OT: 4th of July Parties linked to COVID-19 outbreaks (Saline & Torch Lake)
FYI to those who may have been exposed, or have come into contact with someone that may have been.
Torch Lake:
I’ve been waiting to read about outbreaks caused by Jobbie Nooner on Lake St. Claire. Did that start any outbreaks, or did the already rampant herpes virus kill the Covid in that population??
All the piss in the water scared off Covid.
The man and the legend.
It's almost as if science and math are real things.
*PLEASE* don't be dumb. We can really reduce this thing if we just follow some basic, painless guidelines: Wear a mask as requested and avoid large groups. Two months of 95% of people not being selfish idiots and we'd have some nice things back: Jobs, health, and football among them.
Generally speaking, I like the spirit of your post: If most people just exercise good common sense, we can slow the spread of this thing and resume normalcy at some point. The problem is in the details: What do you define as "large groups" and when is mask wearing necessary? And for how long are we going to do these things? For a few months? Sure. But what if the expected vaccine isn't a success? It is not a guaranty. Will we cancel live sports for 3 years?
I don't have the answers; just throwing out some philosophical questions.
I'll give it a crack:
Wear a mask EVERY SINGLE TIME you are in a group or in public. Do your part. Don't be one of these people who, on their dying bed, expresses regret they thought COVID was a "hoax."
A "large group" is anyone more than 10 people.
Do it until there's a vaccine.
Live sports won't be cancelled for 3 years. Wait, they might if Americans continue to act like this virus cares about things like "liberty" or "freedom." All it cares about is "new things to infect."
Why does there need to be a designated end time? Until it's over, or at least under control. No, we don't know how long that is but that shouldn't impact whether or not you follow the guidelines.
I'm wear a mask if I'm going to be within 10 foot of anyone who I haven't kissed at some point in the last few months. (We're actually quaranteaming with another family who I haven't kissed, but they count as kissable.)
No sports sucks, but I'd gladly sacrifice a couple of years of sports over a [1%] chance that my kids, wife, dad, siblings, nephews, or nieces might die. ...or even my neighbor who's politics I don't agree with.
Sorry, michgoblue. Out-of-larger-context that wasn't a bad post. In these threads, though, you've been one of the masters of the long-winded voice-of-reason post that actually seeks to advance the discussion a certain way. Your posts aren't quite what they seem. In a way, you could take that as a compliment.
"It's almost as if science and math are real things."
NOOOO!!!!! They are not - they're FAKE. The CDC is lying to us and Fauci is an asshole that made mistakes cause humans are infallible! Everybody knows you can go back to school cause all the best people are saying so! The CDC gets horrible ratings! Fauci is a LOSER that doesn't know anything about epademics! And that's not racist! I'm gonna fly my Confederate flag cause Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis are great 'Merican HEROS!!! They got GREAT ratings! Way better than obama ratings!
'MURICA!!!
Think we've got a Love Connection!
I have to admit, even as insane as 2020 has been, Chuck Woolery throwing his hat into the ring totally caught be by surprise. Did not see that one coming at all.
At my high school he was the most popular write-in candidate for graduation speaker. Couldn't get him ...
That’s a damn shame.
On a side note - has anyone ever seen Chuck Woolery and Brad Nessler in the same place?
Are we 100% sure that the guy who called "Touchdown Manningham!!! Michigan Wins!!!" didn't make that tweet?
Permissable tribalism, and the desire to put yourself above (superior) others that you demonize and for whom you reduce into false caricatures = the reason you are so, so into politics
Hello from Europe, where we fucked up pretty bad early on, then got serious* and now, plenty of moronic assholes can go around town without wearing masks without actually causing an outbreak. Why? Because for Covid-19 to propagate widely it seems to be highly dependent upon superspreader events. Once it is under control if people continue social distancing, only gathering in groups of 20 or fewer, it apparently can be kept to the levels we are seeing here now. (At least in warmer months. Fingers crossed it continues.)
