11 Warriors accepts Brian's Challenge...
I sincerely hope that Brian gives this a proper fisking.
http://www.elevenwarriors.com/2011/06/sweating-the-unknown#more
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| FINDINGS/ALLEGATIONS |
18 specific instances of violations by Reggie Bush or his family, including a house for his parents, a car (with new rims and a stereo), airfare, hotel stays, limo services, meals, car repairs, clothing, furniture and and appliances. 12 similar instances of violations out of basketball player OJ Mayo. Running backs coach Todd McNair was found to have known or should have known of Bush's activity and was also cited for lying during the investigation. Further violations by the women's tennis program and a failure of the athletic department's infrastructure when it came to oversight and policing. Together, these findings led to a charge of Lack of Institutional Control. |
An email trail that proved the head coach had knowledge of players forfeiting their eligibility, but did nothing to notify his superiors or compliance/enforcement staff. Additional athletes may have been involved in memorabilia-for-tattoos. Potential improper benefits in the form of car deals for football players. Terrelle Pryor allegedly received benefits in the form of free golf at a country club and is also alleged to have received $20,000-$40,000 in exchange for autographed memorabilia. |
| SELF-REPORTED | No | Yes |
| AGENT INVOLVEMENT | Yes | No |
| FATE OF HEAD COACH | Bolted early for the NFL. | Forced the resignation of a beloved coach with otherwise excellent reputation amongst peers. |
| LEVEL OF COOPERATION | None | Ohio State has reported all findings to the NCAA on their own and has stayed in contact with the organization to assist with the investigation. |
| TAUNTING | Hired habitual scofflaw Lane Kiffin to replace Pete Carroll. AD Mike Garrett claimed the NCAA report was "nothing but a lot of envy". | None, unless you wanted to count the fumbled presser on March 8th. Which you shouldn't. |
POPCORN!
The guy raises some good points, but the self reported part is kind of silly. It was self reported after they were outed by a beat reporter.
They did not even come close to self reporting.
I know it's an Ohio State blog... but seriously? They lose credibility arguing in such a one-sided manner. Yeah, they self-reported, if self-reporting constitutes having the lid blown off a systematic and long-standing culture of violations and then having to admit to it.
In the world of the NCAA, does self reporting supercede NCAA finding things, regardless of media hoopla?
OSU did self-report. Essential to that self-report was the acknowledgment of "major" violations, and self-imposed sanctions. OSU did that. USC never did that. End of issue. OSU has self-reported. They might do more self-reporting. USC never did.
Here is the Buckeyes' self-report:
http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/sports/stories/2011/03/09/SelfReport.pdf
And here is the Trojans' self-report:
Any questions? A self-report is a self-report. It might come after a reporter tells you about a situation. It might come after a player tells you about a situation. It might come after compliance reviews documents and makes a decision. It might come after a published report in a newspaper, or online. A slef-report might be prepared and delivered after all of those things. What is at issue, is that it is done, at a point in time before the NCAA investigates and makes a determination, on a Notice of Allegations.
goes on TV and says that the original "Tatgate" was just 5 players getting tattooes and that was the extent of the violations AND it was a singular event AFTER they "thoroughly" investigated the situation AND THEN everything else comes pouring out from the media - including 9 further current players involved in the tattoo parlour incidents - that is hardly any better than USC's situation.
You are right by a technicality. Congrats.
Technicality? OSU self reported violations by five members of their football team. That's a fact. They also self reported violations by their coach. Another fact.
Unless/until OSU has been notified of other infractions by the NCAA, they've self reported everything.
I think the point is how legitimate is their "self-reporting" when you have just been outed by the media?
It depends how accurate the media has been. Also, we didn't learn of their Tressel self report until what, a month after? I realize there's more to report, but this case is good enough that it doesn't need to rely on their self reporting, especially when the evidence is that they have.
This golf stuff is big enough that it'll cause another nuclear explosion, and all the better if Miller or another player was at Fine Line Ink.
I was speaking specifically about the Tressel cover up and the timing of their self-reporting vs. the timing of a damning article on the matter. I find it difficult to say OSU truly self-reported when the matter had already been brought to light by the media. Serious question, as I am a little unsure of the timing of the events, but the article came out, what, March 7 and OSU released their self-report on March 8? Just because they reported it before the NCAA had time to investigate the Yahoo report does not constitute a true instance of self-reporting, even if it technically is.
They had notified the NCAA of problems, but hadn't finished their formal report, which was released the day after the article. IIRC NCAA investigators were on campus in February helping them look into it.
