Goodman claims sources from the program say Juwan's culture is bad
Here's the link to the discussion with Hummel.
Basically, he says sources from the program told him Jace was being a jerk to a trainer. Sanderson didn't like it and said "that's why the culture is how it is around here" or words to that effect. Juwan Howard then went toe-to-toe with Sanderson in full view of the team. Maybe the worst part is Goodman claims his sources in the program say many are unhappy with the culture of the team on and off the court and have been for a while.
Goodman is a bit of a blowhard but Hummel is usually excellent. Don't shoot the messenger.
December 13th, 2023 at 9:33 AM ^
If it is 1/2 true, it is probably time...
December 13th, 2023 at 10:09 AM ^
Thank god he's not a good coach, or this would be ignored.
December 13th, 2023 at 11:05 AM ^
It all feeds into each other. If the team was winning, I bet the players and assistant coaches would like the culture more. That said, I agree this sadly isn't working, as much as I admire and respect Juwan.
December 13th, 2023 at 11:12 AM ^
My admiration and respect for Juwan has dropped steadily during his time at Michigan.
If that story is real, I'd back Sanderson in that scenario. Calling it like he sees it. Clearly something wrong, because with all the talent that was hanging around last year, there should have been way better outcomes. Michigan basketball just isn't fun right now.
December 13th, 2023 at 1:44 PM ^
If that story is real, I'd back Sanderson in that scenario. Calling it like he sees it.
It's the wrong time and place to "call it like you see it." This is like calling out your boss in front of the whole company and saying he sucks and no one likes to work for him, and then expecting your boss not to react and be cool with what you say, because you're "speaking your truth" or some other nonsense. Sanderson is contributing to the shitty culture by finger-pointing and making things public that should be private.
This isn't to defend Juwan. Sounds like he acted like an asshole (shocking!), but Sanderson could have handled that better, too. You just don't call out your coach or boss like that. Assistant coaches contributing towards the division in the team and openly stirring shit is not good. You don't have to back anyone in this scenario. Sounds like everyone acted foolishly.
December 13th, 2023 at 3:29 PM ^
I agree with this, except if he doesn’t feel like he can have that conversation with Howard (or maybe he has and doesn’t perceive change) then doesn’t that speak to the exact culture Sanderson is calling out?
December 13th, 2023 at 3:32 PM ^
Having only read the OP and not the article, it reads to me that Sanderson called out Jace, not Juwan, which he has every right to do imo. If accurate, Juwan needs to develop some thicker skin as it involves others disciplining his son. Especially those who have that as part of their job description.
December 13th, 2023 at 3:36 PM ^
He didn’t call him out in public he did it at a practice. Howard’s kid being a jerk might have been the straw that broke the camels back. I tend to believe the Juwan is a jerk and believe there is a problem with how bad this team has been the last couple of years. Definitely worse than they should be for their talent. There is obviously a problem
December 13th, 2023 at 4:37 PM ^
It would be surprising if this was the first time the culture was brought up.
I'm sure it has been discussed a lot behind the scenes. That is why there was confidence to allow it to spill over.
Perhaps Coach Howard has been aware, perhaps not. But he is definitely a "reacter". He gets firey in a combative way that other coaches don't. Even if he restrains himself for the next year, there still seems to be an an emotional insecurity or inability to see the long term plan that is bothersome.
If someone said something like this in front of me, I'd literally feel a little hurt, suggest we talk in private, come up with a plan and re-address the team. The issue is known. When spoken openly like this, it is now the highest priority to address (over ball handling, big man positioning, and other skills Coach could impart).
December 13th, 2023 at 11:23 AM ^
I honestly can't believe what I'm reading. In this subthread, or in this thread.
It has barely been a month since the story-a-day deluge from the Stalions scandal finally slowed down. There was a new sensationalized hit piece on ESPN's front page every day for WEEKS. And the relationship to the truth was... strained, at best.
All of it piling on our football head coach, Jim Harbaugh, whom we all defend tooth and nail, because he's our guy and because he's winning.
