Football or not: it's about the heart
In the midst of the play-or-not discussion, Sports Illustrated published a very interesting report on Sunday about the role of heart issues in determining the future of the college football season. This is serious and it's difficult to dispute the importance of heart issues in the aftermath of an athlete contracting Covid-19.
Read about it: https://www.si.com/college/2020/08/09/ncaa-cardiac-inflamation-coronavirus-myocarditis-concerns
In the wake of this information, given its apparent medical accuracy, it would be surprising for the Big 10 to proceed with games this fall! Of course, the assumption is that the risks of playing are worse than the risks of not playing.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:05 PM ^
the argument being made is that college programs (with all the testing and medical staff) is a safer place to be than in normal society
August 11th, 2020 at 12:19 PM ^
All it takes is 1 P5 player to test positive and have a bad reaction. No way any University will allow that liability risk unless players sign contractual health waivers. In the end, everyone is pleading for a season (coaches, fans, and players) for relatively self centric reasons. What happens when a player dies or their career ends because of respiratory or cardiac complications? Will that guilt and onus fall on the coaches, players and fans who fought so desperately for a season because they wanted money and entertainment? There are so many factors that are affecting this decision but I believe the first and foremost concern would be who takes on the responsibility if something does happen.
We know the virus affects younger people much less than elderly people. We also know that it affects obese/overweight people much more. Lineman are a high risk group whether you like it or not.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:35 PM ^
I don't disagree with anything you said
My point is, does being elsewhere reduce the risk?
Kids back home without the testing and medical care, or on campus with less care and oversight than the football team gets?
I don't know, but I understand the point that Nick Saban was making that the kids are safer in the football environment than being in the general public
August 11th, 2020 at 12:44 PM ^
Most athletes will continue to train whether there are college sports this year or not so the risk isn't going away. This is all about CYA from college administrators.
August 11th, 2020 at 3:49 PM ^
That's the truth. I believe administrators really are trying to find a good balance of normalcy and caring for students and athletes, but the lawyers in the background also know there's a good amount of liability floating in the background. Decades ago, no one really knew just how bad breathing asbestos was for you, but manufacturers and users of it are ultimately liable nonetheless in present times. CTE in NFL players may be a more relevant example where they kinda knew, kinda didn't but ultimately should've taken a lot more action than they did. If we find there are longterm health problems for some of these guys and girls, there's liability there for the university later
August 11th, 2020 at 12:46 PM ^
I agree that the environment will likely be safer. But from the University's perspective, if the season is cancelled and the players go home to do online courses, they are just like any other student doing online courses. If they get sick, they hold no responsibility or liability. Once they accept a season, they also accept liability over the player's welfare. Now if the players came out and said they will sign a liability waiver absolving the University liability towards their health then I feel like this is pretty reasonable.
How can you trust that every P5 player will uphold the strict quarantine standards? NBA players have been violating quarantine (Louis Williams). Those are professionals who are getting paid. To think that no players will be going to parties or going out is totally unrealistic. For a frame of reference, I know medical schools are having issues preventing the students from partying/going out. And those are medical students, I imagine regular students and athletes are profoundly worse. Like I said, there are so many factors to take into consideration and almost impossible to control all of them.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:17 PM ^
Interesting point about the medical students, and not surprising whatsoever. It's too much to ask young, mostly healthy people with virtually no chance of hospitalization to put their college time and experience on hold.. I think acting like that is possible is being unrealistic.
So if we've accounted for that, and bars and restaurants are open, people are holding backyard BBQ's and pool parties, etc... do we just keep cancelling anything and everything that could possibly be involved in a lawsuit?
Not trying to be snarky.. just seems like the virus is just going to keep doing it's thing whether we're cancelling everything or not. College football teams, as has been discussed ad nauseam, were probably in a pretty good place to move forward with a season without fans in the stands as opposed to many other things in society.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:43 PM ^
The only possible way I can see the season happening is if they bubble the players (like the NBA) for an entire season and have them sign liability waivers. Think about how impossible it is for EA sports to make a damn college football video game. College football is just too big and too expansive to contain at the same level as NFL, NBA, or MLB. Best course of action would be to force the NCAA's hand in making athletes professionals, pay them and require them to bubble and sign liability waivers.
In terms of the grand scheme of things, based on what i've heard from friends in the medical field, this virus will be with us going into 2021, especially if we can't even get people to wear damn masks. Given that this is an election year with the most volatile president ever, you can expect more riots, looting, protests no matter the outcome of the election. More setbacks. Don't expect things to change anytime soon.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:56 PM ^
"My point is, does being elsewhere reduce the risk?"
That's a great question. On one hand players have access to medical care and Covid testing the rest of the world can only dream of but on the other hand unless they are a biker determined to go to Sturgus to watch ZZ Top cover bands or a professional protester at night I'm hard-pressed to think of an environment less Covid-spread friendly than a football field.
And how can you ask an amateur to sign a waiver of liability? If they did they would be acknowledging they are actually professional athletes disguised as students. But without a waiver any school playing is opening themselves to massive financial liability exposure if even one player tests positive and has long-term health issues or God forbid, dies.
