Bret Bielema wants to hire M's S&C coach Ben Herbert

Submitted by Decatur Jack on December 22nd, 2020 at 2:36 AM

For those who don't know, Ben Herbert was Bielema's S&C coach at Arkansas before Harbaugh hired him.

Link: https://www.si.com/college/illinois/football/bret-bielema-finishes-illini-staff-meetings-eyeing-michigan-strength-coach-ben-herbert

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 7:34 AM ^

After the last few S&C changes, I can honestly say I don't give a damn who the S&C guy is. It's all the same shit. 

This is coming from a former college S&C coach and a guy with a master's degree in exercise science.  I think the training principles are very similar and not overly impactful from one guy to the next.  But, the coach himself...his personality, his ability to motivate his players, etc. is very important.  I think this is probably true in many professions.  You need a baseline level of technical knowledge to do your job, but after that it's about the soft skills that make people good at what they do, or not good.

xtramelanin

December 22nd, 2020 at 7:39 AM ^

the best S & C guys are so wired that, without the aid of caffeine or other substances, they will vibrate even when seated or standing still.  kind of like a bird dog where some breeds are simply way more highly strung than others.   

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 9:39 AM ^

the best S & C guys are so wired that, without the aid of caffeine or other substances, they will vibrate even when seated or standing still.  kind of like a bird dog where some breeds are simply way more highly strung than others.   

I think that's true of some for sure.  It's probably also because some of the more well known guys like Scott Cochran embody that.  I also think guys that tend to gravitate towards football also tend to be more this way.  Football S&C coaches in general tend to be louder than say basketball or baseball S&C guys, particularly at P5 schools where football & basketball have their own S&C departments and then the other department does pretty much every other sport.  These guys specialize in football and often football position coaches are also loud.  It's a part of the football culture.  But, I don't think it's a requirement to be a good coach.  You have to have energy.  No one wants to be up at 6am to train.  And, lots of players would prefer to play than train, so a good coach motivates and energizes their players.  But there are lots of great S&C coaches that are not loud or overtly energetic.  They can deliver their message in other ways.

xtramelanin

December 22nd, 2020 at 10:19 AM ^

two modifications:

1.  some folks like being up at (or before) 0600 hrs and training

2.  i forgot to mention that you must shave your head to be a football S & C coach.  that is a job requirement, i'm sure of it...

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 11:08 AM ^

1.  some folks like being up at (or before) 0600 hrs and training

Not many college football players!

2.  i forgot to mention that you must shave your head to be a football S & C coach.  that is a job requirement, i'm sure of it...

There certainly is a lot of bald football S&C coaches.  They also tend to have some sort of facial hair as well.  It used to be goatees 20 years ago, now it's beards.  I've observed that as well.  I think part of it is if you look at head college football S&C coaches you see a lot of white, middle aged males, which is a population susceptible to hair loss.  I'd also guess that testosterone plays a part.  My hunch is many guys that like to lift and would be interested in that profession probably have a higher than average testosterone level.  And, while testosterone alone doesn't cause baldness, the ratio of testosterone to DHT, and the hair follicles sensitivity to it does.  So, those with higher testosterone are more likely to have more hair loss on average. 

MGoStrength

December 23rd, 2020 at 9:07 AM ^

The baldness is steroids and I’m not going to apologize, there’s no way it’s that ubiquitous and not. 

You're entitled to your opinion.  FWIW there are plenty of guys that take steroids and maintain their hairline.  And, roughly 30% of caucasian males have significant hair loss by age 30 and 50% by age 50.  So, lots of middle aged white guys have significant hair loss.  But, I'd guess the number of D1 strength coaches taking steroids is very very low.  FWIW I'm also more muscular than every strength coach I ever worked for/with.  That is the reason is I was never a head strength coach.  It a very demanding job without a ton of time for personal workouts.  I chose lifestyle over job.  I liked training more than coaching and wanted my 2 hrs every day to lift, which is why I'm teaching HS PE now and coaching my HS athletes instead.  So, my hunch is although at one point lifting and being big may have been a priority for head coaches, the demands of their job prevents that so it's unlikely many of them are juicing and overtly paying attention to their size.

Golden section

December 22nd, 2020 at 11:24 AM ^

While the science maybe consistent thee individuals are not. What makes the S&C so important is that he has access to the players all year round. No other coach develops the bond that the strength coach does, for that reason the psychological aspect is more acute. You have a diverse group of young men from a huge cross section of socioeconomic backgrounds with varied motivators.  

