OT: Bally Sports nearing possible bankruptcy
We all know that schadenfreude is one of the best kinds of freude, so I was pleased to read in the NYT this morning that Bally Sports (Diamond Sports Group) missed a large interest payment due on its nearly $9 billion in debt, raising the likelihood of a potential bankruptcy.
Those of you who, like myself, subscribe to YouTube TV will know Bally Sports as the turd clowns who wouldn't "play ball" with YTTV, meaning we here in Michigan don't get to watch the Tigers/Pistons/Red Wings as we'd grown accustomed to for decades on regional sports predecessors Fox Sports Detroit and PASS Sports. Contrary to Bally's gamble, this viewer, and apparently millions of others, refused to capitulate and buy some overpriced add-on subscription service to watch my teams all miss the playoffs annually.
Hopefully the end result of this process is a reappearance of regional sports coverage within the main subscription package of YTTV. Those of you with a better understanding of licensing agreements like this, I'd be interested to hear what you think the likely outcome will be.
(Additional coverage of the story from ESPN.)
February 16th, 2023 at 10:23 AM ^
You hate to see it!
February 16th, 2023 at 10:33 AM ^
I literally said the same thing. I was so excited to watch the Pistons this year and so upset to find out that I had to subscribe to BS to do so, as I can't even watch my in-market team on NBA league pass. In addition to being owned by Sinclair, who I would never give money to--even if they had the rights to a winning team--BS was more expensive than Netflix, Hulu, Disney+ and any other streaming platform. I truly hope this craters BS and Sinclair, and shame on the Pistons, Red Wings, and Tigers for making their fans choose between not watching and paying for a crap service (to watch respective crap products).
February 16th, 2023 at 10:57 AM ^
hard to blame the Pistons, Red Wings, and Tigers when Bally was dangling massive amounts of money in front of them
February 16th, 2023 at 12:00 PM ^
Weren't they already under contract with FSD once Bally acquired the regional sports networks?
February 16th, 2023 at 1:50 PM ^
possibly, but i doubt they said "hey, you're screwing over the viewers, so we won't accept the money we are owed under the Fox contract any more"
February 16th, 2023 at 12:56 PM ^
I don't like this reasoning, it's way too common today. At what point is enough, enough? If money is the end all, our society may as well just fold it up right now.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:11 PM ^
I don't disagree with you, but I think the answer for the "haves" is enough is never enough. These are the same people that will tell poor kids not to take student loans if they can't afford to pay them back (thus ensuring that the wealthy continue to send their kids to college and keep the poor poor), while filing for bankruptcy for their shit company and leave a lot of people holding worthless IOUs. The system is fucked, but it is ran by the people doing the fucking.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:25 PM ^
So "poor" kids should take loans they can't afford to pay back because other people's parents pay for their kids college?
First, the truly poor get Pell Grants. Second, those of us who were unfortunate enough to grow up just well off enough to never get free government cash, but not quite rich enough for our parents to pay our way into adulthood had/have many other options than to get into debt to get a degree that doesn't pay for itself.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:32 PM ^
I was referring more to the fact that almost all debt is eligible for bankruptcy and the rich use that to their benefit, while student loan debt is not dischargeable. That was the "fucked" part of the system I was referring to.
The only reason I brought up student loans is because of their unique status as being non-dischargeable, yet companies that recieve government subsidies file bankruptcy all the time.
There are lots of issues with higher education that need to be addressed but I did not intend to open that can of worms.
February 16th, 2023 at 2:14 PM ^
I was referring more to the fact that almost all debt is eligible for bankruptcy and the rich use that to their benefit, while student loan debt is not dischargeable. That was the "fucked" part of the system I was referring to.
The only reason I brought up student loans is because of their unique status as being non-dischargeable, yet companies that recieve government subsidies file bankruptcy all the time.
The fact that student loans are non-dischargeable in bankruptcy stems directly from the unique nature of student loans to begin with. Unlike almost any other type of loan, student loans are never secured. Most loans come with a built-in security interest, often tied directly to what the loan is being used to buy (e.g. mortgages have a security interest in the purchased property, auto loans have a security interest in the purchased car, etc.). Most other loans, when not of this type, use some other collateral as security, be it property, inventory, equipment, equity, cashflow, etc.
