OT: With graduation next month, anyone worried about perm WFH/hybrid's impact on Michigan?
Ford just announced 30,000 white collars can basically work from home forever.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-let-30-000-employees-141820262.html
Safe bet GM, Stellantis, and many (most?) other large employers around the state do the same. Even if you have to be in the office once every two weeks or once a month (work-office hybrid), doesn't it seem like a heck of a lot of folks, especially new college grads, will just bolt out of state (ex. Chicago) instead of living in Royal Oak, Detroit or Ann Arbor? It's only $60 RT to train from Chicago into SE Michigan. And many senior employees will mull living up around Traverse City or flee the state entirely e.g. Sun Belt for warmer weather? I'm concerned this could trigger another recession for the state and more specifically hammer SE Michigan especially hard. University graduation surveys pre-pandemic show we've had challenges keeping UM (and MSU, GVSU, CMU, EMU) grads in the state after college, i.e. brain drain, won't this make things a heck of a lot worse? Half of UM are non-residents but we've been struggling to keep the in-staters too.
Sir this is a basketball emporium
From the article:
The “flexible hybrid work model” unveiled Wednesday lets employees choose to stay home for “heads-down work,” while coming to the office for meetings and team-building activities.
I didn't get "once every two weeks or once a month" from reading that. Would anyone be surprised if "meetings and team-building activities" are scheduled three days of the week? I suppose it will depend on the workplace and the job. I can tell you that the dinosaurs in my world (management and non-management) are still uncomfortable with WFH a year later. If it's up to them the pandemic will be forgotten a few days after the smoke clears.
The transfer of knowledge from veteran employees to the newbies doesn’t happen during WFH and it is a major issue. That is one of the biggest drivers to get everyone back together. When the boomers retire all their tribal knowledge goes with them.
This is really my only issue. I'd honestly be perfectly fine with WFH if I wasn't new to my team and still learning (about a year in now working with guys who've been here for 20-30 years). It doesn't seem like much but it's a lot easier to call out across a divider or walk across an aisle and tap a coworker on the shoulder than to have to call someone or schedule a meeting for every little question.
8.6.1March 19th, 2021 at 10:07 PM ^
Cant you just shoot an instant message from Microsoft Teams or Skype or internal internet of some sort? I haven’t seen my associate in person more than a handful of times in the last 53 weeks. We are highly effective still.
March 19th, 2021 at 10:22 PM ^
Yes, we do this as well. Still not the same. I'm doing fine, though. So's my team. It's just different. I miss the face to face. I'm an engineer and I do have to go to plants and vendors sometimes, so I'm not totally isolated. But it's been something to get used to.
I haven't minded the WFH thing once I got my routine down. Like I said, it's just that one thing.
8.6.1Absolutely false on transfer of knowledge. ‘Some’ Companies want butts in seats as the millennials are crying they can’t make ‘social’ connections to ‘move up’ the ladder. They have yet to learn this means squat. It’s problem solvers that move. You can problem solve anywhere.
WFH is here to stay and will accelerate. It’s coming. Employees want part home/part office. Some want all home. Can’t change it now.
If this happens it’s a failure of leadership, plain and simple.
Isn't it possible that it could work the other way, say for people who have jobs in downtown Chicago (for example) but hate living in Chicagoland and would prefer living in places like Ann Arbor or Royal Oak?
WFH could stimulate the build-out of broadband to rural areas—if you're a white collar worker who depends on an internet connection for your work, your WFH options might be somewhat constrained by what sort of connectivity a small town or township might have.
Not just possible, Don, it's likely.
Hate Chicagoland and prefer A2 or Royal Oak? Highly unlikely
March 19th, 2021 at 10:12 PM ^
10 years ago today I was part of a small group who started a company in Chicago. I enjoyed the work and people I worked with but was secretly desperate to move out of Chicago and back to Royal Oak the whole time.
I now work for a different company. While I love my current job as much or more, I do wonder “what if” had I been able to somehow continue with the other company from Michigan.
so definitely people exist like this. I am one.
March 19th, 2021 at 11:01 PM ^
Having lived in RO for 3 years and then Chicago (Lincoln Park, Gold Coast, and 1 year at Division and LaSalle, whatever you consider that) for 9 years, and West MI for the last 5 years, this is absolutely true. If I couldn’t work remote, there is a 0% chance I would work in Chicago.
Yes, that’s what all the early research is showing - it’s movement to more livable and low cost areas.
