Officiating - Texas v Alabama
I didn’t see much of the Bama - Texas game on Saturday, but - I’ve read a few comments and saw an video link - that indicated the officiating might have been “favorable” for Bama.
One particular play was - a safety (by Texas A&M) - that seemed to be ruled an incomplete pass.
Are you familiar with the play? Any thoughts on that specific play, or the officiating?
September 12th, 2022 at 10:22 AM ^
It was a correct call, actually. The QB never actually hit the ground, and instead landed on a Texas player, when he threw away the pass. Not a safety, unless you think it was intentional grounding, which it wasn’t.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:40 AM ^
I’m pretty sure there wasn’t an eligible receiver in the area. And the ball didn’t make it pass the line of scrimmage so it doesn’t matter that Young was outside the tackle box
September 12th, 2022 at 10:43 AM ^
Pass was deflected by the DL. Pretty sure once it's touched, it doesn't have to be in the area of a receiver.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:03 AM ^
It was a crazy play that looked all kinds of bad but was eventually called correctly. He was not down. His "pass" hit the Texas lineman in the helmet therefore no grounding.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:54 AM ^
That's not an NCAA rule. It's only about where the ball was thrown. Even if he had one of his own lineman catch the ball, since they would be ineligible it could be called for intentional grounding. It only matters if there was an eligible receiver in the area of the pass where it was thrown.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:22 AM ^
That's a pro rule, not for college. As an example in the rulebook:
VIII. Second and seven at the A-5 late in the second quarter. Quarterback A11
drops back to pass and is scrambling in his end zone as he tries to find an open
receiver. About to be tackled in the end zone, A11 throws the ball forward to
the ground in an area where there are no eligible receivers. The referee throws
a flag for intentional grounding. When the ball is dead the game clock shows
0:18. Team B accepts the penalty. RULING: The penalty results in a safety,
and Team A will free kick at the A-20. Team B has the option for a 10-second
runoff. If Team B accepts the runoff, the game clock is set at 0:08 and starts
on the referee’s signal. If Team B declines the runoff, the game clock remains
at 0:18 and starts when the kicked ball is legally touched in the field of play.
September 12th, 2022 at 1:53 PM ^
Right. Except the ball hit a Texas lineman 2 feet away from where it was thrown. So no one has any idea where the pass was headed. You can't assume it was headed to an eligible receiver, nor can you assume it was headed to a place with no eligible receivers. It's an incomplete pass, same as any other pass that's knocked down at the line of scrimmage or in the pocket.
September 12th, 2022 at 3:22 PM ^
When he's doing a somersault I can assume he was just chucking it up to avoid a safety.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:15 AM ^
As others have said, it hit a defender in the head but the ball also landed about 3 yards from a RB who ran a circle route out of the backfield so there was an eligible receiver in the general area.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:44 AM ^
so a team runs a flood route - three receivers on the left side of the field. the qb is about to get sacked and throws the ball as hard as he can toward the right sideline. it hits a defensive end and careens all the way across the field and falls at the feet of a receiver that's actually behind the quarterback. grounding?
(the point being, where it lands is immaterial)
September 12th, 2022 at 11:49 AM ^
That's correct. Where it was thrown. Not where it landed.
September 12th, 2022 at 12:50 PM ^
Look at you busting out the rule book. Must be sober Monday for you.
September 12th, 2022 at 1:09 PM ^
Honestly I'm not sure if a flag would be thrown in that scenario.
Regardless, as Young was going down he tried to throw the ball and it was anyone's guess where he was aiming. So unless the refs can read his mind, they're going to look at where the ball goes in relation to eligible receivers.
September 12th, 2022 at 12:08 PM ^
They actually called roughing the passer, and this would be the only time they didn't stop a play for QB safety and call him in the grasp. There were a ton of bad calls, both ways. They weren't discriminating. They missed a hold on the endzone play
September 12th, 2022 at 2:11 PM ^
I saw at least 3 plays that pass interference should have been called, including the one in the endzone you mentioned.
September 12th, 2022 at 1:41 PM ^
The pass hit a defender's helmet. So no way of knowing where it may have gone. Initially ruled wrong, refs fixed the call and got it right.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:44 AM ^
1. Wrong. His shin and then his elbow hit.
2. There were multiple DPIs not called on “All American” McKistry—including one on the first or second drive, in the end zone. A second one would’ve been a long gain/possible TD.
3. Bama’s only explosive play was a result of an outside the shoulder pad hold on the WR who still had jersey as the defender was attempting to tackle the RB who burst through for 81 yarder.
Bama had 15 penalties called and about 5 minimum that were just as or more obvious.
Also, the spotting was very favorable to Bama on the final drive. One was a should be 3 and 1 that was given a half to full yard and a first. Texas got screwed, and Bama will now go on a run until they meet a secondary that can easily handle their underperforming WR corp.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:16 AM ^
I missed most of the game, so I cannot comment on most of these, but did catch the last drive and completely agree with that spot being overly generous
September 12th, 2022 at 1:03 PM ^
Wrong. His shin and then his elbow hit
Does anyone have screenshots of these things. I watched it live and was just going through replay on slow-mo and it seems that only his ankle is down (rules say above ankle) and the ball is out of his hand before the elbow touches.