Student loans are pretty unique in that there is no security interest inherent in the loan. Yes, there is a guarantee to pay it back, but the loan isn't tied to any particular piece of property, the real upshot of which is that you can get student loans without having any property that could otherwise be used as collateral (good luck getting pretty much any other type of loan in such a situation--no collateral even identifiable).
When a secured loan defaults, the first recourse of the creditor is to seize the collateral to at least partially satisfy the debt. But with a student loan, again there's no collateral to seize--the creditor can't take back your degree. In a liquidation bankruptcy, assets are liquidated to pay off debts, and in the end all the debts are discharged whether fully satisfied or not. When considering default of student loans, it's conceivable that many debtors would have little to no assets that could be liquidated. So the fact that student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy provides pretty much the only security to lenders, otherwise people would be amassing huge student debt, declaring bankruptcy and walking away. Take that away, and there's little incentive for private lenders to continue to give out student loans, at least for lower income borrowers that can't provide the collateral that would almost certainly start to be required going forward.
February 16th, 2023 at 2:46 PM ^
Student loan debt is unique and I understand the theroy around not allowing it to be dischargeable. I would counter that some of these student loan companies use that fact to take advantage students. It also allows college to crank up tutition and fees to whatever they like because students are allowed to borrow "The total cost of attendance"
Companies encourage student's to take the maximum. Offer them payback options that cover little to none of the principal and leave them paying back way more then they borrowed. Student loans destroyed the grant market and once they became almost exclusively "for profit" the incentive was not to help the "student" but to make the most money off of the "customer".
May not be a popular opinion but I think an educated populace is a benefit to a society and that a society should invest in that education without the primary motive being how to make money off of it.
February 16th, 2023 at 3:40 PM ^
Lots of things are benefits to society, but we aren't obligated to pay someone else to obtain and then benefit from them with no return on our investment. Especially given there are MANY other ways to get the money to go college, and a bunch of ways to lower your tuition bill. Community College, AP high school courses and commuter colleges for most undergraduate work are some of the easy ways. This isn't 1986. No one gives a shit where I got my BBA.
Just in case you missed it in the post above, the reason you can't discharge student loan debt is because if you relied on just a 18 year old's credit to get a loan they'd either never get one, or pay interest rates that would make the mob green with envy. Either guarantee the repayment or don't loan anyone money. Those are the real options.
February 16th, 2023 at 4:18 PM ^
I don't disagree with any of that. I would counter that the return of an educated populace to society is a more reasoned and deliberate individual (lots of jokes go here). You could also argue that an educated society leads to higher wage earners which in turn result in higher tax revenue.
I also agree that with the exception of a hand full of colleges, no one cares where you got your degree. I worry more about the practices of some lenders that push kids into taking massive amounts of money to obtain a product that is at an all time high in cost and contines to provide deminished value in return. Then the narritive of "lazy kids" don't want to work takes hold when they can't afford homes or cars or start families. There is a flaw in the system when a student pays back more money than borrowed and still owes more than the original pricipal. However, you are correct that the only real options under the current system is to guarantee payment or at least financial destruction on default to discourage it. I am a firm believer that there are 3 things that For Profit should not be involved in: Education, Health Care, and Corrections.
I do legitimately enjoy the conversation.
February 16th, 2023 at 5:18 PM ^
I don't think the not-for-profits do a particularly good job at Education, Healthcare or Corrections either. I've worked on both sides in healthcare and the difference between the two is semantics. It really took one of the hospitals I worked for to get taken over by an out-of-town not-for-profit for the community to appreciate how deep cuts could go.
I bet you could cut 1/2 the FTEs in a major university and not cut one single class. They are so full of salary bloat it boggles the mind. Yes, some of these regional universities are seeing declining enrollment, and that's actually a good thing. Maybe they will be the vanguard of cutting some of the fat to cut costs and tuition to increase enrollment.
