NFL draft Wonderlic scores
Possibly the most worthless test in the history of tests. Not one franchise cares.
Right? It seems like the only purpose of the test is for fans to make fun of the guys that do poorly on it. Does it have any correlation to NFL success? Seems like somebody must have crunched those numbers by now.
I googled "lowest wonderlic scores" (the lowest is 4 BTW), and there are several players on the list who were stars in college and/or the NFL.
Didn’t Julian Peterson from Moo U. Get a 6?
Boomer Esiason just said Ryan Fitzpatrick scored twice as high as Patrick Mahommes. I'll take Mahommes.
As regards correlation - take the 3rd paragraph (sourced from the link) for what it's worth (it's ONLY talking about quarterbacks).
It does make intuitive sense to me - you don't want your QB to be too dumb. But past a certain point, it doesn't matter: there's no correlation between being smart and being good.
A well-researched article on Medium looked at quarterbacks only and determined there was a minor benefit at this position: "There seems to be a sort of smartness threshold, where the best NFL quarterbacks need to be at least this smart to see success. But once a QB passes that threshold (around a score of 25), their additional smartness has little to no effect on success on the field."
All the same, finishing last is probably not great news.
But Kyler Murray finished last for QBs, and he is projected by a lot of people to be the #1 pick, so maybe it really doesn't matter.
Why do they have players take it then?
Exactly, if bosa finished last, I would have been the first, or second, to re-post the cardale jones don't want to play school tweet.
hate to correct you EGJ, but the proper spelling in ohio is 'skool'.
And rumor has it Kyler struggled terribly with the whiteboard portion of his interviews when he was asked to break down a defense pre and post snap. Anybody who says this test is worthless, especially when it comes to QBs, is kidding themselves. QBs have to have a certain level of intelligence to process all the information coming at them in a very short period of time. They just do.
Look I gave the Wonderlic to every prospective employee for almost 10 years. I can tell you with a great deal of confidence that hiring people with a score under 20 meant we would have challenges with them in retention and anything involved in learning new concepts. They simply could not do it.
A nine means Gary is as dumb as a bag of hammers. Sorry but I've taken the test and proxy administered the test for years. The Wonderlic gets progressively harder as the questions progress but the first 10-15 or so are absolute gimmies. For example they'll show a picture of a large circle and a small square and ask which one has a larger area. Or they'll list presidents with one non-historical president and ask how many US presidents are listed. By the end of the test it's vastly different and much harder but to get a nine means you are seriously, seriously stupid.
But playing D Line it doesnt matter because he's not being asked to process much intellectually (unlike a QB) to make plays.
Question: it has been suggested that Gary is dyslexic. How many of your takers were dyslexic, and did it make any difference? The sample test linked here required the digestion of complex written information in a small time window. That’s the sort of thing that would be extremely difficult for someone with dyslexia to break down and absorb, regardless of the strength of their intellect.
Why do they even take this test?
I can't count how many times I've had people who are poor academically say they are dyslexic. My common question is 'who listed and labeled you as such' and the answer inevitably is that no formal testing was done. When I watched the Amazon video of him with his tutor, I couldn't imagine him competing in any of my 2nd-4th year classes. To throw dyslexia out there as the reason for his score without any confirmation is stupid.
So Gary being a 2-time All-Big Ten Academic recipient would be a bit of information to counteract the "he's as dumb as a bag of hammers" argument you're basing on a 9 on a 50-question test administered at the same place where a guy is asked to bench 225 pounds, run around some cones, and diagram plays on whiteboards.
It may shock people that perhaps a first-round pick just doesn't give that big of a shit about a test and didn't put much work into it.
Also, look at some of the worst Wonderlic scores in history and you'll find quite a few decent players in the bunch, certainly as evenly as one would expect based on a single data point like an exam. The presumption that intelligence is measured objectively this way seems foolish to me. As for "QBs have to have a certain level of intelligence" argument, Ryan Fitzpatrick scored a near-perfect score and has largely been a backup his entire NFL career; guys like Blaine Gabbert and Greg McElroy did great as well and are out of the league; by comparison, there are a ton of guys in the teens (Terry Bradshaw, Steve McNair, Jim Kelly, Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb) who turned out to be way better QBs.
Ryan Fitzpatrick is highly underrated. A 6'2" Harvard guy who was a seventh round pick and managed to put up some crazy numbers with different teams when he was often not the first choice. I'd say he's a poster-boy for good Wonderlic scores. If Buffalo would have stuck with him and drafted decent wide-receivers and o-linemen they might not have sucked for the last 10 years. He also has a sweet beard.