March 19th, 2021 at 11:08 PM ^
My company just adopted a work some days in the office, some at home policy. However had they adopted 100% WFH, I would immediately jump onto a flight back to Michigan.
Elon Musk just about has that problem worked out with SpaceX’s Starlink, approx. 1000 satellites offering relatively high speed internet. I was impressed with Iridium’s 66 satellites (also the # of electrons in an iridium atom).
Not sure, our company hasn’t said shit about hybrid and is expecting us back in the office later this year in Mich.
Sir, this is an Arby's
Truthfully, I’m not overly concerned. I think about places like Oakland county, where there are excellent schools and nice homes at a price that’s significantly cheaper than Chicagoland or NY. Between the cost of living index, proximity to significant industry, a major travel hub, and the state’s favorable position as the climate continues to shift, I personally think Michigan will not be hurt by this.
Also anecdotally, I work for one of the big tech companies and we have a shitload of people leaving the bay and NY and buying in Michigan.
I thought there were more assholes here recently.
March 19th, 2021 at 11:08 PM ^
“The state’s favorable position as the climate continues to shift”... what the hell are you talking about?
If you think the climate is going to continuously get warmer due to human influence, then we’re going to see it be a couple of degrees warmer (still freezing cold winters and short as hell summers) while our water levels continue to rise, eroding our beaches and depreciating our property values.
Or, if you do carry those beliefs, you’re playing the long game and looking 1000 years out. In which case, respect.
March 20th, 2021 at 11:21 AM ^
There is almost universal consensus in the scientific community that the Great Lakes region will be favorably positioned as the climate continues to change over the next three decades. I’m not going to debate some message board boomer about this.
Funnily enough, I am thinking the opposite. I, like many of my peers, went from Michigan to the East Coast for work, but now my wife and I are actually considering moving there (she's from CA but likes snow and we lived in New England). No final policy from our employers yet on long-term remote work, but it's probably negotiable and the much lower cost of living combined with proximity to family make it an attractive option.
I think recent grads will still feel the pull of Chicago, NYC and LA, but for a lot of people remote work from Royal Oak or Traverse City with a nice salary and proximity to family is going to sound like a pretty good deal. I also think about the impact of climate change. Austin and Atlanta ain't going to get any better weather-wise, but Michigan certainly will.
if we get the go ahead we may move to Florida and WFH
Of all the places in the country to live, why Florida?
I never got the Florida appeal. When you take into account the hurricanes, humidity, bugs and Florida Men, what's the draw?
The draw is you can be free and not have to explain yourself when you don't comply with ridiculous "rules". Oh and it's warm.
I need muh freedoms
I have mine. I don't follow nonsense. I see more and more people everyday realizing this.
Like the old no eating faces rule?
No state income tax for one. You’re never more than an hours drive from a beach if you’re into that. Lots of great golf. No shoveling snow.
Honestly? Having lived here (in Southwest Florida) for more than a decade, I can assure you that you have it completely wrong (but we like it like that - slows the population growth at least SOME). The humidity is really only a thing for about five months (May-September), there is no state income tax, we’ve had only one hurricane that caused any concern at all as long as I’ve lived here (Irma - people forget that Florida is a GIANT state), and bugs aren’t a thing. Florida Man? That’s real though.
My mom has had a place on Vanderbilt Beach for over 30 years and I've had to help her recover from major hurricanes three times. It was not fun as there are not enough tradespeople there to deal with the crush.
The advent of the red tide has made it a much less livable place, as well.
I'd prefer to never go back -- we're going to retire on the Big Island which is far more beautiful with much cooler people.
I think it will actually work out in FAVOR of great places to live like Ann Arbor. Or at least the Ann-Arbor area if not Ann Arbor itself.
I left when I graduated in 1995 because I I couldn't get the job I wanted in the area. I came back in 2010, but left again 2 years later for the same reason.
If work-from-home had been a thing when I had graduated college, there is very little chance I would have left. I would have stayed near my family and found a job I liked where I could work remotely..
More than likely this movement will see a shift of population from big urban centers to more remote locations, as ambitious job seekers no longer have to move to "job hubs" to further their careers. I've lived in urban job hub cities almost my entire adult life because it has massively advanced my career. In the future, that might not be necessary.
We've already been told that we will not see downtown but for meetings or the odd event again. At best, I have to go to the service center I actually do work for (Redford, but as I am also a Wayne County resident, this is not a tedious drive - 20 minutes at most) a couple times a month, but beyond that, I've basically been told that working from home is going to be it for the long haul. As I work for a major regional utility, living right where I do now works just fine because I have field work as part of my job so I need to be near my work regardless.
won't this make things a heck of a lot worse?