I suspect not. Parents seem to be willing to do anything to send their kid to school the kid wants to go to. Including putting them into debt.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:46 PM ^
I get that and I agree with you for the most part. I have been offered quite a bit more $$$ to change jobs but I am happy where i am. quality of life >>>> money.
that being said, if someone were to offer me enough, yea, i would change. and so would most people.
almost everyone that complains about "teh billionaires are bad people and ruin everything and no one needs that much money" also buy a ton of mega millions and powerball tickets when it gets up to hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. praying to become what they hate because "they'll do it better and the right way blah blah."
money allows you to do more, and do it better. i don't blame anyone, even a team, for accepting $$ that could improve their situation.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:06 PM ^
Right, I'm surprised the teams haven't raised more hell about this even before the bankruptcy. Bally's coverage is so bad/unavailable that it's changing people's viewing habits and ruining/eliminating the product. I'm one of the biggest Cleveland Cavs and Guardians fans you'll meet, and even I don't bother most nights because they're not available on YouTubeTV and the app is such a pain. I can't even imagine how much less casual fans are watching now. And local TV viewership is huge for baseball and still important for basketball and hockey.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:24 AM ^
Saw this the other day and was hoping Fox Sports Indiana would be able to pick up the Pacers games once they file. Fingers crossed.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:33 AM ^
Isn’t Fox Sports Indiana now Bally Indiana? Fox had to sell all of the stations after Disney acquired 21st Century Fox due some type of antitrust / monopoly ruling. Bally’s way overpaid for the stations and didn’t secure deals with some streaming avenues. It also hasn’t helped that about 25% of MLB and NBA teams have no interest in winning each year. They’re in trouble.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
Yes, it looks like Fox Sports regional networks are now all gone. But with Bally out of the way, the market is open again for someone to pick up these games.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:30 PM ^
Sure, the market is open, but at what price? Obviously not what Bally is getting paid. And Bally can't service their debt at current rates.
Best case right now would be bankruptcy so they can renegotiate the carriage contracts and financing. Hopefully they can leverage some out of region availability clauses.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:35 AM ^
Even though I'm a Pistons fan, I've always had a soft spot for the Pacers. Back in the early 90s I liked to play Tecmo NBA Basketball on the NES, and the Pacers were lights out - not just Reggie Miller canning threes, but the supporting cast of Schrempf, Smits, and the flaming inverno, Vern Fleming. Once you got good at the game you could pretty much get the Dunking Dutchman to do a windmill jam on every possession. Epic Pacers teams back then. I feel like they're just now recovering from Tayshaun's block in the '04 Conference Finals. For you younguns who may be seeing this highlight for the first time, note the score: THAT was Pistons basketball, and it was AWESOME!
February 16th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
They never really recovered after the Malice in the Palace. That was the year they had the squad to win it all. And if Reggie just goes up and dunks the ball, that Tayshaun block likely never happens or is a foul.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:14 AM ^
Get NBA League Pass for $14.99 a month / $99 a year (maybe $49 for Amzn Prime members) and use a VPN to bypass the local blackout.
February 16th, 2023 at 12:12 PM ^
Same bullshit in Ohio. Cut the Direct TV cord a couple of years ago and now have YTTV. Haven’t watched a Cleveland game in years. Fuck Bally.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:25 AM ^
I have Hulu live and haven’t watched a tigers or Pistons game since they pulled that
February 16th, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
You haven't missed anything. The Pistons are still in tank mode and don't appear able to get out.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:23 AM ^
That's the whole point of tank mode.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:55 PM ^
You may be missing one key element.
February 16th, 2023 at 2:42 PM ^
Underpants, or profit?
February 16th, 2023 at 4:48 PM ^
You don't "get out" of tank mode. Your only objective in tank mode is to not win. One cannot be in tank mode whilst simultaneously trying to "get out" of it. You live in it until you decide to move.
We won't see them out of tank mode until next season (at the earliest, assuming they suffer no major injuries.) They probably still won't be any good for a couple seasons, but at that point they should have plenty of young pieces, a healthy Cunningham, and/or assets they are ready to move for a player who can help them win.
If you're not tanking but still bad, you're not in tank mode. You're just bad. In tank mode you're bad because that's the whole point.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:25 AM ^
I don't know what the long-term fallout of this will be but in the short-term I am admittedly rooting for their demise. I'm a big baseball fan currently living in West Virginia. As a Mets fan I cannot watch when they play the Reds, Pirates, Indians AND Nationals. When you're forking over whatever it is to MLB Network only to not be able to watch about 25% of the season it is awfully frustrating.