Edit: Yea, the NCAA was on campus in Feb. http://a.espncdn.com/media/pdf/110310/Ohio_State_self_report.pdf
They self-reported the original Tat-5 incident.
They declared it isolated and that their investigation had turned up nothing else.
Man, I was really hoping the story would be bigger than that. Would have been nice to see Tressel have to sweat a little bit. Oh well, we'll see him and Pryor in November, hopefully a little rusty from Pryor's 5-game suspension. You know, since OSU did such a great job nipping this singular incident in the bud from the beginning and letting everyone know that it was just a singular incident with no precedent or expansion.
P.S. Technically they reported self-violations by their coach. It was really just a race to get that information out there first. That info was coming out no matter what.
I understand you are trying to be objective, but sometimes piling on a hated rival is justified and this is one of those times.
I am trying to be cautious, maybe a bit past objective. At the time I wrote that last night (before the latest Brooks article that came out this morning that might blow the lid off of their accuracy) OSU did self report those violations in an accurate way. The NCAA knew in Febuary about the Tressel violations, the March 8 report was their formal notice, which is the race you're talking about. In the post replying above is their original self reporting letter, where they detail the NCAA contact weeks before Yahoo broke the story.
Their skill at investigation is definitely nil, but so far they have self reported the violations they've found.
Do they actually believe that THE Ohio State University is cooperating with the NCAA and self-reporting all of their violations? Both schools have done everything they can to obstruct and fight the investigations into their programs. Contrast that to Michigan, who has done the NCAA's work for them in investigations into both their football and basketball programs.
What a bunch of naive morons.
Tressel didn't self report, he covered it up and was complicit in a solid decade of shenanegins. The administrations idea of self reporting was conducting an 11 day investigation, finding nothing further whatsoever, and then giving compliance the best possible review it could.
how can OSU say they self reported still ? When your already caught red handed is it really self reported ?
current players of the additional 22 discovered by the Dispatch at Tats for Treasures.
They're missing their AD's terrible job handling the situation (the internal audits and whatnot) and the fact that Tressel is almost certainly going to be found guilty of an unrelated 10.1 violation with Pryor and golfing.
Since OSU's self-investigation was so extensive and not just an attempted snow job.
OSU spent a good 15 minutes gathering their paperwork...
was spent looking for hte form to fill out.
Pretty sure every violation uncovered so far has been by the media, not ohio state, using the same information ohio has known about for years.
They throw up alot of non sequitor about USC's basketball and tennis programs (which has ZERO to do with punishment to the football program) to cover up the glaring fact that USC's case involved one athlete, and OSU's involves upwards of 25+ and a coverup.
LOIC is almost all about monitoring and processes in place within the compliance department. While USC having violations in several sports is really strong evidence that they had a crappy compliance department, OSU doesn't need any more sports to be in violation to get hammered for the same thing.
Exactly, it made the USC LOIC allegations very easy to prove in that their compliance department kept failing given multiple chances. OTOH if anything comes of these car allegations that OSU was warned on and completely failed to act (it is possible that their failure to launch an investigation could mean the same thing but I don't know the rules well enough to say either way) then that's a textbook LOIC violation.
Otherwise, you're definitely right that OSU is going to blame all of this on Tressel and drag him through the mud in hopes of keeping it off of the institution.
That's true, but it still has nothing to do with THE PENALTIES TO THE FOOTBALL PROGRAM, which is really the debate that's taking place. The fact that USC's compliance department was doing a bad job monitoring the tennis team did not go into USC getting a two-year bowl ban, and as another poster highlighted, there's still ridiculously sufficient evidence that OSU had LOIC.
And again, the main issue is going to go back to: ~20 athletes + multiple ignored/swept-under-the-rug warnings to the head football coach >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 athlete + one phone call to a running backs coach. It's not even close.
The truth lies in the middle. Are the tennis violations important to the football teams penalties directly, no. OTOH the fact that they existed provided some of the basis for LOIC violations that meant heavy penalties to the football team. Without the LOIC you probably still have their RB coach get a show-cause, probably some scholarship reductions but no bowl ban and not reductions to the tune of a 15 man class limit for three years.
But what I'm saying is, absent problems with USC's basketball and tennis programs, the Reggie Bush incident would STILL have registered as a LOIC situation. And likewise, even though there are "no" problems with OSU's basketball and tennis programs, OSU still easily meets the threshold for LOIC. That's why I think the whole argument is non sequitor.
11W is trying to paint the picture that USC's athletic department was a shambles (it was) and as a result, the NCAA made their football program pay for the sins of other programs (not so much), and that therefore OSU is going to get a lesser penalty, despite the fact that the problems in OSU's football program were far more endemic and widespread then USC's one player going rogue.
