OT: Ann Arbor and Metro Detroit
For many older people, the term "Metro Detroit" conjures up images of a tricounty area consisting of Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties. In 2000, the US Census defined it as those counties plus Lapeer, Livingston and St. Clair.
I had this discussion with my father recently... I opined that in 2010, Washtenaw County would probably be added to that definition. He objected. We talked about it for it a long time, his rationale involved what I deemed to be a very 70's view of Ann Arbor... one in which it was a distant place, getting to which required a long and treacherous drive through badlands only to arrive at a utopia which bore no resemblance to the dying urban sprawl of Metro Detroit. My Ann Arbor is quite different... it's 20 minutes of the same old highways from the most densely populated parts of the Detroit area, it's a place where the local news is the same local news as in Detroit, and a place already part of that urban sprawl.
The long and short of this... I'd like to know what you guys think. Is Ann Arbor a part of Metro Detroit? Is it it's own entity? Is it something weird and in between?
I don't understand how St. Clair county is considered Metro Detroit. In my opinion the urban sprawl ends at 26 mile road.
St. Clair makes more sense than Lapeer.
That is very true. Lapeer is way the hell out there. US Census Bureau is obviously ignorant to reality.
The hippies of the Ann Arbor city council and their greenbelt would strongly disagree.
The townies think that it's its own island unrelated to the surrounding/encroaching metro area, but the distinction is more mental than physical any more.
Pretty much this. Also interesting to note that the two men in your avatar, Ann Arbor residents, met their ultimate end in Southfiled.
I was just in Southfield 2 weeks ago, on my way back to Ann Arbor, but I did not wind up dead or fired.
My Ann Arbor is nothing like Detroit. Whenever I watch the Detroit news I never know what/where the area they are talking about is.
Interesting. Are you a student? I was exempting the student population who mostly never leave the campus area, even to see other parts of Ann Arbor.
I live on the west side of a2 so I'm closer to some of the rural towns. That's probably why I don't associate a2 with Metro Detroit.
Interesting, my friend. Obviously, western Washtenaw is exempted. Nobody is going to confuse Chelsea or Manchester for Detroit.
heh, i hope not.
This is why I'd not include Monroe, there is nothing urban there.
The day western Washtenaw is so built up that Chelsea gets lumped into the Detroit area is the day I seriously consider moving further west in the mitten. That would be a sad, sad day.
I have a hard time accepting that anything outside of 10-15 miles outside of Detroit is "Metro Detroit," but that's probably because I grew up on the east side of Livonia (purely from a geographic standpoint). I wouldn't hardly consider Ann Arbor part of Metro Detroit simply on the grounds that Ann Arbor is a big enough municipality with its own identity and with enough space between it/Ypsilanti and Detroit to consider it a part of Metro Detroit. Without Detroit, Livonia really has no identity.
That can't be right. Canton is like 20 miles from the Detroit city limits, and there can really be little doubt about that being Metro Detroit.
The western outskirts of Canton, yes -- but again, the point was that my bias tells me this particular number because of where I'm from.
I'm sure there are guys from Romeo that feel they're from Metro Detroit. It's just geographical bias and identity bias.
Kid Rock certainly seems to think so.
Romeo is made of back and water. There is nothing there. There never WAS anything there. How the heck can that be part of Metro Detroit?
That said, I've heard portions of northern Monroe County described as part of the Metro area too, which I disagree with, except for the easy access to DTW.
Ann Arbor is not part of Metro Detroit in my book.
Well, FWIW, Romeo High School is in the Macomb Area Conference along with all the Sterling Heights and Warren schools and whatnot. Having them in our division for swimming and them being part of the regular schedule and all, I always felt like they were as much a part of the metro area as anything. Sure, they were long-ass bus rides out there, but not much longer than when we'd have to go to Utica or Ypsi - hell, Ypsi's closer to Detroit than Utica is and I'd bet most people would consider it part of the AA metro area rather than Detroit.
Ypsi is a unique situation. My dad conceded Ypsi as a part of Metro Detroit, and I think a lot of people would view it this way... the GM plant in Ypsi drew people from all over, my dad's credit union is in Ypsi, Willow Run draws lots of people, EMU is a commuter school for suburban Detroit. In fact, I think Ypsi is what would bring Washtenaw into the MSA for Detroit and not really Ann Arbor.
Ann Arbor is not included in the formal Detroit "Metropolitan Statistical Area" or MSA. See link for definitions and stack-ranking of American MSA's: http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Standard+Metropolitan+Statist…
This is covered in the post.
The federal government actually has multiple definitions of what the Detroit area encompasses, depending on which agency is doing the counting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Detroit
But anyway, to answer your question, if you are defining "Metro Detroit" as those areas that are strongly linked to Detroit economically and culturally, I think Ann Arbor has to be considered separate. The main employer/cultural institution in town is the university, and not something found in Detroit or another community.