Chris Doyle of IOWA made 800k and was the highest paid assistant on the team.

There is a reason Scotty Cochran earns nearly 600k a year. He's not only good at what he does he gets through to his kids. They don't just learn how to workout they learn discipline. Alabama players think they are in better shape than their opponents. They believe they are going to dominate you in the 4th quarter. He tells guys their lives aren't going to be fun but when they're National Champions and 1st round draft pics driving cars with gull wings they'll appreciate it. 

I think Ben Herbert is good. He gets paid like one of the best and by all accounts does get through to his players, There is a reason Bielema wants him. He turned the Hogs into the Hogs. Can Illinois afford him? 

While I'll acquiesce to your level of knowledge but I don't full accept the science is universal. There seems to be differing views on nutrition, flexibility vs strength, timing of workouts, etc.

Should Herbert leave I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed to see former Stanford S&C coach, Shannon Turley take over that position.    

  

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 11:32 AM ^

While I'll acquiesce to your level of knowledge but I don't full accept the science is universal. There seems to be differing views on nutrition, flexibility vs strength, timing of workouts, etc.

Strength coaches don't generally get overly involved in nutrition, most programs have nutritionists on staff for that.  They get education on exercise nutrition, but that's more about pre & post workout rather than an overall nutritional approach.  The advice they are provide is basic stuff.  

There seems to be differing views on nutrition, flexibility vs strength, timing of workouts, etc.

There are, but it's disagreements over minutia.  There is vast acceptance on the things we know have dramatic impacts.  It's like arguing over if you should load creatine with 30mg a day for a week or take a month of 5mg doses to reach full saturation.  Or should you hang clean or clean from the floor.  Maybe one will be better than the other, but it will depend on the individual and in the end won't make much difference.  What will make a big difference is training hard, staying hydrated, and eating a balanced diet on a consistent basis.  Focus on the big stuff, not the little stuff.  Person is more important than the science when it comes to this stuff IMO once you've got a base line level of knowledge.

Golden section

December 28th, 2020 at 1:53 PM ^

If the baseline is so universal isn't the minutia where the difference is made? If everything is equal and you have guys that are the same and one guys is 2% stronger due to the S&C Coach, does 26 bench press reps as opposed to 24, now you migrate that 2% across the 100 guys on your team, won't that translate to more battles being won and ultimately more victories?   

Blue Vet

December 22nd, 2020 at 8:17 AM ^

MGoStrength, you make an important point about people skills.

Often fans prefer yellers & screamers; at least it looks like you're doing something. That approach can be effective. It can also be diva behavior, making sure everyone sees your sideline performance aiming to prove you're tough and in charge. (e.g. East Lansing.) It can even be weakness: if ineffective, a coach can at least yell like a famous coach, or act like a coach in a movie.

But what matters, as you point out, is how effective a coach is with people. Some players are inspired by getting screamed at. Others perform better with subtle pressure, or buy-in, feeling they're working with the coach — or boss or teacher.

Michigan basketball has had the benefit of that quieter style with Beilein, and now Howard. Though Howard can get heated, he doesn't turn the game into a spectacle with himself as its screaming star.

Go for two

December 22nd, 2020 at 8:24 AM ^

I know we were playing freshmen by the PSU game, but we really got pushed around on both lines this year. We rarely had a push off the line of scrimmage on offense and could never get a half yard on fourth down. We really need an upgrade in strength this off season

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 9:42 AM ^

We rarely had a push off the line of scrimmage on offense and could never get a half yard on fourth down. We really need an upgrade in strength this off season

I'm highly skeptical a new S&C coach can make a significant impact on this.  This is more about their age and experience level and level of development IMO.  When guys are young, even if they are big and strong, they have difficulty playing fast and hard because they are always thinking about their assignments.  Once they know what to do, then they can focus on doing it hard and aggressively.  They are just still learning.

Champeen

December 22nd, 2020 at 8:59 AM ^

I think this is very true.  However, Barwis seemed like a guy who could get anyone pumped.  I think his problem was he did more Yoga, Stretching and Jumping Jacks then, you know, actual lifting.  I remember our guys getting pushed around a ton during Barwis.  Maybe my memory is foggy.