February 16th, 2023 at 1:48 PM ^
First, always great to meet another Mets fan.
Second, you're saying that with MLB.tv, you can't get any of those surrounding area broadcasts via Amazon prime video?
I'm trying to figure things out for this season. With Comcast I just purchased the Extra Innings package and got all the SNY broadcasts. Now I'm using Hulu Live, so I know I won't get any Twins-Tigers games, but those teams suck so I don't give a damn. But I need to be able to get all the Mets games.
February 16th, 2023 at 5:29 PM ^
Vlad,
when I watch through the MLB app the games are blacked out when they play those teams (Nats games are inconsistent). When the Mets are on Prime or nationally against those teams I can watch but I don’t get Gary, Keith and Ron and as a Mets fan I’d much prefer to listen to them.
February 16th, 2023 at 2:19 PM ^
I don’t know the details of Bally’s ownership of the streaming ecosystem here, but the losers in a bankruptcy are likely to the bond holders who's debt is wiped out, the equity holders who get less or zero, and the paying subscribers who’s prices go up. Management will not change and get a reallocation.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:26 AM ^
Probably just means they will reemerge out of bankruptcy with less debt. Fubo now offers Bally's along with Directv Stream which is the service I currently use. I'll probably switch to Fubo at some point because it's a little cheaper. I used it once before and I liked the interface. Some channels like Turner aren't included which sucks at tournament time. I like watching local teams even if they suck...
February 16th, 2023 at 11:36 AM ^
Fubo just raised prices by an extreme amount, especially when considering the new regional sports fee.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:34 AM ^
Good. Fuck Bally Sports. I, too, refused to pay for that shit. Stupid-ass business model.
February 16th, 2023 at 12:58 PM ^
With their current situation, it appears a lot of people refused to pay for that shit.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:37 AM ^
"Turd Clowns". Couldn't have said it better myself.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:39 AM ^
Does anyone know whether this debt and possible bankruptcy might have any negative impact on Sinclair, which owns Diamond Sports? Somehow I doubt it, but one can hope...
February 16th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
Sinclair will write it off as a business loss and not have to pay taxes for the next 15 years.
February 16th, 2023 at 10:45 AM ^
As a YTTV subscriber, suck it Bally. Your BS+ offer was trash, and although I miss my hockey and baseball games, I'm glad I have not given in. I miss Fox Regional Networks.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:07 AM ^
they buy what we used to get for free then charge a premium for it, then wonder why they're not making money ....
HAHAHAHAHA
February 16th, 2023 at 1:21 PM ^
Agreed, Bally can suck it.
Good news is YTTV is now home of the old NFL Sunday Ticket as DirecTV was kicked to the curb. Great timing as a Lions fan!
February 16th, 2023 at 10:54 AM ^
I don't like paying for Bally's but I do find it funny that people will gladly pay $400 to take their family of four to one game but go apeshit about paying $180/yr for 400 plus games on tv. What's the correct price for it?
February 16th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
a) going to games is an experience for the family. many shared memories with my wife and kids doing so. worth every nickel.
b) why do you care what people spend their money on?
c) fuck Bally and Sinclair
d) the correct price for it is -$300 a day. Yes, Bally (Sinclair) should pay us $300 a day to watch their broadcasts because fuck em, that's why.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:12 AM ^
Got it. This is like talking to mom about why she shouldn't drive 45 minutes to save 2 cents a gallon on gas. Obviously great experience going to games. Also a great experience watching hundreds of Phillies games on tv growing up with my dad.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:26 AM ^
This is like talking to mom about why she shouldn't drive 45 minutes to save 2 cents a gallon on gas.
i have no idea what point you're trying to make ... i was just pointing out, in a very non-serious way, that it's odd you seem to be surprised people hate Bally and refuse to purchase it, and use how they spend their money otherwise as an example
some people would pay a lot more to stick it to a company like them.
February 16th, 2023 at 11:46 AM ^
I thought it was obvious. People are emotionally charged about the price of this service similar to how people react to gas prices.
You were always paying for the regional sports. Now that's it separately stated you go nuts about it while you're still probably paying less overall than you used to. If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy it. I don't buy HBO for that reason, but I also don't demand that they should offer it for free.