This is an incredibly difficult decision to make. One where both sides have a valid argument for their position (shocking I know). I'm glad I dont have to make it.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:02 PM ^
I don't think any litigation would get as far as you think. To begin, it would be nearly impossible to determine where/how somebody acquired a virus. It would not be enough to say that "I played football and now I have a virus, thus...." That case would be thrown out of court. It would not even see a trial even if a diagnosis occurred during an outbreak. The entire element of provable causation would be missing.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:44 PM ^
Do you say that as a lawyer? Not a lawyer, but I do regularly provide technical expertise to support litigation. I can pretty easily imagine a fairly compelling fact pattern.
Player A tests positive - shortly thereafter, a group of players in close contact with player A contract Covid. One or more has good records to substantiate that he did not have significant other opportunity to contract the disease (online classes, roommates did not test positive, no parties, store visits). If on top of that levels on team were significantly higher than community, that would be a pretty good fact pattern.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:05 PM ^
And how can you ask an amateur to sign a waiver of liability? If they did they would be acknowledging they are actually professional athletes disguised as students.
When I took skydiving lessons, I signed a waiver of liability. I guess I'm a professional skydiver now.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:08 PM ^
Unless they are asking all students to sign waivers to attend classes I dont think your analogy holds.
It would more like they just asked YOU to sign the waiver and everyone else in the plane jumped without having to sign one. I'm guessing if that happened you would be quite reluctant to jump out of a perfectly good airplane.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:15 PM ^
I don't understand. Are the rest of the students going to play football? The players would be engaging in an activity that others are not.
People sign waivers all of the time for volunteer activities, going on a roller coaster ride, etc. That does not make them professionals.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:59 PM ^
I feel like there has to be something preventing Universities from having the players sign liability waivers. Otherwise I'd bet some University would have proposed it already. Are the players advocating for a season willing to self isolate with their teammates in a bubble for an entire season, not socialize with their family or friends, and sign a waiver absolving the University if someone does happen to them in the bubble? If they can get every P5 player to agree and do this then maybe we can have a season. I for one, think there are too many players and too many administrations to get this done. If you have some teams play and others sit out, then you have a huge logistical problem regarding scholarships, records, etc.
People can flame the University admins as much as they want but no one here knows all the factors going into this and can't possibly make a more reasonable decision than they can. So just trust that the best decision will be made given all the factors involved.
August 11th, 2020 at 2:09 PM ^
I think you could make the argument that college football is a profit-based endeavor and that the players are used to make that profit. There's a direct connection between the two, I'm not an attorney and so know nothing about employment law but that seems like a area that could be mined.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:05 PM ^
I can think of environments less Covid-spread friendly than a football field: college town bars and house parties. Or will all the students on campus fear the virus enough to avoid those situations this school year? That seems unlikely, and I think an athlete with a season to play would be more self-disciplined about not putting himself and his teammates at risk than the same athlete without a season.
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong about signing a waiver making you a professional. I've been asked to sign waivers at Sky Zone trampoline park and for some recreational activities at the resort I just went to with my family for a few days. I don't see the connection to being a professional athlete.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:10 PM ^
You're right they do. They ask ALL people at Sky Zone to sign one, not just some of the people who are there.
Asking the students who are playing football to sign a waiver of liability is fine as long as ALL students are asked to sign one to attend classes.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:45 PM ^
I think you're wrong. Competing in a sport is a voluntary activity that involves risk. You ask all students who compete in sports to sign them. Not all students who assume a different level of risk by not engaging in athletics.
August 11th, 2020 at 2:34 PM ^
Don't student-athletes already sign waivers for injuries? I feel like they must. Otherwise they could sue the University if they tear their ACL, no? There must be some precedent.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:15 PM ^
Man who makes $7M coaching says playing is safe.
Lawyers probably assess the liability risk to the University differently.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:37 PM ^
it unequivocally is safer than normal society. my wife is a doctor and was in the room with a vomiting patient who tested positive for covid hours later, yet she couldn't obtain a test while she remained asymptomatic (which thankfully she did). yet we can preemptively test athletes across the nation. how's that for priorities??
August 11th, 2020 at 2:42 PM ^
Or they could continue to support those athletes without requiring them to play football this fall. Why exactly do they need to play in order to receive support this year?
August 11th, 2020 at 12:08 PM ^
“There are more important things than living”. Texas lieutenant governor Dan Patrick. /s
PS - I am not a doctor and I don’t know the long term implications of the heart issues related to Covid. I do have a heart issue that has followed me since I was a kid. It has limited my recreational options, caused issues with health insurance, and means my life insurance is extreme expensive. These are not things 18 years olds realize or factor into their decisions to play football this year.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:16 PM ^
Lieutenant governor.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:20 PM ^
Lieutenant Dan then. Corrected.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:07 PM ^
Ice cream!
August 11th, 2020 at 2:54 PM ^
Nice!