September 12th, 2022 at 1:45 PM ^
He wasn't down, #19 was in the area and the ball hit a defender's helmet. Not intentional grounding. They got the call right.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:47 AM ^
He looked down before he rolled on the defender, his leg was down just like Thorne's last year on the reversed fumble call (even though I think Thorne fumbled first). It wasn't intentional grounding because of the deflection but it sure looked like a safety.
This call, the missed facemask call that made Texas kick a field goal instead of having a 1st and goal from inside the 5, and the missed holding on Young's scramble were missed calls in key moments. Holdings on the backsides of plays are often missed even on key plays, but these three calls were right in front of the officials in the middle or on the front edge of the play.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:32 AM ^
The end zone call in the Texas-Alabama game seemed incredible on its face because grounding wasn't even considered as part of the play.
Instead the white hat had to maneuver around a more unlikely minefield of a call of roughing with targeting on the tackle of Bryce Young by the Texas defense. That misread of the play was beyond belief. Young was throwing a pass to no one as he was going to the ground but apparently not down in order to prevent a safety.
But there was no head or neck contact of any kind on the tackle. Young wasn't outside the pocket or tackle box, he wasn't throwing to any targeted receiver, his blind pass was ultimately batted away. So, the issue if you're reviewing for that call, would be to determine intent on whether all the elements of either a legal forward pass or grounding were met. That aspect of the play was never mentioned as a case for review by the referee, as far as the TV audience could deduce, because only the bizarre targeting call was apparently reviewed by rule.
The center official only steps away from the play when he threw his flag, suggested what he saw was both roughing and illegal helmet to head or neck contact, neither of which occurred based on the video.
The significance of the alleged penalty was that even if targeting were reversed, roughing as a separate but equal part of the call would stand and result in a 15-yard penalty and automatic first down. So, the referee saved his backfield partner by claiming that he he misheard or mistakenly attached roughing to an alleged review for targeting. This turned out to be a neat crew chief trick. Don't review for the actual call your crew blew by covering for the stupidly horrendous one that prompted reviewing the play.
Alabama got the benefit of the doubt, Texas didn't get a safety and the 2 points that would have changed the manner in which game was played down the stretch, potentially altering seasonal goals for both teams. That's how big just one non-call was in that game.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:37 AM ^
I am not sure that not calling the safety affected the game. Bama had to punt from the endzone. Texas got a good spot to start and turned it into 3 pts with modest effort.
If the safety was called, Bana free kicks from 20, and if Texas had the same ensuing drive, they are too far away to get the FG. I mean there is no way to know what would have happened, but we cant say the lack of a safety clearly affected the outcome.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:52 AM ^
lol. of course you change the way you coach and play a game depending on whether you're winning or tied or losing, whether it's 2 points or 3 or 5.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:44 AM ^
Not sure how roughing could be called - Young never 'threw' the ball until his hand was on the ground, his back on a defender, and his throwing hand waving wildly in the air as he tried to keep his balance and just fling the ball out hoping for the best possible call. If anything, it should have been called a fumble because he sure as hell didn't attempt anything resembling an attempted pass!
As for the other poster that said his shin and elbow were down - I never saw his elbow hit, only his hand. And how does a shin touch the ground without the knee also touching? Is he that good?
September 12th, 2022 at 12:45 PM ^
I don’t think refs can debate intent on a pass because they can’t read minds.
September 12th, 2022 at 12:15 PM ^
Agree that he was down. If you freeze it, his knee is on the turf as he throws-unreal they missed it. Also, the Bama D holds every play. Hopefully, it will be called more often going forward.
September 12th, 2022 at 1:40 PM ^
This call, the missed facemask call that made Texas kick a field goal instead of having a 1st and goal from inside the 5
Everyone on planet earth including Stevie Wonder saw that facemask, with the exception of all the refs in that game
September 12th, 2022 at 1:55 PM ^
Yeah, but looked down and was definitely down are two different things. He wasn't called down on the play, and there was nothing conclusive on replay that he showed he was down.
September 12th, 2022 at 2:01 PM ^
The refs were bad across the board, but Alabama absolutely got the better end of the bad officiating.
The facemask was bad. It wasn’t a quick grab that was missed, it turned the ball carriers head and it was the old days of 5/15 yard facemask, it would’ve been 15.
As you mentioned the hold that freed Bryce Young’s big scramble was as egregious as the facemask. It occurred on the edge where Young ran, and there’s no way they didn’t see it.
The pass interference no-calls might have been the worst part of all of them. Even the color analyst said something about doing it every play, because they won’t call of them. It was just bad, but I’m no longer afraid of Alabama. I think we match up really well with them. Georgia, not so much (at least right now), but I think we can play with and beat Alabama when it’s playoff time.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:16 AM ^
I would argue that if you are upside down while getting sacked and "throw" the ball into the face of your sacker, that is intentional grounding. I also believe there is no way that any other team would get that same call. So, to me that looked like ref incompetence or bias, but can't tell which.