My impression at the time was that USC went from a "failure to monitor" charge for their admission policy at practices to a full blown LOIC because of their violations across the board. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think the other sports did impact the punishment USC got, though not as much as 11W is saying.
at USC, and I'm not sure OSU's tennis program is out of the woods. I've talked to a few alumni down here in Columbus who are also suspicious of the men's tennis team. In addition to grabbing another big ten title, they just recruited something like five of the top ten recruits. I'm not a tennis freak, but there is certainly suspicion. It could be nothing, or it could a larger pattern of incompetence by the compliance department.
I'm not sure how far back the NCAA will find the current violations stretch, but remember they were given three years probation in 2006 for their basketball team's violations.
Maybe one of our MGoAttorneys can speculate whether this would effect them in any way.
Well half of the findings/allegations listed for USC were for basketball and women's tennis, those for Ohio State are all for football to this point, not to mention they are still investigating.
They also failed to mention that Tressel not only failed to notify his superiors, but did notify one of the players in question's "mentor." They also forgot to mention that Tressel signed a form saying he had no knowledge, and therefore directly lying to the NCAA's face 3 times.
The fate of the head coach thing was a bit ridiculous, the wording in that is unbelievably skewed. Although yes Pete Carroll bolted for the NFL, everyone knew he would eventually and he took the best opportunity for himself.
And yeah, Ohio State taunted. "Let's give our coach that committed major violations a two game suspension. Yeah, that'll please the NCAA."
That post is ridiculous. Ohio State is no doubt in worse shape than USC.
tSIO didn't self report anything at all. They self reported the incidents regarding memorbilia at the tattoo shop. However, they only did so after the surface of the coverup was uncovered last December. Secondly, the self report was just for show to get the NCAA to declare the tat 5 eligible for the sugar bowl. tSIO never once self report the violations regarding the car dealing, Talbott, Sarniak or any number of other violations that are currently coming out. Anyone without scarlett colored glasses can say tsio's behavior towards NCAA investigators is not stonewalling and bating similar to USC. Smith has been anything but cooperative when it doesn't serve there own immediate interests.
They seem to completely gloss over the warnings OSU received about Talbott. Not only did OSU do nothing to take away his access to players for a couple years, they then did bar his access to players this past year. So did they have info on him and not act til it got to be too much? Or did they get info on him this past year that led to the ban, and if so, did they report that to the NCAA?
The NCAA will also have phone records matching a wittness account about notifying their coach of possible violations, no investigation taking place and yet another compliance form signed by said coach stating that he never received such information.
I think that's where the big deal is, not banning him from campus (though it certainly is suspicious, like you say).
Do we know why he was banned in 2010? If not that should be interesting when it comes out. I wonder if that is one of their hundreds of reported secondary violations...
No, other than we know he was a pretty shady guy. The golf stuff wouldn't be minor, as it involved benefits received. AFAIK anything involving discounted services/cash/getting into private clubs are all major violations. If OSU had just reported it, Pryor probably would have missed 1-2 games and repaid the money, they wouldn't be a program killer.
I saw that this morning and I'm glad our MGoBoard duly ripped it to shreds in the comments.
I dont know where he gets off thinking that they self reported anything
The tressel thing was outed by the media
Werent the original 5 tattoo guys outed by the media too?
And now SI is again suggesting that there are many, many more players involed. None of those have been self-reported.
The car thing. None of that was self reported
Nothing has been self reported except for the litany of secondary violations tOSU reports to make the NCAA believe that they have a properly functioning compliance department
doesn't a new SI article come out on Tuesday ? Or did I just see people writing about when the last one was coming out ?
That chart is the worst thing I have ever seen. He must literally have gone, item by item, and decided how to portray each point in the most pro-OSU way possible and was also quite creative about which items to include and which to leave out.
No it's worse than that, IMHO. He didn't plan it out; he thinks this is a legitimate, fair comparison. He's incapable of seeing how inconsistent and flawed his own logic is. It's embarrassing.
Optimistic at best. To the best of my knowledge osu didn't self report anything. They got caught red handed.... Lying to the NCAA + cover up + improper benefits + laughable, damning press conference + being smug pricks during the whole process = loss of institutional control.
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What is most ridiculous about the way he presented that material was that he forgot to include that St. Tressel signed the god damned compliance forms in September. It's not just an email trail...fcuking simpleton.
its the cover up not the crime (as the saying goes, but in this case its also the "crime")
Lying to the NCAA and only reporting it when you were forced to equals full cooperation?
Just like in the south, oversigning = passionate for football.