Except, we didn't defend him in 2020. I attacked the locker room, the attention to detail, the entire program, very publicly. Brian's game columns after the disastrous collapse against Wisconsin and the crushing defeat to Penn State weren't inquiries about Harbaugh's job but epitaphs on his regime, assuming that Harbaugh was done and there was no salvaging the program. It wasn't just that the team lost, it was how he lost.
This board has called for the firings of Beilein, Bakich, Barnes-Arico, and Harbaugh, and seen all of them take their programs to heights rarely touched and scarcely dreamt of.
We have seen media outrages, often with kernels of truth behind them, turn into dogpiles eagerly juiced by rival programs trying to neutralize a legitimate threat. Do I believe that Juwan has a blind spot for his boys, and that it might not be great for the team culture? Yes, I do. I still believe the the football locker room in 2020 was really bad, and I believe that Beilein's mid-teens teams were catastrophically bad at defense, too. People (including me in Harbaugh's case) wanted HC firings, and Michigan stuck to its culture and retained them instead, and changes were made, and MASSIVE success followed.
This does not guarantee that Juwan will have the same turnaround success that Beilein and Bakich and Harbaugh had. But it is sheer idiocy to see how these things have played out, time and time again in the last decade, and buy right into the same outrage that was wrong in each case before.
You all should know better than to just swallow every media rumor. You should know better than to assume that a coach who has seen real success (and Juwan has!) can never get it done because he or she has hit a bit of a low spot. And you should know that even if the coach doesn't work out, Michigan doesn't pull a quick trigger like other programs, and it is in our best interest to give the coach everything they need, including time, to succeed until it is time to part ways. We have seen numerous examples of this.
And yet people here are falling into the same trap.
December 13th, 2023 at 11:27 AM ^
Thankfully in this season, we have a calm voice of reason. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
December 13th, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
We’ve also seen a coach who loves Michigan dearly but had very little high level coaching experience start off great but gradually get worse year after year to the point that he was regularly underperforming with talented teams. His name was Brady Hoke. Juwan has already gotten more time than Hoke did. It was clear it wasn’t working out with Hoke and he wasn’t fit to be the coach of a major college football program. We’ll see what happens with Juwan but signs aren’t good.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^
Actually, Howard improved from year one to year two, earning a #1 seed and only missing the FF because a future NBA starter uncharacteristically couldn't make a shot to save his life.
As I've argued, we seem to have learned nothing. Take this quote, for example:
"Man they are not a good team. Don't make excuses for that mess bro. Kansas got bored when Michigan went zone and let them back in the game. It's time for a change in bball too. The talent difference in recruiting is ridiculous. He been there 4 years.....why is his team still "young"?"
It's time for Warde to get off his fat keister and do something. Beilein shouldn't be allowed to finish this season. Absolutely inexcusable to lose at home to this god awful OSU team with your tournament lives on the line. This team takes on the identity of its coach: soft, uninspired, boring
and
Beilein is insulting the fanbase with performances like tonight. And I would take my chances with Donlon coaching the rest of the season. At the very least we'd see some effort and fire from the players.
and
Donlon was a head coach for several years. Donlon is the one who wrote "street fight" on the wall before the Illinois and Indiana games. Its clear that he knows how to inspire the players in ways Beilein doesn't. Personally I don't care if firing Beilein now hurts his feelings. He's being paid millions of dollars to fail at his job.
Stringer Bell, February, 2017.
Turnabout is fair play; here are links to the game stories posted after Wisconsin and Penn State where you can find some truly abominable takes from me on the state of Michigan's football program.
The reality is that you are making different *specific* arguments than you made against Beilein or I made against Harbaugh (though nebulous "locker room culture" etc always comes up, since it can't be quantified or even verified) but the error is the same.
Have we learned nothing?
December 13th, 2023 at 1:04 PM ^
I readily admit I was ready to get rid of Beilein during his bad years and I was wrong. Does that automatically mean every coach is destined to turn it around? There are a lot of bad things around the program right now. A team that gets worse defensively every year despite entirely new players, an offense that regularly turns the ball over, star players leaving the program and having nothing good to say about it, and now this. There’s a lot of negativity.