GGV

December 22nd, 2020 at 9:46 AM ^

Well, HIT / one set to failure VS periodization training with "olympic" multi-joint movement / plyometrics are very different things. The former (what Michigan did Bo thru Carr) is appropriate for body-builders but tends to make people slow and weaker than they should be WRT muscle cross section size. Good for putting on mass, but that's about it.

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 11:20 AM ^

The former (what Michigan did Bo thru Carr) is appropriate for body-builders but tends to make people slow and weaker than they should be WRT muscle cross section size. 

Now, show me some research that indicates this might actually make a noticeable difference in the push of our offensive line.  You won't because it doesn't exist.  Yes, we know that different types of training produce different adaptations...SAID principle (Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands).  This is exercise science 101.  Every strength coach knows the difference between compound lifts (heavy multi joint lifts), power exercises (Oly lifts & plyos), accessory lifts (single joint exercises), stabilization exercises, flexibility exercises, etc.  Every strength coach also knows in order to maximize performance they need to use a blend of all of them and they need to suit it to the individuals needs based on a combination of training experience, strengths, weaknesses, and adaptability.  Some guys may lean more towards one philosophy than the other ie focusing on compound ground based lifts to maximize strength, focusing on power exercises to focus on rate of force production and explosive ability, focusing on mobility and stability work to keep the athletes healthy and prevent injuries etc., but they all do some level of all of them.  I don't personally believe that the science is at a level where we can definitively say that one focus (while still using all of them) is any better than another at something as specific as improving push on the offensive line, or even if it did improve that it wouldn't be to the detriment to another area such as agility in pass pro.  Anyways, that's a long way of saying I don't think the philosophy of the coach or their training style is as important as their ability to motivate their players and their organizational skills.  You need a baseline level of knowledge, after that it's more about the person.

GGV

December 22nd, 2020 at 1:00 PM ^

Right tool for the right job.

For OL, HIT might have some benefit if you're more interested in gaining mass and less interested in maximizing strength, speed or explosion. Every other position than OL, you want maximized strength, speed & explosion.

 Every strength coach knows the difference between compound lifts (heavy multi joint lifts), power exercises (Oly lifts & plyos), accessory lifts (single joint exercises), stabilization exercises, flexibility exercises, etc.

Except for Mike Gittleson & his progeny. 

HIT is why our skilled players got slower as they spent more time in the program back in the day.

Perhaps today we're at less risk of getting into such an inappropriate one-size-fits-all, unscientific approach to S&C. but we're not far removed either.  

 

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 2:27 PM ^

For OL, HIT might have some benefit if you're more interested in gaining mass and less interested in maximizing strength, speed or explosion. Every other position than OL, you want maximized strength, speed & explosion.

HIT is not the best way to improve cross sectional area of skeletal muscle tissue.  Brad Schoenfeld wrote a great paper on the mechanisms of hypertrophy and notes "Current research suggests that maximum gains in muscle hypertrophy are achieved by training regimens that produce significant metabolic stress while maintaining a moderate degree of muscle tension. A hypertrophy-oriented program should employ a repetition range of 6–12 reps per set with rest intervals of 60–90 seconds between sets. 

HIT style will achieve high levels of metabolic stress, but at the expense of muscle tension and total volume.  For size gains, going closer to failure but not quite for most sets, then resting, then doing that again for high volume and finishing with the last set of a body part to failure is a more effective way to achieve maximum hypertrophy.

HIT is why our skilled players got slower as they spent more time in the program back in the day.

What evidence do you have of this?

Perhaps today we're at less risk of getting into such an inappropriate one-size-fits-all, unscientific approach to S&C. but we're not far removed either.

Have you ever set foot into a Division 1 college S&C workout?  Have you ever met with a Division 1 S&C HC?  Everyone I've ever met has at least an undergraduate degree and many have master's degrees.  While it is true that coaching remains a "who you know" niche and most guys get jobs from recommendations from other people they worked for or just follow the football HC they worked with in the past.  But, people won't give recommendations unless they have worked with you first hand and unless they know that you know your stuff.  I'm not even in the industry any longer and have not been for 7 years now.  I have not worked in the college S&C industry since 2013.

GGV

December 22nd, 2020 at 3:02 PM ^

HIT is not the best way to improve cross sectional area of skeletal muscle tissue.

Agreed, yet Michigan kept using it for years after that was pretty well understood.

HIT style will achieve high levels of metabolic stress, but at the expense of muscle tension.

