OL all americans and winning
This past season saw an improvement in the OL, but let's face it, they've got a way to go before getting in the neighborhood of elite.
As someone who was there to witness the glory days of Bo, one thing you never worried about was Bo having a good OL each season. Jerry Hanlon and Bo had a production line going. The only time the line was below par was due to injuries with not enough depth to overcome it. Bo's OLs were able to dictate to the other team. When you've got a great OL, plays have a chance to work as desired.
So, let's look at the number of OL players selected for all-america team honors from Bo's era through the 2018 season. The source is Michael Scott's go-to source, Wikipedia.
1970s - 7 selections, 1980s - 8 selections, 1990s - 9 selections, 2000s - 4 selections, 2010s - 3 selections (Molk once, Lewan twice)
Let's take a shorter term look at Alabama during the Saban era.
2000s - 4 selections (Saban became HC in 2007), 2010s - 9 selections
Alabama had 1 OL selected for all-america honors in 2009, but that guy wasn't a Saban recruit. Saban's first 2 selections came in 2012 (5th year of Saban): DJ Fluker and Barrett Jones. Seven selections in the last 6 years and Alabama has won multiple nat'l championships.
Alabama 2010s looks a lot like the Bo era.
While scheme and using your talent effectively is important, it's also important to have the "hosses" on the OL to clear the way. Unfortunately, Michigan was held back by Drevno during the first three seasons under Harbaugh. The results haven't been too bad considering we haven't had an all american lineman under Harbaugh. The lack of talent does show up when we play Top 10 teams which is not surprising. We're getting better now with Warriner. Perhaps this year's OL recruiting class will re-establish Michigan as the O-line factory it used to be, but it's going to take time. When we get back to turning out all-american OL, the wins should follow.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:21 PM ^
I'll leave this here for those that neg.
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:54 PM ^
Little chicken and the egg going on here. So few are adequately equipped to evaluate and judge offensive line performance, that naturally players on great teams will receive more recognition. Personally Dalton Risner, Bunchy Stallings, Cole Van Lanen, Tyler Biadisz, and Max Scharping have all very strong cases, and it just feels like Mitch Hyatt and Ben Powers are on there for the fact they're the best offensive lineman on a great team. If Alex Hornibrook has a solid season, I think the Wisconsin offensive line gets more recognition. But they're still all quality selections.
January 3rd, 2019 at 4:57 PM ^
I totally agree that winning teams cast a glow on the players, then again, the players made the win happen. Top 10 teams get guys on all-america teams and also Heisman trophies.
January 3rd, 2019 at 4:03 PM ^
you are a good man.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:23 PM ^
Keep Warriner and I think we might be able to produce a couple of AA. Hopefully at least.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:25 PM ^
You noted how Saban didn't get his own OL that he recruited to become AA's until 2012, his fifth year. I think Harbaugh+Ed Wariner are on similar trajectory to develop some really good O Linemen we have in Bredenson, Ruiz and Runyon.
Once they leave, I have a good feeling about the likes of Jaylen Mayfield, Chuck Filiaga, and the massive OL class we brought in for 2019, from which we have the potential to build our own OL factory there.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:32 PM ^
Also, you have Ruiz. I think he will be an All-American before all is said and done and potentially next year. Bredeson has also been looked at very highly by the "critics" and is an AA candidate for next year - another year under Warinner won't hurt that. It will take a couple more years at least to develop a full line of AA linemen - I do think if Warinner sticks around that is possible. I think it will be difficult to keep him on staff, however.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:27 PM ^
Valid.... Our Oline improved, but wasn't good. As I recall the only success we had running between the tackles was against lesser teams and much of that in the 2nd half of the game.
Until we do have a dominating Oline, we're not going to get 'over the top'.
Onward, Go Blue
January 3rd, 2019 at 5:28 PM ^
Wasn’t “good”? People need dictionaries. Runyan was 1st team All-BIG. Brederson was 2nd team, and Ruiz and Onwenu both made 3rd team. They weren’t elite or dominating, but they played very well most of the year.
They only gave up 23 sacks—Oklahoma’s “number 1” line only gave up 4 less. Yes, they passed more, but they also have the most mobile (Heisman) QB. OSU also gave up 23 sacks, albeit in an extra game and with more PA.