December 13th, 2023 at 1:08 PM ^
Comparing Juwan’s situation - inheriting a top-10 program, perennial competitor for the Big Ten, national championship aspirations - to what Beilein and Harbaugh inherited strikes me as completely insane, as does comparing their respective track records.
Harbaugh and Beilein both inherited programs that were out wandering in the wilderness and turned them around, and both had decades of prior success to point to. Howard’s trajectory and performance looks to me more like a worse version of Ryan Day, with bouts of anger management issues to boot
I agree we should be patient and wait for more info, but comparing these situations seems wild to me
December 13th, 2023 at 1:28 PM ^
The guys worst season he won 18 games and finished top 5 in the B1G…let’s get the torches and pitchforks ready!!!!!!!
S\
Has it been great…no, but let’s stop acting like we are the worst team in the country. They are coming off a road conference win and could be in the midst of a 5-6 game winning streak.
December 13th, 2023 at 1:35 PM ^
Are you happy with the general trajectory right now? I am not
December 13th, 2023 at 2:00 PM ^
Change the result of the Long Beach State game and I would be actually pleasantly surprised with this team. Huge game against Florida next Tuesday and can't drop anymore cupcakes. Minnesota and Penn State both very gettable, 3-1 in the conference is very possible.
Really like the development of Tschettar. Great signs from Tarris at Iowa and a much more controlled game, physically and emotionally, from Dug also. Help coming at the point next year along with a composite Top 50 wing. Nkamhoua admittedly a bit confusing. Would like to see GW3 getting some more time and clarification on what exactly is going on Llewelyn.
I think the biggest mistake of the season was Howard coming back before he was ready to do so in a head coaching capacity. Confused the hell out of the kids I think.
December 13th, 2023 at 3:04 PM ^
Glad for this perspective.
It would seem we have an overtly aggressive, non-composure society.
If things are not "great" then throw away school basketball legend with a net-worth of $80 million.
Are we a loyal fanbase or only when we win?
Go Blue.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:09 PM ^
Whats longer? Juwans time left at UM or a stephenrjking post?
December 13th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
The problem is that there will invariably be more posts to follow, while Howard will almost certainly only have one coaching tenure here.
(What's shorter: your post, or the memory of people who think *this time* the nebulous rumors provided by hostile media outlets about a Michigan program will be accurate and should be actionable?)
December 13th, 2023 at 11:40 AM ^
The rumors are just an accelerant on a growing burn. The issues people have are a direct result of the performance on the court. Rumors just let us add that. But, aside from the other coaches you mention, what you do not mention is that they each have a history of success, which bodes well for future success. Juwan has a fleeting amount of success as he inherited a very strong program. He has subsequently taken it in a downward spiral. The 2020 Harbaugh talk was egregious but all will agree that year was his outlier. Where is Juwan's? The first year. And the outlier is a strong year that showed steady or improving performance.
December 13th, 2023 at 11:47 AM ^
But Harbaugh wasnt taking bitch swings at other coaches or having angry outbursts/scuffles on his staff either.
December 13th, 2023 at 11:47 AM ^
This is a good writeup, and normally I'd agree with this sentiment as I frequently think that coaches get the raw end of the deal more often than not, however this is grossly overlooking the past issues Juwan has had. Storming out onto the court during a live play at Michigan State, slapping a Wisconsin coach, allowing players like Hunter Dickinson to be on-court (and occasionally off-court) douchebags despite almost never backing up their words and actions.
Jim, Beilein, and Bakich never had these types of issues where it seems like the coach is not fit for the role, they were always the adult in the room and it just seems like Juwan isn't that.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:18 PM ^
This is just engaging in the same error with different specifics. "I feel strongly about this, so THIS time it's different because (find reason x).
This is a good writeup, and normally I'd agree with this sentiment as I frequently think that coaches get the raw end of the deal more often than not, however this is grossly overlooking the past issues Juwan has had.
We always find specific reasons why this time it's different. I'm not overlooking anything. I had very legitimate reasons to doubt Harbaugh and spelled them out, and my reasoning was not illogical.