April 22nd, 2019 at 10:21 PM ^
His beard is great. His under-7.0 ypa and barely 1:1 TD to INT ratio, though, are less inspiring. His "crazy" numbers are basically one year on the Jets.
Fitzpatrick has stuck around for any number of reasons, some of which are probably due to him being able to pick up a playbook reasonably well but a couple more that have little to do with his mind. And if we're talking about 6' 2" guys who hung around the league, Charlie Batch played for 14 years, had similar TD to INT ratios and other passing metrics, and scored 14 on the test.
My point is that people trying to divine much from a multiple choice test might be trying to hard to find causation where correlation barely exists.
April 22nd, 2019 at 10:41 PM ^
Fitzpatrick has one of the weakest arms of any starting NFL QB. The fact that he’s been able to stick around this long is definitely a testament to his intelligence.
I never said it didndi help him, but Greg McElroy scored a 48, has a noodle arm, and was out of the league in 3 years. Fitzpatrick being around certainly has something to do with his brains, but he also has really good footwork and body mechanics, which hasn't hurt.
My larger point is that trying to equate much intrinsic value of a player to a MC test is silly and leads to a ton of false assumptions.
Except I never said he had to have a high score to do well-in fact I said the exact opposite in my closing paragraph. That as D Linemen he would not be asked to process much information quickly and as such the score wouldn't impact his ability to make plays.
You don't have to study or prepare for this test to score 18+...you just have to possess a reasonable amount of intelligence. I guarentee you would probably score a 25 or higher right now, with zero prep and several years removed from school.
Look I get that in today's polite society we can never say someone is fat, or lazy or especially not stupid out loud without facing the wrath of those offended by those terms. But you and I both know the world is full people who aren't physically fit, driven or intelligent.
Sorry but we're really not created equal in all areas.
hey now, maybe i like being fat, lazy and stupid.
don't knock until you've tried it.
Well, maybe, but fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life.
Says you. Been working out pretty well for me.
Thank you, Dean Wormer.
April 22nd, 2019 at 10:31 PM ^
I know you said that, but as I pointed out lots of successful QBs score poorly on the test and were still successful, while lots of guys who scored higher did not have particularly fruitful NFL careers.
Nobody said that Gary is some untapped genius; I'm taking issue with you referring to him as dumb as a bag of hammers but that not mattering because he doesn't need to use his intellect as a defensive lineman, insinuating that guys on the defensive line are just angry balls of muscle who Hulk-smash their way to the QB for 3 downs. It's funny how you're dancing around what I can only assume is at the tips of your fingers that you want to say, but whatever. That's your choice.
People can be intelligent in ways not captured on a MC test administered at, again, a place where they are also expected to jump really high and run really fast. I have no idea if Gary tried on this test; you keep conflating the level of attention people you were hiring (who had a clear incentive to do well on it) with Gary, a guy who performed incredibly well in drills that mattered to the people looking to give him millions of dollars and less well on a written test that has dubious value to GMs and largely seems irrelevant to anyone making decisions.
This isn't some PC culture war despite what you think; it's just a lazy attack on a guy who seems to have disappointed people around here because he was only really good at football but didn't beat OSU. Which is their right, but this attempt to be like "I knew before everyone he'd be a bad pro because of X" is just excessive.
April 22nd, 2019 at 11:01 PM ^
When he’s asked to do the basic of simply winning the edge against a quick and ready tackle, it rarely works. Tackles seemed to learn this by Gary’s final year. They were able to extend outside and beat him to spots, and he appeared surprised and left without the counter move to compensate. The same seemed to happen when he looped in for a stunt and the pathway wasn’t as clear or obvious as he envisioned.
This is part of an analysis of Gary by Matt Patricia of the Detroit Lions. So it might imply there is some need of smarts.
No it's not. It's the analysis of a guy on MLive doing draft analysis. At least find the source instead of taking a screenshot from somewhere else.
Even the article notes it may just be coaching in a different scheme, not "smarts". But don't let that bit of context get in the way of your analysis.
So it might imply there is some need of smarts.
It also definitely implies Mr Gary does not possess them which would make sense given his Wonderlic score.
But perhaps his dyslexia prevents him from accurately making quick decisions here as well.
Interesting, so my question would be why he had no counter-move or way to deal with these situations. Wasn't Mattison supposed to teach him how to position himself and use his hands to get past tackles?
