods never gave a positive result.
Also note -
The blood specimen was not tested for drugs. Only the urine sample... and there is some question exactly which drugs it was tested for... based on the report from the University of Florida toxicology department it appears Flunitrazepam(rohypnol) was NOT one of the drugs which was tested.
It possible (but not likely) that Rohypnol would not have been detected if used, depending on the toxicology screen.
It's likely that if GHB were used, it would not have been dtetcted by the toxicology screen.
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:11 PM ^
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:17 PM ^
February 23rd, 2015 at 9:28 PM ^
Jameis Winston came out of this relatively unscathed. Just ask those at this university who invited him to come work out here, and played it for everyone to see. If he had as many black marks as his supporters say, that wouldn't have happened. Michigan will always be concerned about its reputation, and about its integrity. If there was concern in the air, in the football community, he never would have been invited here.