Michigan's Full Letter Responding to Big Ten
Wetzel released the full version of Michigan's letter to the Big Ten on Twitter. It has been reposted elsewhere and I found it easiest to read via https://footballscoop.com/news/here-is-michigans-10-page-letter-to-the-big-ten. The main points have been summarized in articles, but figured all of the Mgolawyers (and probably everyone else) on here would want to see the full arguments.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
Troll. Go away.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
I've seen you post this asinine idea that Michigan should attempt to pretend that they didn't use any information from the guy whom they employed to ascertain said information. This would be a very stupid thing to lie about, especially since using stolen sign info from your sign stealing employee is not at all against the rules. I suspect you know this and are simply lying.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:16 AM ^
Providing opposition sign information to the coaching staff was literally Stalions' entire job. Of course they used what he brought them since this is why they hired him in the first place. That's not what is at issue. It's the manner in which the sign information was obtained, not that it was used.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:39 AM ^
can someone ban this troll already?
November 9th, 2023 at 12:11 PM ^
I tried. He's currently being given enough rope to hang himself while eating copious amounts of downvotes.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:55 AM ^
10 pages of FAFO.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
SUGGESTED PENALTY COMPROMISE : Michigan will pay $1M into fund to help small schools buy radio helmet equipment, aligning with the new NCAA rule to allow the technology.
Call it the Stallion Fund.
Warde, pay the man.
November 9th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
What's ironic is that Michigan does have a vast network that you shouldn't fuck with if you know what's good for you.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:42 AM ^
he fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is "never get into a land war in Asia." But only slightly less well know is this: Never go in against the University of Michigan when lawyering is involved.
Seriously though, of all the B1G schools to get into a legal spat, you picked the 800 lb gorilla...er...koala....to fuck with. what a numpty
November 9th, 2023 at 10:56 AM ^
Michigan: “Fuck your shit and the commish you claim”
- “Tupac”
— Michael Scott
November 9th, 2023 at 11:02 AM ^
Indeed Exhibit 2, which Michigan received from a former coach at Purdue...
Given the whole arc of the Stapleton thing, I'm going to laugh really, really hard if this Ron English.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:02 AM ^
OMG, ten pages?! This is way too lengthy. I couldn’t possibly be expected to read all of this and then respond swiftly. That’d be unfair!
November 9th, 2023 at 11:06 AM ^
Take it you are not billing your time by the hour then? haha
November 9th, 2023 at 11:13 AM ^
You think Tony just texted back TL;DR?
November 9th, 2023 at 11:02 AM ^
First of all... Masterful!! B1G commish and b1G attorney butts are probably sore this morning (doesn't mean they won't take inappropriate next steps anyway.)
Though there is one particular point, I think most of us would beg to disagree with:
JH is absolutely an 'institution' in my book!! Sign the new contract tomorrow!!
Letter also available here. Not familiar with the site in the OP but Wetzel is well known and has been one of the national media who is most fairly reporting the facts and reasonable commentary.
https://twitter.com/DanWetzel/status/1722630548160762111
November 9th, 2023 at 11:15 AM ^
Yeah, that one's unlikely to work. B1G Sportsmanship Policy, Section 10.1.1:
"An institution is responsible for, and therefore, may be held accountable for, the actions of its employees, coaches, student-athletes, band, spirit squads, mascot(s), general student body, and any other individual or group of individuals over whom or which it maintains some level of authority. In addition, any member of the above groups may be held individually accountable if found to have committed an offensive action as contemplated by this policy."
November 9th, 2023 at 11:18 AM ^
I think I'll go with what one of the top law firms in the world thinks about this rather than some rando troll on the internet.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:19 AM ^
The part you highlighted obliterates your argument. It specifies a separate category of punishment for individuals and institutions. You'd actually have more of an argument if the bolded section didn't exist. If you're going to troll, try to come off as inteliigent.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:28 AM ^
Folks.... you guys are missing my point / joke. Not trolling at all. UM94 grad!!
My emphasis is that JH is a (coaching) 'institution' as in Bo, Bear, Saban, Holtz, etc.!! Not the 'legal' definition of the word as presented in the letter. Fully agree there's no possible legal interpretation that way.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/institution#.
Definition 6.
I know we're all on high alert here, but I didn't think my cheekiness would be lost given the surrounding commentary / emphasis...