Storming out onto the court during a live play at Michigan State, slapping a Wisconsin coach,
Juwan appears to occasionally get hot under the collar, and the slap event was wrong and has resulted in a specific consequences, and must not recur. But guys losing their composure? Harbaugh had a notorious rep for that, and also has in the past been identified as a "prickly" personality that people trouble getting along with. He actually fixed some of that sideline behavior that was nationally notorious, and the result was that people on here criticized him for being detached and depressed and longed for the "old Harbaugh" because people on message boards will complain about literally anything.
allowing players like Hunter Dickinson to be on-court (and occasionally off-court) douchebags despite almost never backing up their words and actions.
I don't understand how having a good player on the roster for three years that happens to be personally off-putting is a referendum on the fact that a guy can't coach. Literally every coach has to deal with some challenging people.
Jim, Beilein, and Bakich never had these types of issues
They had other issues. Beilein's were well-litigated.
where it seems like the coach is not fit for the role,
I don't know what this means. Because he has lost his temper? Perhaps, but lots of guys do that and coach successfully. I do find it something to watch, but this is a big leap.
they were always the adult in the room and it just seems like Juwan isn't that.
"it just seems" is a paraphrase for "I feel this strongly."
Like I felt about Harbaugh in 2020.
Have we learned nothing?
December 13th, 2023 at 12:58 PM ^
I appreciate your attempt to rip my argument apart into bite-sized chunks for me, but I'm still not so sure why you're dead set on dying on this hill for Juwan. I'm not saying he needs to be let go because of on-court performance. I'm not saying he needs to be let go because of his antics. But when you combine the two a strong case can be made that he's just simply not the guy.
"Hot under the collar" is greatly underselling Juwan's antics. Harbaugh '08-'16 was hot under the collar, Fran McCaffery and Tom Izzo are hot under the collar. They don't slap other coaches, or charge other benches during a game. It's not each individual event that tells me it's time for Michigan to move on, it's the culmination, combined with the fact that his teams are getting worse every year (before you say this is my "feeling", there's data to support this, check KenPom et. al), and the roster is an absolute mess, despite two straight years of evidence that this type of roster construction does not work.
Also, coaches in fact can have a massive impact on their players' behavior. It's one thing to be off-putting. Mo Wagner was off-putting to many people, but he was still a sportsman as evidenced by his behavior after the JP buzzer-beater, and he definitely wasn't doing shit like pretending to drop his dick on the floor after making a 3 when his team is down double digits.
I'm sure this word salad from me isn't going to change your opinion, but you're comparing apples to oranges with the Beilein/Harbaugh/Bakich comps. Juwan has behavioral AND basketball issues that haven't been addressed. None of those guys had the same combination.
December 13th, 2023 at 1:08 PM ^
As I say below: I'm not dying on a hill for Juwan. My position is, in basketball terms, he needs until the end of next year. Last year was the first tournament in which he didn't participate. Michigan is not a quick-trigger school, and that has generally been to its credit, particularly in the situations I've cited.
I'm on the hill of not rushing to defenestrate a guy when history shows that patience has paid off, and I'm definitely on the hill of not buying media rumors and turning them into a narrative. When you say "It's not each individual event that tells me it's time for Michigan to move on, it's the culmination," that is the sort of thing that media rumor mills like this create. Most people who believe Michigan deserves huge punishment for the Stalions scandal believe it because "it's not each individual event... it's the culmination." The stories and rumors and headlines that together build a mental model for someone that they base things off of.
And when this thread is started by some media guy not known to be close to the program spouting rumors, well, people who are reacting to it negatively toward Juwan are buying the media firestorm.
Now, the on-court critiques are very valid; basketball hasn't been fun for a couple of years. But Michigan does not fire guys quickly for that. In sporting terms, Juwan should get, and will get, more time. If there are, in fact, personal behavioral issues, and it's enough to necessitate a change, I strongly believe that should be dealt with separately. And perhaps decisively. Sanderson has filed a complaint, which means we're not talking about a nothingburger, and that needs to be addressed.