*Serious meant a real quarantine for 2-3 months. In Italy you could only go to the supermarket at your designated time once per week, and only one family member. In France, if you were caught leaving your house at the wrong time without the right purpose, you got a pretty heavy fine. etc. etc. etc.
Those three months SUCKED. I had my kids at home, with a full course load for which I was the teacher plus ~15 zoom calls per week, nanny/maid couldn't come to help at all (and we had to keep paying her), and my wife and I still had our full time jobs to do. But things are relatively back to normal now.
The US has to start all over again asap, just as BornInA2 suggests. The path is pretty clear. But of course, that won't happen because of politics/ignorance/FREEDOM.
I think that the only way these types of incidents will slow down is if there are financial or legal penalties associated to it that are enforced.
Regardless of my feelings on this whole thing, I've masked-up pretty religiously when in public throughout the pandemic. With the order last week, for the first time I've found myself becoming a little pissed about those I see in stores who are not masked-up. People, whether you think Covid is real or some elaborate global hoax, it is literally one of the smallest infringements on your liberty ever. Just wear it...
So you think we should fine BLM protests? Racist.
This is a shitpost so whatever, but there's not a ton of evidence that the protests caused significant upticks in cases. Now, there is a fair bit of evidence that states re-opening too early and people, apparently, hosting house parties and other packed events with limited social distancing have caused some spikes.
But yes, you sure got us with your clever quip.
You honestly think the protests with thousands of people packed together marching down the street didn’t cause any upticks, but house parties are? You’re just drinking the koolaid man.
You mean a bunch of people marching around outside, many wearing masks versus a bunch of people drinking inside, near each other, and doing the types of close, personal activities that occur when alcohol and people mix? Yeah, I'm comfortable saying so.
And most of these marches happened 6-7 weeks ago; the massive upticks we're seeing now are happening later than the usual timeline we've seen for exposures, to say nothing of the fact that these marches happened across the country and one would have assumed you'd see increases across the country, not merely record-breaking cases in the Southeast and West, areas that (with the exception of California) were rather lax with their preventive measures and featured a number of political figures openly fighting against some of them.
Again, if you've got some evidence that point to the marches being a key vector for this massive spread share it (just not the Fox News "article" that doesn't actually link to supporting articles in any form). But it's far more likely that the re-opening of various states with inferior preventive measures in place are causing the rates we're seeing.
What is your evidence?
I know there were protest in NYC (my cousin, a doctor, was in one of them...they masked up) and the numbers there have fallen precipitously.
You seem to have a beef with the protest more than concern for the protesters.
Drinking and talking loudly over music in each others faces w damn near no one wearing masks (who goes to a bar or party and wears a face mask?) is a clear recipe for disaster.
almost all of them with masks, but share your source
The media reports that parties cause spikes, but protest marches don’t. I am shocked!
That you and others fall for that crap is much less shocking.
P.S. I am no way condoning these parties or other irresponsible behavior.
Honestly inquiring:
If the protests did not contribute to the uptick because the protesters wore masks and were outside, why can't we watch football outside while wearing masks? I'm not saying we should, and I am not including the players in this, for whom there are obviously other considerations (nor the MMB, of which I took part. I wouldn't want to blow a contagion out of my trombone). What is the science on the difference between the protests and sports fans?
You can't really see the difference between a protest and a football game?
I went to a march in Ferndale a few months ago. Every single person was wearing a mask. We spent about an hour marching up Nine Mile Road and then spent about another hour in a park listening to various speakers. Even though there were thousands of people, everyone made a concerted effort to stay as far away from one another as possible.
Contrast that with a football game, where you are sitting in the exact same spot for about four hours...which is very different than marching up or down a road. And you have 110,000 people sitting shoulder to shoulder and knee to back...all screaming, cheering, singing, talking, etc.
You don't see the difference? Really?
Fine...space out 20000 fans, and you can't get in without a face mask like you can't board a four hour Delta flight without one... Now please revisit your indignance...
You asked a question...and I provided a factual answer explaining the difference between 110K people at a football game and people marching/protesting.