November 9th, 2023 at 11:30 AM ^
Oh I know. Shuttlecock is just a liar and I'm pointing that out
November 9th, 2023 at 11:36 AM ^
Got it. Was a little confused by the flow of the replies and the troll references - notably 'highlighting' (which I did) vs Bolding (which Shuttle did). Thought you guys missed my point - but I got it now.
While I've been MGoLurking for a decade, I don't follow the specific commenters / personalities closely enough to get the subtext every time. ;-)
Except for Shuttle, Negs reversed to +'s.
Nothing to see here. Moving along now!!
November 9th, 2023 at 12:27 PM ^
That guy's arguments are so unpersuasive. You'd think he would've quit by now.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:33 AM ^
The letter literally addresses how - what you just put in "bold lettering" - that doesn't apply to Jim Harbaugh. Actually, several times.
Either you're blatantly disregarding that fact - to bolster your narrative, or you lack the ability of reading comprehension and rational deductive reasoning.
Pick one, because those are the only two options here. Bottom line is that you've just proven that ANYTHING you say should be ignored.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:36 AM ^
You obviously didn't read Warde's letter, or you reading comprehension is lacking. The entire argument says this:
"...any member of the above groups may be held individually accountable if found to have committed an offensive action as contemplated by this policy."
And then the letter goes on to state that the Big Ten has provided ZERO proof that Jim Harbaugh committed an offensive action himself. The only person in question is Stalions. The point being made is that the policy does not allow for punishing Jim Harbaugh for Connor Stalions' actions.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:45 AM ^
Check your reading comprehension, troll. The response *quite literally* explained this by saying there is absolutely no evidence that Harbaugh himself committed "an offensive action". You have to have evidence to do that. There is none. There is plenty that show Stallions might have, but that Stallions did it does not automatically mean Harbaugh did it. And don't start on with "the HC is ultimately responsible", because that's a separate thing the NCAA has in its own rulebook. That is not within the purview of the Big Ten to decide on its own.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:49 AM ^
Right, the impetus here is that Harbaugh did NOT commit any offensive action.
Conor Stalions committed the offensive action. He is held accountable (lost his job).
Michigan, is the institution. They are responsible for the actions of their employees.
Jim is not legally considered an institution and has claimed he had no knowledge of Stalions actions (which is corroborated by Stalions himself). Under these definitions, the BIG 10 is not legally allowed to punish Harbaugh for a violation he himself did not commit.
November 9th, 2023 at 12:14 PM ^
Are you attempting to be this consistently wrong, or you just this naturally talented at it?
November 9th, 2023 at 12:15 PM ^
What did Harbaugh personally do?
November 9th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
Wow. I thought yesterday that surely the four pieces of evidence cited were just the four most absurd pieces of evidence cited. No, pages 6 & 7 say that is truly the only evidence the Big Ten has supplied.
This then is all the Big Ten has supplied as evidence
- records of Stalions’ tickets purchased and transfers,
- one unsolicited tip by an unidentified person claiming to have witnessed a person in Stalions' seat filming the sideline,
- a link to a public article that includes a “now-deleted” video of Stalions on the sideline of a Michigan game,
- a short video titled “UMass vs. PSU video” that “does not clearly show anything at all,” the letter says.
This is almost stunningly incompetent by Pettiti
November 9th, 2023 at 11:10 AM ^
Holy shit. I thought the same thing as you. That is insane. These guys know less about Signgate than the median MGoBlog poster.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:51 AM ^
a link to a public article that includes a “now-deleted” video of Stalions on the sideline of a Michigan game
This one is laughable. How would be evidence of any wrongdoing?
November 9th, 2023 at 2:36 PM ^
Lol remember when Chris Balas came out and said that Michigan had been met with “overwhelming evidence” during their meeting last Friday? HAHAHAHAHAHA
November 9th, 2023 at 3:47 PM ^
Thats definitely a major L for Balas that we should keep in mind. He was absolutely dooming about whatever his source says and its abundantly clear now that his source is wrong. IIRC he was also dooming about a staffer being involved which is also clearly not true or it wouldve been leaked by now
November 9th, 2023 at 11:12 AM ^
Leaking a story to Larry Lage and then citing his article about that story in your response is just a goddamn masterstroke.