Playcalling improvement with regard to predictability and variation will help, as will 9 months of next year’s line jelling. Let’s see if Mayfield or others helps shake up the tackle spots next year. I can see Mayfield. Based on the hype, etc., overtaking Steuber, with Runyan at RT and JM getting a crack at LT.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:27 PM ^
This is a good concept as to where to look for improvement, but I would like to see more analysis of other teams. We know Bama is good on the OLine, they are also excellent at every other position with the exception of QB (Tua excluded).
What is this ratio at other programs like Clemson, Oklahoma, OSU, USC when they dominated with Caroll, etc. Bama is a good marker, but may not indicate a trend or necessity with only them as a data point.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:28 PM ^
The key is to have a dominant Oline and dline. It's why Bama has been so dominant. And it's also why no CFB team would ever be able to beat an NFL team
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:31 PM ^
If Bo's lines were like Alabama then why were his win totals and success more like current Michigan than Alabama?
Michigan's offensive line during many eras, including today, is often too talented for the opposition. However, those few teams we face every season that can come close to matching or exceeding that talented is where the problem lies.
Bama is different. They are and have been the gold standard.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:48 PM ^
Bo's teams had the unique capability to blow a game with penalties, dropped passes ('84 Sugar Bowl), bad breaks ('85 Iowa, '90 Rose Bowl), and just not getting over a loss, especially to ND. It takes a lot of skill and luck to complete an undefeated season. Only Bo would have kicked off twice to Rocket Ismail and lose a game after getting burned on a first half kickoff.
Bo also believed in "dancing with who brung ya'". He never took time to put in new plays and wrinkles for bowl games. It was a mental block of his. With a month to prepare for a bowl game, you have to put in new wrinkles because the other team will be prepared.
I'm not minimizing skill players, scheme or other factors that create championship teams. But, all-american OL do appear to be a leading indicator of a team that has made it into the Top 10 as most of Bo's teams did.
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:00 PM ^
Terribly timed game-changing penalties, and lackluster bowl prep? Are we talking about Harbaugh or Bo?
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:08 PM ^
HarBo
January 3rd, 2019 at 5:06 PM ^
Sure does look like Harbaugh fell into the same trap. Early in the season, especially the ND game, they were scheming around what the OL should be able to handle. The playbook got thicker as the season went on, but Brian did note that they didn't seem to roll out much new stuff as November rolled along. One would think going into the 2019 season that they ought to trust the O-line to handle pass-pro and run blocking schemes better than 2018.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:34 PM ^
Instead of using the AA list, which isn't a bad indicator or potential CFP success, why not look at the number of guys in the NFL? All American lists are subjective whereas making an NFL roster is more definitive of a guy's talent.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:36 PM ^
I saw all those Bo era games too.
But Bo's AA OL's couldn't just clear the way against top teams like USC. They struggled, and the scheme did nothing to help. And we lost.
By all means, OL proficiency is vital. And ours should get much better.
But the answer is not to just to sit on our Manball hands until 2 or 3 OL players get better and then everything will be fine. It won't be.
The rest of the scheme has to help out.
Even Nick Saban is no longer basing his offense on grinding down opponents behind a dominant OL. He has adapted his scheme to compliment his OL.
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:07 PM ^
Yes, and as I've replayed the events of the last few weeks in my head one thing stands out: Harbaugh saying that we are close and just have to push it over the top. This tends to indicate, at least to me, that his thinking is like the OP's: eventually we have a truly great O line, etc. I think that this could well get us 11 wins, 12 wins, but championships? I hope I am wrong, but see/hear/feel nothing in his comments to indicate that we're going to kill people in the chess match, only in the boxing match. Likewise I see/hear nothing to indicate that we can win now, as I believe we could be doing. At least not getting pasted by the FLs and S. Carolinas of this world.
January 3rd, 2019 at 5:05 PM ^
"But Bo's AA OL's couldn't just clear the way against top teams like USC. They struggled, and the scheme did nothing to help. And we lost."
I just reviewed our rushing stats against USC in the 7 Rose Bowls we've played since Bo.
The only time we cracked 4 yds/carry was the game after the '88 season, which not coincidentally is the only one we've one. And that was largely due to Hoard going off.