Now you've changed the fact set...so don't get mad at me just because I answered the question you originally asked...not the one that fits your POV on this issue.
To answer your question, I'm not sure it really changes much. Are students (I'm assuming that at 20k, it's all students) going to keep the masks on? Keep at a distance from one another? Not party before and after the games? Not crowd in the concourses or bathrooms? Not share food, beverages, smokes, etc? In other words, the football game is just one small part of the overall experience of the day...and just a small part of the risks of holding the games.
OK, I'll answer this honest question:
- With any action comes risk. Assuming that attending a protest and a sporting event (both outside) have the same amount of risk, the next question: what are the benefits of that activity?
1) The benefit to protests is that you can get hopefully long-lasting change to serious problems, some that have affected our nation for hundreds of years. This could improve the lives of literally millions of people, especially those that have been traditionally treated poorly.
2) The benefit to sports fans in the stands is people have some fun and teams generate some revenue.
Now, having some fun and generating some revenue aren't unimportant (esp the latter).
But you can't chose your time for great societal change; this is a generational event. We can (hopefully) safely watch football games etc next fall in person and there are other ways to address the revenue shortfalls (e.g., government funding; use the endowment).
the long lasting change is gonna be alot of people dead by corona virus.
The people who use the protests as a scapegoat for the recent spike in Covid cases aren't interested in a logical discussion about epidemiology/ r0/ societal risk-benefit analysis. They're just using it to de-legitimize the protests.
It's why some people have talked about possibly hosting sporting events with limited fan attendance. If everyone wore a mask for 3-4 hours, washed their hands when they went to the bathroom, limited food and drink consumption, and generally maintained proper social distancing measures I don't think it's a crazy idea.
But that's unlikely to happen. When I went to a couple of marches here in Boston, people kept some distance from each other, EVERYONE work a mask (even little kids), and it was about an hour outside. I didn't go to the larger rallies downtown so I can't speak for those, but again most people seemed to wear masks. I can say, after interacting with human beings for 39 years and reading enough on this site and elsewhere, that there would be a contingent of fans at every game who would eschew masks and other measures as soon as they sat down, claiming "I paid for these tickets and I want to be comfortable" and what have you. They'd suddenly become experts in disease transmission outside and fight with anyone who pushed back. Now, maybe I'm overly pessimistic and it would all go great; if sports happen in the fall maybe we'll see that. But I'm not optimistic because we, as a country, haven't shown we can handle nice things.
There are lots of things we could do if we socially distanced were possible, wear masks in any group setting and just behaved ourselves. You would (right) and I would, but I'm not comfortable with the other 108,000.
I’m fairly libertarian-leaning, and I have to agree with this. We have shown that saving lives, safeguarding the economy, and keeping sports on the calendar are no match when getting drunk with your buds is at risk. Time to hit them in their pockets.
You claim to be a libertarian but then say we should fine people for not listening to government and their made up laws?
See, that's the point. Larry tilts toward the libertarian end of the spectrum. Despite his/her libertarian views, he/she thinks that we've reached a point in this pandemic that government-mandated fines might be useful to curtail infection rates. That's the point.
Yup.
”Made up laws”? Aren’t those … all laws?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
“Laws”?
"...that among these are Life, Liberty, the pursuit of Happiness, and the freedom to enter a private business without covering my face holes..."
first do no harm
There’s a difference between a law going through the entire process and a made up law that some authority figure pretends is real.
Executive emergency powers are well-established in the Anglo-Saxon legal tradition. If this pisses you off, you should learn about the administrative rule-making process, which delineates how the bureaucracy actually makes law in the U.S. today and has for a century...
You don't understand our legal system.
I tend to agree with you on this, Larry. But it still doesn’t change the fact DTW is a total asshole.
A LOT of people will claim that "medically" they cannot where a mask.
Sad thing is that just like the emotional support animal issue, people who really need them, and likewise those who legitimately cannot wear a mask for medical reasons, are and will be out-numbered by those with a false claim. Sad!