True - if you use "Metropolitan Statistical Area" then Ann Arbor is separate, but if you use "Combined Statistical Area", southeast Michigan is all one big thing - including Detroit, Flint, PH, AA, and Monroe.
I think there's no question that you're right though - culturally speaking, Ann Arbor is separate.
Having lived in Ann Arbor (and Michigan) all my life, I don't think I've ever considered AA a part of Metro Detroit. I associate it with Southeastern Michigan which I also associate Detroit with, but I guess you could consider it a part of Metro.
It doesn't seem out of the reach of the Metro area. I've always thought of the outlying suburbs of Detroit as a group, one that thinks alike and acts together. Ann Arbor on the other hand has always seemed to be out of that reach. It's close enough that it could be associated with that group, but just far enough away that it could act independent of it.
Brodie's Dad +1.
I also grew up in A2 and have never, ever considered us to be a part of Detroit. Now, living outside the state it bugs me when people assume that since A2 is in SE Michigan that i'm from metro Detroit. I know, it's weird but I don't like it.
A2 has always done its best to keep to itself. Everyone in A2 and outside of A2 views it as being odd, and just different from the rest of the area anyways. Really, is Ann Arbor anything like Rochester Hills, Livonia, or Bloomfield? Not at all...
I too grew up in Ann Arbor and have the same sentiment as turbo. That said, we did read Detroit papers and watched Detroit news. Channel 50 actually. What was the name of the female news anchor in the late 80's/early 90's on channel 50?
A2 is not a part of Detroit, not even close. Brodie, you are the only person that I have ever heard that from.
To support your argument, yes it is closer and more similar that it has been in the past, but that does not mean they are one of the same. A2 and Detroit are still very different in many ways. To me, this is like saying Milwaukee is a suburb of Chicago (yes, I know, its exaggerated).
Quote:
"The United States Office of Management and Budget defines the Detroit–Warren–Livonia Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) as the six counties of Lapeer, Livingston, Macomb, Oakland, St. Clair, and Wayne. As of the 2000 census, the MSA had a population of 4,441,551. The Census Bureau's 2008 estimate placed the population at 4,425,110, which ranks it as the eleventh-largest MSA. The MSA covers an area of 3,913 square miles (10,130 km2).
The nine-county area designated by the United States Census Bureau as the Detroit–Ann Arbor–Flint Combined Statistical Area (CSA) includes the three additional counties of Genesee, Monroe, and Washtenaw, the metropolitan areas of Flint, Ann Arbor, and Monroe, plus the Detroit-Warren-Livonia MSA. It had a population of 5,357,538 as of the 2000 census. The Census Bureau's 2008 estimate placed the population at 5,354,225.[1] This CSA covers an area of 5,814 square miles (15,060 km2). Lenawee County was removed from Detroit's CSA in 2000."
I don't think for myself. Wikipedia does that for me. And Wikipedia says the Metropolitan Statistical Area is the tri-county plus some, and the Combined Statistical Area includes Ann Arbor and some others.
Article
we're saying that A2 isn't in the Detroit Metro (agreed), but that it is in some contrived combined statistical area with Detroit that sounds a lot like "region of the state."
Personally, I usually equate "metro" with "city and suburbs," which Ann Arbor, in my opinion, is not a part of.
Conclusion: Ann Arbor is sort of near Detroit, but not a suburb / part of the metro area.
The CSA will probably be extended to Toledo in 2010, too.
Culturally, Ann Arbor is pretty separate from Metro Detroit.
Technically, I would argue it's part of the region. The suburban sprawl runs right up to Ann Arbor. Crain's Detroit Business (not the ultimate authority, but FWIW) defines its coverage area as Wayne, Oakland, Macomb, Livingston and Washtenaw.
How's that for a waffle?
I think if you were to, with no background knowledge, look at a satellite photo of the region you'd assume Ypsi and Ann Arbor were both part of the "Metro" Detroit area. Culturally, I don't think you can bring the two together.
I don't know, I lived in Ann Arbor and found the culture really Metro Detroit mixed with general left of center college town. Again, the primary cultural differences are all tied to the university.
When people group cities together like this, however, they're looking at the map and not considering the culture of each individual area. Look at Minneapolis and St. Paul, AKA the Twin Cities. Both cities are clearly distinct entities, and most residents of the two cities would agree (particularly if they're from St. Paul, in my experience). Geographically, though, they're one big city.