And the 2008 game against USC: ooooof
Hart, Minor, and Manningham had 20 carries for 54 yards.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:36 PM ^
eh...all these comparisons to Bama is getting annoying. Bama has a head coach who will alter his offensive approach to win games, Michigan doesn't. While Sophomore Tua is lighting up college football, our Junior QB is busy handing the ball off and passing for around 200 yards per game.
Bama goes for the kill, Michigan goes for the body blows.
That's the difference.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:40 PM ^
George Foreman, prior to the grill, lost.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:43 PM ^
That's why we keep comparing to Alabama. They probably don't even need to adapt, yet they have anyway.
Seems to be a lesson in there for us.
What do we think is going to work for us that even Alabama doesn't think will work for them?
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:53 PM ^
Maybe my point wasn't clear enough. The OP seems to think Harbaugh is in line with what Saban did with Bama. We just need to wait five years until we get "our" OL for everything to work. I think that's a ridiculous assumption.
As I stated above, Saban goes for the kill no matter the offensive approve. Harbaugh would rather win his way with body blows. I don't see Harbaugh changing that approach, and I think that more than anything needs to be what Harbaugh mimics.
Bama is the gold standard and that's what we should try to be. Just taking the course of waiting for the staff to recruit their OL guys isn't going to change anything.
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:02 PM ^
I agree with that. You absolutely need a quality OL. But that's not the whole story. We've had that many times at Michigan and could not win big games against top teams.
I certainly don't think the answer is to just wait another year and do nothing because the OL will get a lot better and everything in Manball land will be fine.
That's just a faster zeppelin. It still won't keep up with Ohio State.
Along with the OL getting better, we need to make some significant, material changes on offense to beat Ohio State.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:55 PM ^
I understand the BPONE, but I think alot of these takes are overly simplistic and negative. How often did our QB run in 2017 compared to 2018? JH has shown time and again an ability to adapt to personnel. Yes, our running and passing attacks need to be better coordinated. The offense needs some work. At the same time, with everyone switching to spread, loading up with FBs and TEs can make it very difficult for other teams. Body blows can be damn effective.
We went 10-3. There are plenty of teams that would love to have our troubles.
January 3rd, 2019 at 4:04 PM ^
Body blows to lesser talented teams are effective. But in a fight where the other team is head hunting all game, the become less important. When you’re down by two scores, there is only so much your FB and TE’s can help you. We need to maximize our athletes on offense, not diminish them. There’s a reason why most power 5 teams don’t run the wishbone anymore!
January 3rd, 2019 at 4:52 PM ^
We don't run the wishbone either. The flip side of what you're saying is that going for head-shots all day is very risky if the other team is able to control the ball, limit your number of shots, and is generally guaranteed points a good percentage of the time by staying ahead of the chains and grinding out yards. Yes, it has to be balanced--no one can run all the time. But with a decent passing game complimenting the run, it can be as successful, and safer, than needing to break a big play on a regular basis.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:41 PM ^
You don't need a line of All Americans to be successful. If you do, that suggests there's something wrong.
Michigan's team was very talented this year. Not perfect, but very talented. People who are waiting for a much more talented Michigan to appear are going to be in for a long wait.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:45 PM ^
Hey, we just need Andrew Luck and his Stanford OL to show up, then everything will be fine.
Then the'll stay for a decade like they do in the NFL, right?
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:20 PM ^
It was the talent of a 10-3 team. I'd posit they beat everyone they should have and lost everyone they should have. UF is debatable, and we shouldn't have been run out of the building in either of the last two games, but I'd say all 3 teams were better.
Offense did not have a difference maker at RB or TE, and the offensive tackles were bad to very bad at pass pro (good run blockers). 4 vital positions in this offense. G-C-G was OK. Patterson was good, but what are we comparing to? Playoff teams? He was nowhere near Haskins, Tua, or Murray. UGA has much more talent than Michigan, and ND had a much easier schedule (Michigan goes 11-1 with that schedule, swapping ND for themselves). The WR's were legit, should have gotten the ball to them more.
The Defense was very talented, no doubt. The Offense, no. And the OL, which is what this OP is speaking to, was OK. They were bad a pass pro and protected by the staff. Good run blockers.
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:24 PM ^
At some point, good coaches beat teams that they don't have a strict talent advantage over at every position. Harbaugh did it very famously to USC. Coaches who can't do that are rightly lambasted - look at this blog's opinion of Franklin.