November 9th, 2023 at 12:15 PM ^
We call that The Cheney.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:20 AM ^
Of course, the docuhebag to whom the letter addressed is named Chad.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:21 AM ^
I thoroughly enjoyed reading detailed references to rules I haven’t seen. However, late in the document I found a split infinitive. Therefore, I have no choice but to disqualify the entire document, despite the fact that it lays out a pretty compelling case. #NCAALogic #QED
November 9th, 2023 at 11:31 AM ^
The interesting part of this is that Michigan lays out the loophole in the NCAA rules theory as well, which I saw as popular in the first few days of the story among Michigan defenders, but kind of got drowned out. I do not know if that would hold up to strict scrutiny, but I do think it's interesting that they're putting a warning shot out for the NCAA that they will need to be able to prove that the letter of the (by)law was violated.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:52 AM ^
I'm stating the obvious here, but it was so strategic on their part I wan to do it anyway. This is telling the Big Ten they are way outside their lane and that the "Big Boys" of the NCAA get to go first.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:43 AM ^
I’m a higher ed lawyer with 40 years of experience in trial and appellate work. Just read the letter in its entirety. Of course it seems obvious that it was written entirely by lawyers, despite being signed by WM (it even includes case citations and other legal references). And while I support the University and thus have inherent biases, I firmly believe that to any dispassionate reader the letter would be viewed as incredibly thorough, carefully reasoned, and highly persuasive. And I believe these arguments would be highly persuasive to any court hearing the matter if the Commissioner proceeds to act at this juncture. I have to read and evaluate these sorts of things all the time and give professional advice, despite my biases in favor of my clients. That is one of the two hats we lawyers wear - advocate, but also evaluator. Well done WM and legal team!
November 9th, 2023 at 12:33 PM ^
Thanks for pointing out Warde Manuel. Even though he's been invisible to the public lately, he must be working behind the scenes, coordinating all this with our attorneys. There's no way that Santa Ono is overseeing this part of the process.
November 9th, 2023 at 4:04 PM ^
Ono might not have signed the letter but I can nearly guarantee he read it before it went out. I think it would be irresponsible to let something of this magnitude get out of his sight. I think we saw how he got involved with keeping Harbaugh from the NFL earlier this year, and he should be familiar with how former President Schlissel mis-handled Dave Brandon and the AD back in 2014.
Plus, Santa sees you when you're sleeping, and knows when you're awake ;)
November 9th, 2023 at 11:49 AM ^
Assuming everything in this letter is true regarding the conference relying predominantly on rumor and word of mouth, they will get obliterated in a court of law. It'll be a shame for the other members of the conference when Michigan gets allocated 100% of the TV and post-season revenue for this year and the foreseeable future from the inevitable defamation,etc. lawsuit.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:52 AM ^
I love the statement in the article that Warde Manuel drafted the letter. There is no way in hell that the letter wasn’t drafted by a lawyer, and a very good one at that.
November 9th, 2023 at 11:58 AM ^
Get fucking Shrekt Big Ten. Amazingly thorough evisceration.
November 9th, 2023 at 12:00 PM ^
From page 9 & 10:
What we do know is that Michigan won its closest game this season by 24 points, and its average margin of victory is 34 points. Since Stalions was suspended, Michigan's average margin of victory has been 38 points, including one 49-point victory and another 28-point victory without Stalions on the sideline.
Gotta love getting a shot in at MSU while you are ripping the B1G commissioner a new one.
November 9th, 2023 at 12:11 PM ^
After reading the Michigan letter, it is clear that Petitti did not even know that sign stealing/deciphering is a totally normal thing that every program does.
He literally saw the OSU fan-posted video of Stalions communicating with MInter and concluded that Michigan has STOLEN SIGNS!!! BIGGEST SCANDAL EVER!!!!
The guy is just a total moron. He may be great at negotiating media rights deals, but he is (1) a terrible lawyer and (2) completely clueless about how to run a conference.
It is really shocking to see the the Michigan letter has to walk him though with baby steps basic stuff about how sign stealing is normal, programs trade their stolen sign intelligence, etc.
November 9th, 2023 at 1:38 PM ^
This letter drips with professionalism and shows a complete understanding of the rules and policies of which they are governed under; and also highlights that the conference is lacking in those areas. Loved every word of it.
November 9th, 2023 at 1:40 PM ^
..also, reading between the lines, I think Warde just told the BigTen Commish: "Go get your fucking shine box!".
November 9th, 2023 at 1:54 PM ^
Ok after reading that. It's complete insane what the conference is trying to do. Part of their evidence is saying that they have seen footage, which they didn't supply, that shows Stalions talking to coaches and looking at the other team?
What the fuck kind of evidence is that? You can't talk to a coach or look directly in front of you?
This letter really makes the B1G look like a bunch of idiots.