August 11th, 2020 at 12:10 PM ^
I don't think the risk is any greater playing or not playing. Players are still going to catch the virus and a small percentage may get inflammation of the heart, which most will recover. Very rare for this to cause heart failure or irreversible damage to the heart muscle.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:10 PM ^
Oh my...you should have stopped after your first three words! You currently have two up-votes for multiple statements that are either so incorrect and/or unsubstantiated. Easy for one to say before hand but this is a "small percentage" matter you do not want to subject yourself to.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:49 PM ^
Oh yeah we have like seven months of research here so open and shut case, good work scientist
August 11th, 2020 at 12:11 PM ^
Great!
August 11th, 2020 at 12:11 PM ^
August 11th, 2020 at 12:25 PM ^
can this be written in language that can actually be parsed?
Twitter is a plague upon humanity.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:31 PM ^
You posted to the wrong account.
This isn't Twitter, Tweety bird.
August 11th, 2020 at 2:12 PM ^
I'll use the words of someone who replied to that tweet:
I urge you to provide a cogent medical argument, as opposed to refuting the worth of a single paper that does not apply to the population in question. This tweet is an example of what #medical experts shouldn't do.
The doctor of the original tweet didn't provide any sort of reasoning or context. He also makes the assumption that those medical experts are only using that paper as justification, which seems like a silly assumption to make considering he wasn't in the room where it happened.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:13 PM ^
Aside from death, permanent damage to the heart and/or lungs is a real concern. You may survive COVID-19, but still have life long damage to vital organs/systems. So much is unknown at this point and it really needs to be understood better.
I want football/sports as much as anyone... but this is going to be tough.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:19 PM ^
Isn’t myocarditis caused by any number of viral infections? It’s not unique to Covid I don’t believe. I think it’s been around forever and is a treatable condition. I would assume any player that tests positive for the virus would automatically be monitored by a doctor for this condition.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:26 PM ^
They are reaching for what they have left. Flatten the curve has become possibly prevent a treatable heart condition that may have nothing to do with Covid 19 for a person who is of age of majority and voluntarily assuming the risk to do something they want to do.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:29 PM ^
Fun fact: "voluntarily assuming the risk" doesn't appear to stop litigation. Also, the risk isn't isolated to the individual who "assumes the risk"
August 11th, 2020 at 12:56 PM ^
Yep. We are all part of a shadowy cabal that makes up stuff about COVID because of ... REASONS! They are very mysterious and diabolical reasons. Probably we want to steal your gum and restrict your liberty to drive on the left side of the road. Maybe we think you should wear pants in public. We are ingenious in our ability to create and control the virus and kill only old people while convincing people—through shifting rationales—that you all could also get sick. Cloth turns into a mind control device when shaped as a mask. (Fact!) Thank you for exposing us.
August 11th, 2020 at 1:27 PM ^
THIS. Do you think University presidents want to cancel the season and lose out on millions of dollars of revenue? Every time I hear people stir up this huge conspiracy theory, I can't help but shake my head. Same people that are anti-vaxxers or think covid tests are the government's excuse to implant microchips into their brain. Those who don't want to wear a mask, don't believe in the virus (which makes no sense) and want to have a football season without considering the consequences are selfish. Period.
People who feel like the goal posts are moving are not considering that for every 1st down we get, one of our teammates who doesn't believe in scoring touchdowns intentionally fumbles the ball or runs backwards. If the entire country could get together and have a strict quarantine for a month, this might be behind us.
August 11th, 2020 at 2:32 PM ^
ijohnb, the problem is that we haven't flattened the curve. If the curve were flat, we might be able to safely open our schools and play football.
The goalposts have never been moved. The goal is to flatten the curve. The curve has not been flattened, so we cannot do what we'd like to be able to do as it pertains to re-opening our economy, resuming activities, etc.
The White House's own guidelines for re-opening the economy have not been met.
Thus, here we are.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:34 PM ^
Yes, there are viruses that are not even in the SARS family of viruses (most common colds along with corona virus) that can cause myocarditis. We have a family friend who went on a Caribbean cruise and caught a virus called chikungunya, it totally infected his heart and destroyed his heart muscle where he had to get a heart transplant. Here is an interesting article on myocarditis https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/heart-failure-caused-by-an-infection
August 11th, 2020 at 12:35 PM ^
Football players can be on campus along with tens of thousands of other kids, and that's apparently acceptable, but playing football is not. All optics no logic.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:35 PM ^
Opening the campus is also stupid. That doesn't make canceling the season a bad decision.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:42 PM ^
If they are cancelling football they better close down the campus. But still young people are going to have their weekend parties and spread will continue no matter what the University does.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:45 PM ^
The key is to slow the spread. At no point has anyone demanded zero spread. Not sure why this is so impossible to understand; the arguments are just getting worse and worse.
August 11th, 2020 at 12:48 PM ^
Football players with continuous testing and monitoring will decrease the spread than being on a campus with no testing and monitoring. I don't see your point how cancelling the football season will slow the spread.