Players are supposed to be taught this stuff then go through many repetitions in practice to hone it to an instinctual level, he shouldn't have to think about it that much.
To me that analysis comes down to his relationship with his position coach. Either Mattison didn't teach it, or Gary didn't listen.
You're about a half step away from breaking out the calipers, my man.
Just go for it, quote me some facts on skull shape.
“Son, fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life. What do you have to say for yourself?" --Dean Wormser, Faber College
I know you're trying to relay information, but there's no need to refer to Michigan athletes in this way.
Ok fair point.
FWIW I seriously doubt that any of the people discounting the accuracy of the test itself have any familiarity with it at all. I'll bet I gave over 1,000 of the tests over a 10 year period which is why I believe they are deadly accurate in estimating intelligence.
Now, does intelligence really matter to the success of a D Linemen? Not really which is why I don't think it'll matter to his career any.
I'll trust that you're right about how accurate it is.
BUT isn't an inherent assumption that everyone taking it puts equal effort into it? Without knowing any additional context, "dumb as a bag of hammers" looks exactly like "I know not to take this seriously. "
A score THAT low is...pretty bad optics though.
So you are saying he took this test off.
You are discounting (or outright ignoring) the possibility that he just didn’t care about it in the least and didn’t take it at all seriously.
Well perhaps he didn't take it seriously as you suggest. Perhaps he decided to not answer questions and didn't try to do well which made his score so low.
But if so I'll stand pat on my belief that the man isn't very intelligent because anybody who blows off a test that his future boss asked him to take isn't terribly smart IMO.
It’s also very possible that his well known learning disability wasn’t given a proper time accommodation.
Yes that is possible. But if they didn't give it to him they undoubtedly didn't give a time extension to any other player either. 10% of America is estimated to have some form of dyslexia and there were 335 players at this year's combine meaning there were around 35 others in the same situation as Gary.
But he scored dead last. Shouldn't we see 34 or so equally poor scores if dyslexia and the lack of time allotment was the cause?
April 22nd, 2019 at 10:00 PM ^
You’re assuming that the 10% you’re referring to in the general population is equally represented in potential future NFL players taking the instrument. I would bet (comfortably) that isn’t the case.
I can surely seen in a situation like this a playing feeling a combination of (1) didn’t care about it because he was going to get paid regardless, and isn’t going to impact his draft postion, coupled with (2) lack of testing accommodation (which if that was the case, then I can surely see an added element of “F this even more because it’s not fair, anyway”).
April 23rd, 2019 at 10:00 AM ^
Maybe not, or maybe he was. Here’s what we know, we saw an extremely gifted athlete get outplayed by his significantly less athletic teammate on the opposite side of the line.
Why would he not take this seriously when he spent countless hours preparing physically to improve his draft status? Wouldn't make sense to tank the test and place doubt in the minds of the NFL teams. There are many good DEs this year and just a little doubt by a team could drop him into the 2nd round, costing him big $$$.
That is certainly possible. If true, and I was a GM, that would cause me even more concern than the low score.
his glasses definitely had me fooled
Is there ANY chance they were non-prescription lenses?
You gave prospective employees the wonderlic, interesting
Yup-every one of them. And we immediately eliminated anybody with a score under 20 because we learned (the hard way) that they would be difficult to train and would have a hard time processing directions.
FWIW my pool of applicants were mostly kids fresh out of school and the lowest score I ever saw was a 12. Most people were 20-30 with only a small number in the 15-20 range.
In 10 years of testing I never saw anybody get a 9
April 22nd, 2019 at 10:47 PM ^
oof. I have no reason to not believe this man. anyone saying he didn't try is kidding themselves. it takes less than an hour right? you know this score is going to be released. nobody would just blow it off. maybe if he got a 0 you could try that excuse.
I hear 9 is a high score for people from jersey. Can you confirm?
Rashan will make more money and be more successful than 99.999% of people who have taken a wonderlic test.
Test like wonderlic/IQ only show extreme unintelligence (ie. learning difficulties, probably the issue for Rashan) and basic intelligence void of second order effects.
Those who score well on Wonderlic/IQ test become good worker bees. They tend to preform no better (and often worse) than the general population in complex environments.
If you want to find out if someone is good at a task, make them do that task. The Wonderlic test will have as much correlation to NFL success as unicycle riding.
But at least unicycle riding would give you a sense of their balance. And be more entertaining.
Although he will make more money than most, I highly doubt he will be more successful than 99.999% of Wonderlic takers. Unless, of course, your definition of success focuses solely on money.