Hypothetical question on JT Turner
the bandit or spur position if he has added good weight.
The bandit has more deep responsibilities so I would think they will try him there.
Couldn't agree more I was saying last year that they should move him to safety. That's what he played in high school, and it's a pretty huge need for us -- maybe not quite as bad as CB.
Kovacs is a sure-fire tacking machine, but he's highly suspect in coverage. Probably a good idea to have JT take his spot, as much as I hate to see the end of that Cinderella story. Turner could be a great spur, as well, but it seems like we're getting stacked at that position.
What I don't like is the idea of having players cut weight when they're at their natural size. Doesn't sound like JT's bulk comes from eating too much or working out excessively. Anyway, a weak and starving CB is a bad CB, unless the other team is throwing T-bones.
Unless he's adding muscle like Brandon Graham (Who I saw at a golf course this summer, not rocketing the ball as you would expect, but dribbling it off the tee. Why? Becuase he was so big he couldn't effectively swing the golf club) I don't see why it would be a huge issue. It might go back to his conditioning problem, but they're are bigger guys than him playing corner (Google Joe Haden while he was at Florida, he was jacked). I thought he looked better at a safety role coming out, but if this is his natural position, he'll either get it together here or won't at all.
Surely there is a point where too much muscle mass will hinder a player's ability to cover a receiver.
This is especially true when a player bulks up in the upper body---it raises his center of gravity, making it harder to change directions. If you don't believe me, then ask yourself why RR likes to recruit 5'8" slot ninjas.
JT Turner was a shut-down corner at recruiting camps, often praised for his agility and level of conditioning. My question is, is it possible for him to regain these skills by cutting weight at the expense of upper body strength? Would this be a healthy thing to do, and has anyone ever done it before?
Do you really think there is a chance that Barwis screwed up and just added 20lbs to Justin Turner and that cost us a 5 star CB when we desperately need one? You don't think they set out a plan for him where agility and quickness is the emphasis and they are trying to make him the strongest, quickest player he can be.
He either doesn't want it that bad or he grew. To think Barwis just bulked him up too big to play CB is just stupid.
...and I don't think Barwis (hallowed be his name) bulked him up too much to play CB.
Based on all reports I've heard, he came in last summer big---really big, and out of shape.
Thanks for implying that I'm stupid.
Sorry, your above posts made it seem that you thought he had gotten too muscular to play CB. I didn't see where you thought it was because he got fat and lazy.
If that's the case then yeah he needs to slim down to be able to get his quickness back end of story, because if he's not in shape he's not playing any position. An unmotivated 225lb Turner is not playing football anywhere on the field. A motivated Turner will get on the field somewhere regardless of size.....due to his talent
Don't discount injuries or other problems that may be holding him back...and he's still a freshmen the "insiders" aren't always right in these situations.
I think I heard about Molk losing his job last offseason 10 different times because he wasn't strong enough or athletic enough now we think he's 1 of the 3 most important gys onthe team.
I've read elementary physics books as well believe it or not, and yeah there's a point, when he begins to add mass like Brandon Graham, which he clearly hasn't been doing. He was at the spring game and didn't look like Ronnie Coleman, so it's not a real issue for him. His level of conditioning was criticized as he came into fall camp last year. He's been regarded as a playmaker in camp, so i don't really see where this comes from. Morgan Trent was pretty stick-like and that certainly didn't help him cover anything.
indicated that he was a "playmaker." I didn't really hear anything that indicated he was having much of a physical problem other than a difficulty changing direction quickly, which obviously would be a problem for a corner. Speed doesn't seem to be an issue. Most of his problems sounded like mental consistency issues. As you mentioned, our depth at the position leads me to believe he will stay at corner for at least this year. Coach Rodriguez (and Troy Woolfolk) have said that corner is an easier position to learn than safety.
As far as the coaches asking him to skinny-up, I doubt they've specifically asked him to lose muscle mass. Instead, I find it more likely they're asking him to work on his agility. That may sound contradictory, but asking a guy to lose muscle doesn't seem like it would be a good idea, especially if the player may be destined to play safety in coming years.