Hebbian rule and golgi tendon reflex IIRC?

What evidence do you have of this?

Michigan players in from the 80's, 90's & 00's. 

Kevin Tolbert is an example of perhaps an exception to your rule. While he has a BS, I'm not sure it's in kinesiology or a related area? 

 

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 5:51 PM ^

Hebbian rule and golgi tendon reflex IIRC?

Those are neural adaptations.  Neural adaptations will impact force production (strength) and rate of force production (power), but won't impact hypertrophy directly (building muscle).  It has the ability to impact hypertrophy indirectly by improving strength allowing one to train heavier and hence have more mechanical tension which will lead to more hypertrophy, but neural adaptations alone won't impact hypertrophy.  In order to impact tissue size you need a combination of mechanical tension (heavy weights), metabolic stress (pump), muscle damage (negatives, novel exercise, stretch, etc.).  Interval training gives you a high level of metabolic stress by training with lots of volume in a short amount of time.  However, as metabolites of exercise build it will increase fatigue and eventually prevent muscular contraction.  This will limit strength and how much volume you can do.  Interval training also tends to be done fast, which negates the eccentric (negative) portion of the lift which is more responsible for muscle damage and hypertrophy than the concentric.  So, neural training strategies such as plyometrics and Olympic lifts that utilize rate of force production and exciting the GTO through a rapid stretch will improve power, but not hypertrophy.  And, interval training will produce high levels of metabolic stress, but low levels of mechanical tension and muscle damage.

Michigan players in from the 80's, 90's & 00's. 

How would you know those players were the way they were due to their training style or any other number of factors?  Anecdotal evidence is OK in the absence of better forms of evidence.  But, even anecdotal evidence should be observed closely to at least make an attempt at teasing out other contributing variables.  But, there is no way a fan on the outside could make any educated guess about the abilities of the players and what those are or are not due to.  A good controlled study is needed to make better guesses at what's happening and teasing out all the contributing variables.

Here is a good video by Eric Helms where he discusses the pyramid of evidence when it comes to muscle and strength training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWmchPCyDvw

Mongo

December 22nd, 2020 at 10:05 AM ^

I agree with MGoStrength and not sure we have had that "workout warrior toughness" the last few years.  Our guys just don't seem as jacked and angry as other teams.  Maybe its the lack or 'roids in our program ?  But trying something new might be a jump start for this team.  

GGV

December 22nd, 2020 at 10:18 AM ^

Possibly, but there's so much going on from the land-of-make-believe read-option that allows opposing D's to sell out to stop the run once they realize the QB isn't going to keep, to over-complication that makes players think to much and appear slower /less aggressive than they really are as well as several recruiting busts that make our preferred press-man schemes unworkable, not to mention the drive/momentum killing gimmick & wildcat plays. I'm not sure we can say the S&C guy isn't motivating the team with any level of certainty. 

MGoStrength

December 22nd, 2020 at 11:26 AM ^

 Our guys just don't seem as jacked and angry as other teams. 

Probably more about the players we're recruiting.  It's been a criticism of UM's recruiting that we tend to focus on the more middle to upper middle class good kids with good educational backgrounds rather than the tough inner city kids.  That's probably a drastic oversimplification, but I do think there's some truth that we don't recruit as tough as kids as we used to and kids today are also a little softer as a whole than they were 20 years ago.  If a top 100 kid isn't play by his sophomore year, get's benched, has injury difficulty, or gets in his opinion too much constructive criticism, he's in the portal more often than not.

bronxblue

December 22nd, 2020 at 10:22 AM ^

Yeah, it seems like if you are reasonably up on the best practices and the literature (which I assume is true for any college-level S&C guy), it does come down to being a good motivator without being an asshole.  Of course, that might also be in the eye of the beholder - this guy already seems like a pain to deal with and yet Oregon seems to be doing fine.

Clarence Beeks

December 22nd, 2020 at 11:18 AM ^

It’s no different from leadership in any profession. At the end of the day, if you don’t have the people skills that will get your people to go beyond themselves to achieve goals (many will say “to run through a wall for that person”) you won’t be successful, no matter how many technical skills they have.

GoBlue419

December 22nd, 2020 at 3:17 AM ^

Who knows, could end up benefitting M. Get some fresh energy in the weight room, maybe a new strategy as far as developing athletes. 

Not saying Herbert is/was the problem, but a breath of fresh air could be good ?‍♂️