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:39 PM ^
I agree. Harbaugh needs to improve in order to get to the next level. But what we have now isn't rending-of-the-clothes level of despair. If the spot is 2 inches different in 2016 and Maryland completes a 2 1/2 yard pass to a wide open receiver in 2018, Michigan has two B1G titles in 4 years.
I think something like the OL moving from bad/average to good can make the difference (which, again, is what this OP is about). If it were to be great, it could really make the difference.
January 3rd, 2019 at 4:53 PM ^
Even Franklin beat OSU two years ago to win the division.
January 3rd, 2019 at 5:42 PM ^
And got hammered 49-10 by Jim Harbaugh's 2nd Michigan team, in a game that wasn't even that close.
PSU was the third best team in the B1G that year, behind OSU and Michigan. A good team, but fortunate in a way that Michigan was not.
Franklin is 1-4 vs. Michigan, OSU, and MSU. Is that what you'd like? Harbaugh is 0-4, 2-2, 4-1. Needs to be better, but he's better than Franklin.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:44 PM ^
Good thoughts, if you used All Conference as a metric, it would give you a larger sample size. I think the future is bright for the O-line going forward.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:49 PM ^
So I'm about to get negged, but Bo had skilled, predictable teams and, on average, went 10-3. So.....what we have right now.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:54 PM ^
Except for that beating Ohio State and winning the Big Ten part. So, no . . . not what we have right now.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:59 PM ^
Winning the Big 10 was easier in Bo's time, due to the shared championships. In any case, I'm not sure everyone should be so worried about what Bo did 30 years ago. It's even less relevant than what Harbaugh managed to do at Stanford or in the NFL.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:58 PM ^
I gave you a +1.
With a few exceptions (Baas, Long, Lewan, Schofield), top-end players (and high NFL draft picks) have been scarce at that position group since the days of Hutchinson, Backus, and Williams. That's close to twenty years.
January 3rd, 2019 at 3:14 PM ^
RR also had Omameh... odd that RR had more NFL linemen since Carr.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:51 PM ^
The o line was the reason we looked so bad against OSU and Florida. Patterson had no time in the pocket. Until we have NFL talent at every position we aren't going to compete with those teams.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:56 PM ^
You need NFL talent at every position to compete with a middling Florida? Shit, Missouri must be stacked with talent.
January 3rd, 2019 at 4:00 PM ^
Literally no team in college football has NFL talent at every position, so you're gonna be waiting a while
January 4th, 2019 at 12:31 AM ^
have you seem clemson, Alabama and OSU rosters? They have NFL talent everywhere. Michigan was close this year with the exception being nickel, OT and DT. The last two games of the season with Gary and chase at 80% and no NFL talent rotating in for them we got killed.
January 4th, 2019 at 9:56 AM ^
Well considering Alabama just set the school record for most picks last year at 12 and only 3 were on offense, that's still 10 starters not drafted and 8 on offense. Again, no college has NFL talent everywhere, they just have serviceable players that win games.
We had 10 players drafted in 2017 and still lost 3 games.
January 3rd, 2019 at 4:38 PM ^
A short and intermediate passing game would help this a lot.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:53 PM ^
Need The Big Uglies. Period
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:54 PM ^
I think that using AA as the standard, and only comparing a past era of football and Alabama (which runs out a 5* at every position), makes the analysis a bit useless (just being honest), but I think that your larger point is an excellent one. Teams with dominant OL tend to be really good.
Just about any 4* QB will be able to hit most of his throws, if he has enough time. Same goes for receivers. If you have fast enough and athletic enough WR (we do), with enough time, they will get open. But, without a strong OL, the QB and WR won't have "enough time." See, for example, the NY Giants offense this past season. OBJ may be one of the best WR in the league, and while old, Eli Manning can certainly make all of the throws. But with their craptastic OL, the offense was a broken mess over the first half of the season. When the OL gelled and improved, the offensive output over the second half was markedly better (team still sucked, but at least they scored a bunch more).
Same goes for the running game - any decent RB will be able to run well behind a dominant OL.
Over the past decade, that has obviously been a major problem for our team, and the results speak for themselves.
January 3rd, 2019 at 2:55 PM ^
Good thing they are running an offense that requires an elite offensive line. Makes sense.