That particular play gets worse, because one of the field refs threw a flag for roughing the passer and targeting, and there was not a hint of either. Somehow, both those penalties got erased by reviewer, but nonetheless you could see how the field crew could be given a sideways stare for just bailing out Alabama in any way possible.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:27 AM ^
yeah I can't believe no one else has said this. It seems totally clear to me that Young has no intent to actually hit a receiver with that throw. It was 100% "well, I'm sacked anyway I may as well throw this forward and hope a ref thinks it's not grounding for some weird reason."
I honestly think if the ball had *not* hit the defendes helmet, it would have clearly been so far short of the RB that they would have easily flagged it for grounding.
If hitting a defender is the bar that needs to be cleared to avoid grounding, qbs could avoid a lot of sacks that way.
September 12th, 2022 at 12:15 PM ^
You don't think he saw the WR standing at the 2 yard line and tried to dump it in that direction?
September 12th, 2022 at 12:25 PM ^
Even if he was trying that, its still grounding in my opinion because of his position, level of duress and the fact that he's still in the tackle box.
September 12th, 2022 at 12:57 PM ^
According to the rules posted by MgoHillbilly elsewhere, it is intent of the pass that determines if it is grounding.
September 12th, 2022 at 1:01 PM ^
If he's already down, it's a dead ball and the throw doesn't matter. If he's not down and there is a receiver in the area, then his position doesn't matter.
Level of duress doesn't matter if he gets the throw off and there is a receiver in the area.
Tackle box doesn't matter if there is a receiver in the area.
I think it's reasonable to conclude he was trying to get it to the receiver, but it deflected off the helmet.
Of course, I hate Alabama and was really rooting for Texas to take them down.
September 12th, 2022 at 1:01 PM ^
Yeah fair question. I think when he is half way down he is looking towards that RB. But you can also see here at the point of release his eyes are off to the right side of the play. If a no-look prayer that probably wouldn't have made it more than 5 feet from his hand before hitting the ground isn't grounding...
You can't see the ball, but this is just a few frames before he releases. There is no way he is looking at that receiver right now.
I don't know if there is a *rule* for this, but, I think there's a fair amount of precedent for just calling grounding when a qb is that close to the ground and the pass has *no* chance of being completed.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:28 AM ^
no. they thought he was down, but reviewed for targeting / roughing (whatever that gibberish explanation was) and used it as opportunity to say, whoops, he wasn't all the way down, let's call it incomplete.
and it was grounding, unless you can tell me which eligible receiver he was going for.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:56 AM ^
Ok, RollDamnTide!
September 12th, 2022 at 10:22 AM ^
I wonder if a B1G crew called that game…
September 12th, 2022 at 4:22 PM ^
SEC crew, iirc.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:23 AM ^
I saw it...but was watching on my phone at a kids party.
I listened to the CFB Nerds and they said it was the right call. Something about the wrist being down, but in college football that isn't considered down and he threw the ball and it hit someone in the helmet, so in their eyes it was the right call.
There apparently was some miscommunication between the officials regarding the targeting which caused a bit of confusion though.
September 12th, 2022 at 11:04 AM ^
Then those nerds are wrong. Any part of the body not the hands or feet is down, including wrists and ankles, and any part of the shin or forearm. It’s in the NCAA rule book: “only hands and feet” can contact the ground.
September 12th, 2022 at 8:17 PM ^
The wrist is part of the hand and the ankle is part of the foot. This whole discussion is why busting out a rule book, as if it, like everything, doesn't require interpretation is a huge waste of time. I've never seen anyone called down if it was just their wrist or ankle touching. Just picturing it makes it seem ludicrous.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:24 AM ^
That play was questionable, but Alabama had 100 other penalties during the game. However, the officials did miss an obvious face mask on the last Texas FG drive. It would have been half the distance to the goal with a fresh set of downs.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:26 AM ^
There was also a pretty clear hold on Bryce Young's scramble (right side of the line). I know "there's holding on every play, yada yada yada." This one was almost solely responsible for that play's success. That and Bryce Young escaping the first sack attempt.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:34 AM ^
The only good thing about BAMA playing TEXAS is someone has to lose.
Alright, alright, alright.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:49 AM ^
That was an incredible catch without someone grabbing your face mask through the catch process.
September 12th, 2022 at 10:52 AM ^
I think they said this was the most penalties that have ever been called on Alabama under Nick Saban. The play in question I thought they got it right outside of announcing a roughing the passer penalty which supposedly never was.
Overall, I find this to be the normal sour grapes of a losing team. Alabama had a ton of calls on them and I am sure they missed penalties both ways. (Edit: I watched the game but since I was rooting for a sink hole I did not care enough to track missed calls)
September 12th, 2022 at 11:07 AM ^
The refs were probably just out of energy from calling Alabama for 258 other penalties. So sloppy. The story of the game was not Texas playing well and staying with mighty Alabama. The story was: Alabama looked poorly coached, and short on talent. It looked like two, evenly matched, unranked teams for much of that game.