Having said that, Ann Arbor is still a bit of an edge case. You could make a case for separating it from the Metro Detroit area, although it's a lot weaker than it was when I was going to Michigan games as a kid in the late seventies and early eighties. If urban sprawl continues at the current rate (we'll see), any geographic argument will be gone in another twenty years.
I have lived here since I graduated. The cities are distinct, but form one metro area.
One big key there is that the cities share a common border aka they are ZERO miles apart (sure, the downtown areas are maybe 8 miles apart, but that's still closer than Ann Arbor is to Detroit ~40 Miles!). Here's an image to make the point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Twin_Cities_Metro_Area_(13_County).png
HOWEVA, you might look at the Cincinnati / Dayton area for a proximate situation. There are arguments to merge the two cities into one mega metro area because the cities have sprawled so much that the area between is rapidly becoming suburbia (its still pretty rural to be honest, but whatever). Anyhow, they are about 45 miles apart, and may one day be considered the same metro. I'd argue that Cincinnati and Dayton will still claim their own metro areas after there is some kind of technical change to merge them.
If / when this happens, and if the population b/w A2 and Detroit becomes increasingly dense, then they MAY be considered the same metro, but I don't really think it is likely.
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the MSP analogy would be more apt if one were arguing to include, say, St. Cloud in the Twin Cities metro, which it isn't.
Trying to think of other good analogues that are similar enough - Cleveland / Akron? I don't know. It is a bit of a convoluted topic, but I obviously like thinking about it.
Cleveland's suburban sprawl does not extend all the way to Akron. Frankly what makes Ann Arbor unique is that it's geographically right next to the very core of Metro Detroit, it's the next county over and most of the vaunted 40 miles between the two are endless suburbs. I did think St Cloud was a solid example, though.
I don't need to look at your map to know that geographically, Minneapolis and St. Paul are the same metro area. At the same time, from a cultural perspective they're two distinct areas--like Ann Arbor and Detroit. In other words, I don't find the cultural argument all that compelling. I was not suggesting that the Twin Cities are geographically analogous to Ann Arbor/Detroit.
In 20-50 years, I suspect the Detroit suburbs will have pretty much overgrown Ann Arbor and there will be no geographic argument against adding Ann Arbor to the metro Detroit area.
Well, the argument would fall flat since they're still part of the same metro area. Again, indefinable culture is not taken into account.
ends at the counties that touch I275 and 696.
So you'd say Metro does run into Monroe county, then?
not south of the nine-fo
Having lived in Ann Arbor while working in Detroit, I'd say they are separate. The distance is rather far (50 miles), and while Washtenaw County has been negatively affected by the deterioration of the Big 3, the impact in AA is far less than that of the tri-county area of Detroit.
The major economic impact that affected Ann Arbor was the loss of Pfizer, which had almost no discernible impact on metro Detroit.
The areas are separate, but close enough to make this discussion interesting.
Detroit is shrinking. Many are either moving to the suburbs or just getting the heck out of Michigan.
I guess you can still call it "Metro Detroit" just like you can say "Metro Los Angeles," but in reality, it's hard to say either area has a true center any more.
As those on this board who grew up in AA explain, they never considered AA to be part of greater Detroit. The independence of AA is even greater in recent times, due to Detroit's shrinkage.
No, you call Detroit the center because it still has (at least) 800,000 people. And frankly, while people have left... there's also a shitload of people who worked in Ypsi for GM who have also left. The idea that Ann Arbor is prospering while the rest of the state fails is humorous.
I never said Ann Arbor was prospering (and for that matter, I wasn't talking about prosperity, but population). What I'm referring to is a general process seen in many metropolitan areas where the old urban center ceases to grow while the suburbs grow or simply maintain. I think you'll find this has been happening across the midwest for decades. There are a lot of midwestern cities attempting to revitalize their downtowns, and it generally doesn't work.
It's been happening for a long time. It started with the creation of highways under Eisenhower (making it easier to commute) and continued with the race riots in the 60's ("white flight"). There are also other factors too numerous to mention.
If you look at the numbers (just look at wikipedia for city of detroit - most of it comes from the census), you will see that the population of the metro area has remained more or less constant (decreasing a bit recently) over the last few decades. The City of Detroit has steadily lost people, and is now half the size of its population in 1950.
Don't kill the messenger.
I-94.
Yeah, not much different. I-94 replaced US-12 and the Edsel Ford Freeway in 1962. After that, Washtenaw County was no harder to get to than it is today.
The biggest difference between then and now isn't the roads, but where the population centers of Metro Detroit have shifted to. If you live in Novi or Livonia or Farmington or Westland, those are all actually a closer drive to Ann Arbor than, say, St. Clair Shores.
The only thing I would consider counting Ann Arbor in "Metro Detroit" for would be college athletics, since Michigan's teams are supported largely from Metro Area fans.