But not because Goodman says he heard something.
December 13th, 2023 at 2:43 PM ^
It should be easy to admit he has a valid point about overreacting to a couple of media stories with "sources". If the signgate saga has taught us anything, it is that nobody really ever knows very much. And they will just dribble out the most minor tidbit of a rumor for clicks. We should be more discerning about what we become enraged about, especially after all we've been through.
December 13th, 2023 at 11:55 AM ^
The massive difference is that JB and Harbaugh had long established track records of success as Head Coach to draw upon and Juwan has none of that. I can see giving Juwan to the end of the season to see if he can right the ship, but if they miss the tourney again, I see zero reason to keep Juwan around next year.
December 13th, 2023 at 11:57 AM ^
I didn't attack Jim in 2020. I never thought we could get a better coach. But that's beside the point. There's a big difference with this commentary about Juwan and what happened with Stalions that you're ignoring. With Juwan- yes he's not proving to be a good coach- but his problems have also been directly embarrassing the U due to his OWN secondary behaviors, not his record. Jim never punched an opposing coach or any of the toxic things that seem to happen with Juwan. Jim was taking the hit for something done independently by a guy even below an analyst position. If it comes out that Jim knew something and lied to cover it up, he should be fired. If Jim consistently behaves like Juwan he should face the same scrutiny. Your conflating histories in an effort to call us hypocrites and I call BS.
December 13th, 2023 at 11:58 AM ^
The first rule of controversy:
If there is a clickable event, the only certainty is that it will create an exponential number of follow-on clickable events. This seems consistent with this rule.
Our Coach just went through major surgery in what could have been a life threatening event. His son is hurt. He hasn't been able to be present at the key moments to shape team culture, a team of many transfers.
I am going to wait before I give him the thumbs down.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:07 PM ^
Great post.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:19 PM ^
The fact that you spent THAT much time writing a response to compare a person who has a history of physically and verbally assulting people to a list of other people who have no history of doing such things (in fact in some cases the exact opposite), at least at this institution (of which I have zero affiliation with), is appalling.
This isn't a "winning and losing" discussion. It's a "culture" discussion from an institution that, from what I understand, takes a great deal of pride in knowing that the 18-23 year old students that it houses are getting developed and molded into fine young men and women that the rest of society would be proud of.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:23 PM ^
1. It didn't take much time at all.
2. "A history of physically and verbally assaulting people" that's pretty strong language, which I would argue doesn't fairly characterize Juwan's record. I don't consider his behavior in the Wisconsin game to be in any way appropriate, but that's not the same thing as what you've described.
3. I don't think you read carefully if your main takeaway is that I was trying to compare the character of Juwan to that of Beilein and Harbaugh.
4. I'm sorry you're appalled that I typed words; not clear what about the length makes any difference in the content.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:55 PM ^
You are going to bat so hard for a guy who is in his fifth year and is about to produce a second consecutive NIT team. We have unlimited resources and are not performing at the level we were at before Juwan. Maybe if we had Bobby Knight on the sidlelines and his outbursts came with undefeated seasons and national titles we could all overlook some unfortunate incidents but there is no evidence that Juwan is anything to write home about, there is no track record of success like Harbaugh's to have faith in.
There is no reason to think this program cannot do better.
December 13th, 2023 at 1:01 PM ^
I am not going to bat for Juwan. I am going to bat against the reflexive tendency for people to rush to judgment, and to swallow media narratives without facts.
I am interested in the facts. Jon Sanderson's HR complaint may produce facts. Michigan's on-floor performance produces facts.
What was your position on Beilein and Harbaugh? I've put my stuff out there, and I am applying some things I've learned.
December 13th, 2023 at 1:39 PM ^
Beilein and Harbaugh
a. both had incredibly long track records of success in other jobs and reputations as program builders who would lay the foundations for something good here
b. walked into much more difficult situations than Juwan and produced relatively immediate results which bought them a lot of additional rope
Juwan had no CBB coaching experience, no head coaching experience at all, and has not inspired confidence with his personnel management, comportment on the sidelines, recruiting, or year-on-year results. What is the rationale for being patient? Why keep around Brian Ellerbe with anger issues just because Jim Harbaugh?