No.
People won't feel like they need to move from home just to find a job.
People won't need to take work in HCOL areas just to get a job.
Speaking of HCOL, look at all the tech companies either setting up shop or looking to set up shop in SE Michigan.
Of course, some kids may say fuck it, I'm outta here. But they will do that out of want rather than necessity -- the later of which is a factor in brain drain.
I’m planning to leverage WFH in order to leave Seattle and move somewhere closer to family (maybe Michigan but probably somewhere warmer). WFH makes a lot of people uncomfortable (irrationally IMO) but you can’t deny that overall productivity is solid and has huge life balance advantages. Not to mention cost savings for employers.
I'm a Gen X'er and I can't imagine not being around people for work. I'm retired from my main career, advertising, which is such a social, collaborative industry. I think this is generational to some extent. My kids, who are 21 and 18, grew up with screens and it's intuitive and natural that they communicate via screens. It's probably more natural, in fact, for them on screens than in person. So the transition for younger people is probably easier than it would be for me, who craves in-person interaction in the workplace.
“So the transition for younger people is probably easier than it would be for me, who craves in-person interaction in the workplace.”
This is more of an introvert-extravert dynamic difference than a younger versus older issue, mostly. Not saying in your case, of course, but in general it shows up more there.
March 19th, 2021 at 10:07 PM ^
I'm an ambivert, so I liked both to work alone when i needed to, and to socialize, which was part of the creative process, at least for me. I also enjoyed leaving work at work. Work and life were separate, and I'd worry that WFH would make that separation impossible. For me, the separation was psychologically healthy and helped me do my job better.
I’m just waiting for the full time remote green light and we’re moving to the coast, somewhere between Savannah & Va Beach.
We’re in Vermont and homes are selling in one day. Just blowing up over here.
“We’re in Vermont and homes are selling in one day. Just blowing up over here.”
This is the same where I am in FL. Just literally insane market.
March 19th, 2021 at 10:21 PM ^
Yeah, it’s funny Clarence. If I was a single dude right now in the same position I’d be moving to the city. But the wifey ain’t having that, so beach it is.
AV and ride share will put the final stakes in the heart of SE MI. The OEM's could become, in large part, contract manufacturers. The tiers will hang in there a bit better as they will actually create a lot of the tech that will go into vehicles. Much of the IP will reside in Silicon Valley.
I'm in the process of selling all of our real estate here aside from a condo in A2. That might go to as I'll soon start a new job that will have me covering the entire US. I'll be able to live anywhere so long as it's near a major airport.
Ford looks like a company that is being gussied up for some M&A action -- too many OEM's out there.
It's been one year. Give return to normalcy a chance.
As a manager the biggest advantage of WFH is it is easier to fire people you have never met in real life.
Or so I have read.
Lots of interesting discussion here ...
I can certainly see some recent college grads choosing Chicago over SE Michigan if they have to be on-site only a couple of days a month. Royal Oak is nice but there are multiple Chicago neighborhoods that arguably top it in every category.
I've honestly been surprised that some companies plan to allow their employees to WFH in at least the near post-pandemic future. It means that some C-level brains haven't calcified, which is encouraging. Of course, I'm thinking of work (say, some I.T. stuff) that can be done effectively from a remote location. I tend to believe that "serendipitous water-cooler conversations" are mostly fantasy, but some jobs (e.g., advertising, which was mentioned nearby) do genuinely require lots of in-person contact.
As far as knowledge transfer is concerned, very few people bother to consider how annoying it is to have a junior person in your space several times a day rather than once / twice, especially if that person clearly hasn't carefully "read the (time-tested) manual" first. It's a good way to see who has attention to detail, though.
Florida: Never mind rising sea levels for a moment. If you're WFH you don't have to worry about hygiene. If you break a sweat taking out the trash (very realistic there several months out of the year), no big deal.
I'd still be nervous about relocating my family unless I had rare and in-demand skills. I can imagine some WFH set-ups rolling back over a couple of years after the smoke clears. American culture is very extroverted and lots of extroverts aren't handling this well.
I have been working from home since 2003, and still live within commuting distance of my employer so I can go in for meetings etc.
The very real thing that is going to drive those relocations is just basic economics. People are, without a doubt, moving to Florida because they can work. The number of people I have personally encountered who have specifically said that they have moved here during the pandemic because of economics has truly shocked me. And I do not mean this in a political manner whatsoever.