I bet we hear some good stuff about JT from fall camp.
I think in an ideal world JT would be playing safety, but b/c of depth issues he was practicing at corner this spring. It seems like he would be a natural fit at free safety and Cam Gordon could move to the spur or bandit.
I don't think that you want JT to try and lose muscle mass. Remember most of the major recruiting sites had JT as a safety. It was only after a great week of practice at the US Army game did people start to consider him a corner prospect as well.
I am not averse to playing a gigantic musclebound dump truck at cornerback. Perhaps his five yard bump and run window will be so powerful that the opposing receiver is implanted into the subterranean detritus, never to catch another pass. It would make Michigan Stadium kind of creepy with all those fresh dead bodies every week, but a win is a win.
I specifically remember Donovan Warren talking about how long JT's wingspan is and saying he could jam receivers playing "3 yards off them."
but I am not convinced that said truck would not be able to maintain a stable GPA during its time at the University. We must remember that our players are not professionals, but student athletes and that education is the number one priority for these young men. In conclusion, while your idea may seem solid in theory, I don't think it caters to what we want Michigan to be- not just as a football team, but an entire nation.
Go blue!
"Mike Martin (+3) jams receiver at line. Receiver was somehow able to walk off under his own power."
Not the jamming the receiver part, that I get. The walking off under his own power, that takes this to the realm of the impossible.
I highly doubt he is putting any fat on his body.
Ideally corner would be the best for the team (for obvious reasons) but with Cam Gordon moving to safety and impressing, along with Vlad, we have some youth back at safety that could potentially be very good in the long-run. Not that adding JT to that mix would be a bad thing necessarily but slimming back down and focusing on CB would be ideal. The big question is if they did move him to safety and he focused on safety 100%, you never know how he could pan out there. He could be dominant but then again, he could struggle. It's a toss up and I can see why coaches are at a cross road with what direction to go with him. The good news is, regardless of where he plays, he has the athleticisim and swagger to be a very good contributor.
I think Turner is one guy we've been overlooking. From what we've been hearing, he's just gotten too tall and generally big to be a really effective cover corner. But if that's the only problem (i.e. he isn't lazy, isn't having problems figuring things out, and hasn't eaten himself into a DE), then he's still an athletic kid with playmaking ability. I have to imagine that he'll find the field somewhere.
I'm guessing he gets at least one start at Safety or Bandit (though the differences between Spur and Bandit are still unclear to me).
The last thing anyone does in the Michigan football fanbase is overlook one of its own players, especially one with recruiting "hype." Heck, fans know everything about all these kids from the age of 16. Justin Turner is a redshirt freshman, how in the world can he be overlooked?
I understand your point, and I agree to an extent. There isn't anyone on the roster (and especially JT) that makes this board say, "hey, who is that young fella?" But players can be overlooked when trying to Carnac the two-deep.
We've been touting JT as a corner since last year. Therefore, our collective pathos keeps to scream, "Turner is a corner," and therefore to slot him as such. My point was simply that if he really is "too big" to be a corner, he is now probably big enough for some other position (safety, bandit, spur, etc.). We see his new-found Hulkness is a blow to expected corner play, but we ignore the potential boost to middle-of-the-defensive-backfield depth.
If Justin Turner is moved from the cornerback position this year, the depth chart reads:
Starters - Troy Woolfolk and JT Floyd
Backups - Rogers, Christian, Avery and Talbott
This is where the loss of Demar Dorsey will be felt, at CB depth. Turner has to stay at CB until the 2011 class shows up. Any injuries at CB and Turner is playing.
This isn't an either/or situation. We do need JT on the depth chart at corner. But that doesn't mean that he can't also be on the depth chart somewhere else.
If he's good enough to win the job at corner, that's great. If not, he can get some reps at other spots. If Angry Michigan Corner Hating God arises and strikes down a starting corner, they can move JT back. He's gotten plenty of reps there in practice over the past year, and Woolfolk demonstrated last year that moving from safety to corner mid-season is definitely do-able.