December 13th, 2023 at 12:36 PM ^
Exactly. That was lot of posturing that completely missed the point that this is potentially about (yet another) physical confrontation. Howard's immediate issues aren't about winning and losing.....they're about how he conducts himself and runs his (and the University's) program.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:35 PM ^
Nature abhors a vacuum.
I've never been among the "Fire Warde" crowd but a common theme in every scandal/incident/drama around the AD is that there is never any communication or narrative put forth from the department. People will fill in the blanks in any way they'd like.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:39 PM ^
SRKJ, I would normally agree with your balanced take.
The big - very big - difference is that Beilein and Harbaugh had proven track records of success across decades before coming to Michigan.
There was reason to believe that the "bad" years were the outliers...the exception.
Howard does not have this long track record of success.
It's not a given that he will fail. It's also not a given that he will succeed.
December 13th, 2023 at 12:42 PM ^
That is very well put. What standard would you use to decide when to move on from a coach?
December 13th, 2023 at 1:02 PM ^
I don't think you can classify these as rumors anymore. He swung and hit a coach on national live TV..we all saw it. Im sure you did as well
If he has the error in judgement to do that on live TV, well, then those errors are probably even bigger off TV.
Im sorry, after that moment, he lost all credibility.
December 13th, 2023 at 1:04 PM ^
The thing I can't believe are the people who think MBB is historically a NCAA marquee program. I blame Beilein for having a moderately successful program when Michigan football was dogs**t. So I guess... Fire Beilein.
/s
December 13th, 2023 at 2:59 PM ^
Michigan basketball reached the national title game in the 1960s, '70s, '80s, '90s and 2010s - under four different head coaches.
December 13th, 2023 at 1:04 PM ^
You had me at "....and seen all of them take their programs to heights rarely touched and scarcely dreamt of"
Well stated!
December 13th, 2023 at 1:08 PM ^
It's not a trap if it's repetitive behavior. And I get what you are saying. Sometimes it takes people more than one learning experience to actually make a change. Maybe or maybe not the AD has patience for that. Who knows?
December 13th, 2023 at 1:28 PM ^
Howard has previously demonstrated, in public, his lack of self control. It certainly wouldn’t be surprising if it happened again. Here, the information is reportedly coming from within the program, as opposed to the Stalions information being hyped by rival schools.
There is no comparison between this situation and the meltdown people here, including yourself, had after the 2020 football season, when you and many others wanted Harbaugh fired for insufficient winning. It’s certainly true that press reports should not immediately and automatically believed, but there is smoke here and people aren’t foolish for expressing concern about the state of the basketball program. As someone who was very much in favor of firing the guy who went on to win three straight Big 10 titles, which all had a lot to do with a strong team culture, you’re probably not the best person to be lecturing others about their views on coaches.
December 13th, 2023 at 2:06 PM ^
Damn, kid. Well put. I have been shamed into reversing my position. Now I feel like the guy with the pitchfork in the lynch mob in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "Burn him anyways!!!"
December 13th, 2023 at 3:00 PM ^
While I care about on court, and on field success, we should never tolerate a coach slapping another coach. It's been my opinion since that has happened and remains the same. I've called for his firing then and I continue to call for it now. Those other coaches you mentioned did not have the same sort of incidences transpire. Maybe the slapping colors this situation a bit for me, but in my mind this is just a continuation of that behavior. It's behavior that we shouldn't have tolerated then and behavior that should have resulted in him being shown the door. I love Juwan but these scenarios are not comparable
December 13th, 2023 at 3:42 PM ^
The difference is that we have all seen Juwan do very stupid things in public and act in a way that is embarrassing to the program, school and fans. He has been talked to about it and yet we are now hearing again he’s acting the same way
How many times does this have to happen before you finally cut ties? Coaching ability is one thing. Being a black eye for the school time and time again is a problem and a character flaw that doesn’t seem like it’s going to change