From what I have read it seems that the BANDIT is more like a traditional Strong Safety playing close to the line with slot and TE responsibility plus some deeper coverages. The SPUR is more of a true hybrid SS/OLB a la Stevie Brown last year with strong run support on the edge and coverage in the flats.
We're covering tight ends this year?
I like the change in scheme already...
I will loudly admit that Turner is a guy I've been overlooking. As the season has drawn closer and closer, I've been worrying about the CB depth behind Floyd and Troy W, completely forgetting about the defensive guy I was most looking forward to seeing last season. Hopefully I will get a chance to see the spring game again (or I'll just watch each QB's plays on Youtube) and keep my eye open for Turner.
I would love for him to stay at CB because of his height, but if Christian can demonstrate the ability to be a contributor quickly, I wouldn't be too displeased if Cam Gordon and JT Turner saw some kind of split time playing deep.
I understand that speed and agility are extremely important for a cover corner, but what's wrong with a little height and mass? Outside wideouts with size are coveted why not have a corner that can challenge those guys for the ball. No matter what, I'm still pumped to see what he can do on the field.
Gibson says that Turner will get the chance to play corner, and could be a very very good one. Here's a link .
http://midnightmaize.blogspot.com/2010/07/road-to-redemption-2010-secon…
But I worry about the Fred Jackson effect, where "this kid is like Jesus, only more holy and with a better 40 time" means that he'll get some reps in mop-up duty.
...link to where that Gibson quote came from. Care to share?
It came from the 2010 Football preview in The Wolverine magazine
He may have grown an inch but he was 6'1" during his senior year. Recruiting services kept looking at how big he was and predicting a move to safety. But he went to all star games and killed it at cornerback. That is what Rodriguez recruited him to play and I believe is his preferred position.
When it comes to his size, I haven't heard anything about bad weight from the spring or a lack of athelticism. The only problem with Turner is we haven't heard "oh my god he is Charles Woodson Jr." That is what we (unrealistically) were hoping for and since we haven't heard it but have instead heard positive things about Floyd, we assume there is a problem with Turner.
I suspect that the fact Turner came in late (and I have also heard out of shape) and that Floyd has more than a year on him is the reason that Floyd is ahead of him on the depth chart as of now. However, I am not convinced that Turner won't be the starter at corner come Sept 4th if he has a good fall camp. And either way, I think he will be at worst the third corner on this team for the rest of the year.
Of the ten BCS teams on our roster, Illinois is the only team that does not feature a receiver of at least 6'2". Turner has the best size of any corner on our roster. That doesn't necessarly mean that he will be better at covering taller receivers than Woolfolk or Christian, but you would think it probably does. If he's a playmaker he'll find a spot. If he can keep the Tandon Doss types of the world from catching over-the-shoulder-crusher-of-hopes then he can play corner in the Big Ten.
edit: grammar
Well, since 90% or so of the CB's in college football are less than 6'2", maybe being taller doesn't necessarily make you better at that position. It's not like Cullen or Floyd or Woolfolk are that short anyway.
Clearly, if he can play the position, the coaches will leave him there. However, CB is one spot where being taller is not necessarily better.
...it's probably still relevant.
One NFC team prescribes maximum heights for each position. If a prospect is taller than the second tallest productive player in the NFL at that position, he gets a red flag. The thinking is the tallest productive player in the NFL probably is an aberration. That isn't to say the prospect can't be an aberration, like "Too Tall" Jones. But the team would have to determine that. In this year's draft, there are a handful of prospects who will face extra scrutiny because of their heights.
Brandon Browner, CB, Oregon State, 6-3 1/2. Everyone needs tall corners, right? Well, not this tall. Broncos cornerback Lenny Walls is 6-4, and that's one reason he came into the league as a free agent. "Corners who are cut too high can't turn and run," an AFC personnel director says.
For this reason, a tall corner is more troubling than a tall receiver, such as 6-4 Southern California wideout Mike Williams. Taller receivers usually lack quickness in and out of their cuts, but that skill is not as vital to a receiver as it is to a corner.
Some prominent tall-ish current/recent NFL CBs: