Race Relations in the Varrio - Race, Cops, and a Practical Suggestion or Two

Submitted by xtramelanin on June 6th, 2020 at 9:02 PM

Mates,

Taking a cue from the Covid diary which was informative, I will try to do the same here, but about the issue of police, racism and brutality.   I worked in law enforcement in Socal for over a decade before coming back home to Michigan.  A substantial amount of my time was dedicated to gang enforcement and included running a task force with a Lt, 2 sergeants and 20 investigators from various agencies.  For years my cases were gang homicides, drive-by shootings, beatings, stabbings, tortures, etc.  How many bodies do you want, how do you want them killed, and I probably have a true-life story that fits.

It is a sad fact that there are racist, brutal, dishonest cops.  There are also racist, brutal, dishonest coaches.   And grocery store clerks.  And judges, and bloggers, and stockbrokers, and teachers, and you get the picture.  The problem with police officers is that their occupation makes them uniquely capable of adversely affecting or ending someone’s life in the process.  We see the fruits of that from time to time, but right now it is front and center.

Beyond racism is the fact that there are bad cops (and fill in every other profession) who lie, cheat, agitate and put everybody in their circle in danger.   It is the human condition, and until the second coming the world will have those people.  I want to look into what cops do, the environment they work in, and maybe an idea or two about making things better.

I. Race Relations in the Varrio

In a word, race relations in the varrio can be complex.   Your typical gang usually comes from a particular neighborhood and reflects the ethnicity of that neighborhood.  Most gangs are of a single shade of melanin (or lack thereof), though some other melanin combinations are occasionally mixed in.   To the extent that these folks go to the joint (state prison) then they will segregate themselves to a severe degree by racial lines. Painting with a broad brush here, but in the joint the most common troubles are between brown and black factions.   And if there is a big dust-up, usually the brown and white gangs will align.   YMMV. 

In the streets the gang warfare is usually by neighborhood and that means, frequently, by race.  However, the vast majority of the crimes will be inflicted on groups who have the same melanin content as the perpetrator.   Of course, you have some cross-racial disputes that can be very, very bitter and lethal.  As an aside, even though the black and brown gangsters were physically more imposing and more numerous, the Asian gangsters were not messed with as much as one might think as they were, candidly, more intelligent and better armed.   I don’t have time/space to talk about bikers and skinheads. 

 II. Cops in the Varrio + Some Examples

One of the things about police work is that it is different than literally any other occupation.  It demands skills that span from social worker to soldier and everything in between.   Beyond that, working in your worst urban neighborhoods is vastly different than working (or living) in swanky suburbs like Bloomfield Hills, Shaker Heights, or Evanston.  The mentality of those you meet in the streets, the level of danger and of chaos, is so much different than what most people will ever experience in their lives that its kind of hard to explain.  I’m going to try with a few stories, some I tell when asked to talk on the topic but I’m doing my best to abbreviate them here.

  1.  K.R. and the Gangster Bar

One of my all-time favorite peace officers was a guy I’ll designate as K.R. KR was Hispanic and worked in the same city that he grew up in, though things had changed a lot.  He was as smart, gracious, and honest of a person as you would ever hope to meet in any occupation.  He was a gifted investigator with a knack of getting people to talk with him and also had an uncanny providence to have major crime happen right in front of his eyes – like shootings over the top of his car.  One night he and ‘Juice’ (NTJ) went into a gangster bar that was a cross between the Star Wars bar and the scene out of Animal House (“Hey, Otis!”).    They are looking for a guy who has a warrant.  They find him, and when he goes to stand up they see he has a gun.  At this point Juice broadcasts on the radio, “10-33”, which means ‘emergency radio traffic only’ – basically every law enforcement agency immediately shut up, no radio transmissions.   There is quiet ‘hiss’ of silence and then you hear Juice yell in rapid succession, “9-9-7!  9-9-7!’.   In the background of that call is an unholy roar.  The 9-9-7 call means, in essence, ‘We are dying. If you hear this call get here Code-3, lights and sirens, right now, we are dying’.   KR and Juice were literally being attacked by a bar-full of gangsters.  They were taking bottles, chairs, punches, kicks, and everything else.  The guy that KR was trying to get the gun from was going for KR’s gun and KR was getting hit so hard he was losing consciousness.  There’s lots more to the story, but the calvary arrived, K.R. lived and was taken to the hospital, and yeah, there were some bodies laid out.

  1.  Execution on the Highway

One of the last warrants I filed before I left was for a gangster that murdered a CHP officer on a vehicle stop.  Pulled over at about 0300 hrs for speeding, the gangster who was driving put his gun under his left arm pit, and as the CHP approached the vehicle the gangster shot him, with the bullet going under the officer’s Kevlar vest.  The gangster then got out, put the gun to the forehead of the wounded officer, and pulled the trigger.

  1.  Parolees in Paradise

Dealing with parolees is its own joy.  Understanding that I’m painting with a broad brush, the psychology of felons is really hard to describe without writing a book.  The thing most likely to be missing is logic and self-control.  However, at least in my day, there were some honest cons (slang for convicts, having been to the joint).  We went to hook one up one evening and there was a regular beat officer who rolled back-up to transport the arrestee.  The parolee was calm the whole time until the transport officer was getting involved.  The con called one of our guys over and asked that we take the cuffs off of him so he could kick that transport officer’s tail.  The con was getting $^t-talked by that other cop for no good reason.   The Sgt pulled that cop aside and he got a talking to, and we were sorely tempted to take the cuffs off.  In retrospect, that’s the type of cop that is trouble.  That’s the guy that is going to agitate, cause trouble, and resort to force too soon.  

Outside of Rodney King’s evening back in ’91, I really didn’t see what most would call brutality.  And to parse the King matter more closely than most like to, the use of force was justified at the start of that rodeo.   As providence would have it, Rodney’s next arrest came across my desk a couple years later.  Talk about a hot potato.

III. Some Suggestions – And What About Jerk Cops

Having sons, and with xtramelanin in our household, you know I’ve had ‘the talk’ with them.  That talk is given more than once and with greater specificity as they get older.   There is a heightened alert for many cops when pulling over people of color.   The race issue gets wrapped up with the safety issue and whether the cop is a jerk issue.  Remember too, the first rule of law enforcement is go home at the end of your shift which means to be alive at the end of your shift.  I will add that I have been to too many ‘cop’ funerals, guys I knew.   There is something that pulls at your heart beyond the normal funeral.   Anyway, a couple of suggestions. 

  1.  Body cams.  Body cams.  Body cams.

As simple as it sounds it is beyond belief how many problems this one provision solves.  No longer having a swearing contest.  No longer guessing who said what and when.  Certainty as to how much time a given activity took, what the witness or arrestee did, the route a chase took, etc.  They aren’t perfect but I have to tell you this one simple idea will solve about 99% of the issues in terms of what happened and who gets held accountable for what.  

Police officers train on the proper techniques to use force and to arrest.  More training isn’t a bad idea, but ultimately knowing that someone will be held accountable is the trump card of behavior modification.  I would add that Detroit PD is notorious for ‘losing’ the downloads of video from their scout cars.   That is what corruption looks like, more benign than a fight or a riot, but the effects can be horrendous. 

  1.  What To Do If You’re Pulled Over

I imagine every set of eyes that sees this has been pulled over, and many will be pulled over again.   Reading the earlier thread today we see not all encounters like that go fine and one thing that might be helpful is to be prepared.  Remember, the officer wants to go home at the end of the shift and you can help her/him do that and if you’re cool, you have a way better chance of not getting a ticket.  If you get pulled over:

  1.  Turn all music/sound off immediately
  2.   Pull over quickly and if it’s possible, in as safe of a place as you can find
  3.   All windows go down unless it’s a blizzard or downpour – ease of view
  4.   If you’ve got it quickly available have your insurance and registration at hand. In our rigs      we put both items in one envelope that is clearly marked that way. 
  5.   Drivers, keep your hands on steering wheel with palms facing you. 
  6.   Easy, relaxed movements and don’t reach for anything unless you let the officer know, ‘My    insurance is in the glove compartment, want me to get it now?’
  7.  If its dark turn your inside dome lights on once you have pulled over – again, put the officer   at ease.   
  8. IV. Conclusions

A couple of quick conclusions.  We all know that racism is bad and so is brutality.  Some cops are awesome.  Many are pretty good, but some are horrible.  They are the ones that never made the JV team and got swirlied in high school by some of you and they haven’t forgotten that indignity.  That said, police work can be unbelievably taxing, tense, difficult and require a host of skills that no other profession demands.  And its dangerous: precious few of you have been a one-man unit, at night, pulling over a car load of who knows what type of people, and if somebody starts acting up you might be at the wrong end of a 2,3,4-on-1 fight to the death.   Most cops deserve our respect.  The bad ones deserve to be fired and/or prosecuted.  Record, record, record. 

p.s.   I wrote this with the other board posts in mind and hope I am not adding fuel to any fires.  If so, take it down, I’m not offended and certainly don’t want to offend others.

XM

 

 

 

Comments

youfilthyanimal

June 6th, 2020 at 9:26 PM ^

Great post. Have you read any of Heather Mac Donald's work or Harvard's Roland G. Fryer Jr. report done in 2016? If so, any thoughts? 

xtramelanin

June 7th, 2020 at 7:00 AM ^

watched that CNN interview with heather mcdonald.  she seems to have a reasonable take on things and she did mention something i've been saying for decades: the biggest determinant about crime and criminal behavior is growing up in a fatherless home.  the statistics are overwhelming.  

youfilthyanimal

June 7th, 2020 at 9:11 PM ^

Yep, re fatherless homes. My eyes were opened several decades ago by this brilliant man along with the great Walter Williams and Larry Elder who have all written extensively on the break up of the black family among other things. Btw, Larry went to Michigan's law school 

youfilthyanimal

June 6th, 2020 at 9:48 PM ^

I also want to echo that police officers have a very difficult job and of the almost 700K there will always be bad apples.

 

And this idea that there is some sort of institutional racism in police departments need to explain how that was an issue with, for example, Freddie Gray back in 2015 when the President was black, the US AG was black, the Baltimore Mayor was Black, the City Council was mostly black, the head of the Police Department was Black, the assistant PD head was black, the St. Atty general was Black, 3 of the 6 cops charged were black, the judge who ruled twice not guilty was black. And Baltimore is the #1 per capita of black murders in the country. 

It is easy to point the finger at the police. It's more difficult to take a hard look at cultural issues within a community that are a bigger factor in driving crime and trying to deal with those. 

Maybe if the media focused on the number of black on black murders every weekend in Chicago, we'd actually look at the root problem within the black community instead of trying to blame all of their problems on racist cops and institutional racism. Sadly, we never will because it doesn't quite fit the political narrative that is en vogue now. 

Another thing. Police unions are like teacher unions. They protect the bad apples and make it very difficult to get rid of them. Real reform starts with the unions. 

Jon06

June 7th, 2020 at 7:26 AM ^

Nobody would accept bad pilots. Why should anyone accept bad cops?

The explanation to your observations in paragraph 2 is that empowering some black people is not a panacea against institutional racism.

crg

June 7th, 2020 at 7:59 AM ^

From the account that xm just gave here (and a few other mgobloggers lately that also have been on the force - though some of their posts are now gone due to threads being taken down), the impression seems to be that the system itself is not racist but currently operates in a way that people with racist tendencies/agendas (the "jerk" cops as xm calls them) can have it influence their actions too easily.  Maybe this is just semantics, but if it was truly "institutional racism" that suggests it would be pervasive regardless of who was on the force (good cop or jerk cop).  In that vein, systemic reform is needed to address checks against the bad actors present, but not because the system itself is inherently racist (and perhaps the percentage of bad actors is large enough that it just seems systemic in a lot of places... Hollywood included).

Jon06

June 9th, 2020 at 6:18 AM ^

Why do you privilege the account of officers over the accounts of the people who have been abused by them? Just asking (former) officers holds your conclusions hostage to a strong self-selection bias. I mean, of course officers think the system itself is ok. They wouldn't have participated in it otherwise.

crg

June 17th, 2020 at 1:56 PM ^

I'm not certain how you are construing this as "privileging" these accounts over any others.  I never made any claim to cast doubt or disparagement against anyone's claim of abuse (yet you contend that I have, directly or at least implicitly).  I will take all first-hand accounts at face value - including those of law enforcement professionals on this board.

My point is that, from what *those* specific accounts are saying, the biggest problems are coming from a relatively small number of "bad" officers.  As I already said earlier, perhaps the system needs to be changed to better weed out these bad actors and improve accountability, but that is not equivalent to saying the system is inherently racist and/or unfair (i.e. if all officers were perfect individuals, there would be no problem since the system does not compel them to do these things).

Jon06

June 18th, 2020 at 8:21 PM ^

Since the system is inherently run by flawed humans, your standard for the system being inherently unfair is probably too high. But just to be clear, what I meant by "privileging" those accounts is that you seem to have drawn a conclusion about the system (which you seem to repeat in this latest comment) by relying on the accounts of purported law enforcement professionals, when there are plenty of other voices suggesting other conclusions. So, again, why should we believe the LEOs over others (and in particular over the people who are afraid of them for what seem to be very good reasons)?

Mgotri

June 7th, 2020 at 8:44 AM ^

Bad pilots rarely have the opportunity to interact directly to show their racism. Or if you mean someone who is literally not good at piloting, those persons have an interest in being a good pilot as they will not only hurt others but also themselves by not being a good pilot. 

xtramelanin

June 9th, 2020 at 7:14 AM ^

jon your comment reflects a complete lack of understanding about what goes down in the streets. i'm sure you mean it in good faith, but if you had a 'strict liability' standard no cop is ever getting out of their car, they're never going to enforce anything and in fact,  you simply won't have cops.  you are asking for a high-conflict job to risk a law suit for every action they might ever take. 

i again pose the question to you:  what do you do for a living?  if you were a stockbroker and you had this same liability standard you're suggesting for cops then every time a client's stock went down then, bingo, you are on the hook for your recommendations and have to pay the client for their loss.  any psychologist/psychiatrist that had that standard, or any doctor, if their patients didn't get better or heaven forbid, they die, then bingo, sue the shrinks/doctors, their fault.  

Jon06

June 9th, 2020 at 11:25 AM ^

I am speaking as a citizen, not a member of profession X, Y, or Z, and I will not go down the road to delegitimizing the voices of non-police citizens. But to use your example, some kinds of financial advisors have fiduciary duties to their clients and can be held accountable for malfeasance. So you can take that idea, which seems to work fine (and should probably be strengthened in finance today, actually), and apply it to police.

The concept of strict liability is not limited to civil lawsuits, and needn't open anyone up to civil lawsuits, especially baseless ones. What I would suggest is that there should be a law that holds state actors strictly (criminally, not civilly) liable for all homicides of people in police custody. It would be interesting to debate what the punishment for that should be. I'd suggest, at a minimum, permanent loss of job and 1 year in a minimum security facility, to give people who kill people time to reflect on why it happened even if it was unavoidable or an accident, and to ensure that nobody has to endure the moral hardship of killing more than once just for the non-military job. But I could understand people who didn't want to go as far as mandatory incarceration.
 

xtramelanin

June 9th, 2020 at 12:31 PM ^

jon, you said 'strict liability'.  to use the common phrasing here, that doesn't mean what you think it means. it would mean any bad outcome of a citizen-police conduct would automatically make the cop, in your world, guilty of a crime.  that can't be what you mean because that's not rational.

another word you aren't using correctly:  homicide.  a homicide is an unlawful taking of another person's life.  sometimes cops kill and the shooting is righteous.  of course sometimes not, but we give them that job and hope they do it well.   have you ever been at a shoot out with the task of making it safe?  have you ever had the head set on with a hostage or multi-fire situation in a civilian area?  

also, you keep ducking my question about what your occupation is.  that says something about your frame of reference and lack of any real world concepts of what you are talking about.  if you rode around with us back in the day, your eyes would be opened to stuff you never thought possible.  crime in the varrio isn't like crime on TV.  criminals in the varrio don't act logically and they don't communicate like all of us swells on mgoblog.  so what're you going to do on your vehicle stop when they shoot at you?  what if a couple of guys rush you?  what if you are the back-up with KR in my original OP, what if you are Juice, what're you going to do then, flee and let KR die? 

 

Jon06

June 11th, 2020 at 8:50 AM ^

I know exactly what 'strict liability' means. And it is perfectly rational to have rules in place that eliminate terrible behavior, even if it means that good people are inconvenienced.

You are just dead wrong about what 'homicide' means, man. Here it is from the state of Georgia:

There are five determinations for manner of death:

  1. Homicide - the death was caused by the actions of another person.

    Note: Many people, including the media, confuse the terms homicide and murder. Murder is a criminal charge or the unlawful taking of a human life by another. After the medical examiner determines the manner of death to be a homicide, then law enforcement investigate that death to determine if there is probable cause to bring the criminal charge of murder against the person who caused the death. While all murders are homicides, not all homicides are murders. If a homeowner, fearful for his or her life, kills an intruder or a law enforcement officer kills someone in the line of duty, both are considered homicides but not necessarily murder.

  2. Natural - the death was from diseases or medical conditions such as cancer or heart attack.
  3. Accidental - an unintended death
  4. Suicide - a death that is intentionally self-inflicted
  5. Undetermined - there is little or no evidence to establish, with medical

So, homicide is just killing a person, and not all homicides are unlawful. (But all homicides in police custody should be unlawful, because there should be strict criminal liability for homicides in police custody.) How is it possible that you don't know this, if you were actually a cop? 

Let's agree that you'll stop trying to delegitimize people who disagree with you by pointing out they weren't cops, and I'll agree not to question your claim to have been a cop when you don't know what homicide means. I'm very civil, you see.

As for what I'd have done if I had been KR or Juice, I'd have taken my ass outside and waited for the guy to come out in the first place, instead of trying to arrest him in the middle of a bar full of armed criminals where I'm badly outnumbered, because I'm not a fucking idiot, and I don't need to think of myself as some kind of action movie hero to get an erection. But why KR and Juice weren't trained to avoid that situation to begin with is a pretty good question, if you ask me.

In your other scenarios, retreat and go get them later when a SWAT team can be assembled, like police in every other country would do. But if your point is that occasionally a cop will be killed in exchange for not killing hundreds of citizens, I agree. What I disagree with you about is whether the life of that one cop is worth the lives of hundreds of citizens. I do not. And if cops were real heroes, they wouldn't think so either.

pescadero

June 9th, 2020 at 2:08 PM ^

"i'm sure you mean it in good faith, but if you had a 'strict liability' standard no cop is ever getting out of their car,"

 

There is a thousand mile wide canyon of option between "qualified immunity" and "strict liability".

 

Strict liability means  a person is legally responsible for the consequences flowing from an activity even in the absence of fault or criminal intent.

Qualified immunity means a person is only  legally responsible for the consequences flowing from an activity if that activity has previously been adjudicated a violation of civil rights.

 

Right in between there you have an easy target - the default mens rea requirement that applies to non-"strict liability" crimes.

 

 

Jon06

June 11th, 2020 at 8:40 AM ^

I know what strict liability means, and I think it should be the standard. There is nothing unhealthy for society in state agents who kill people in their custody being automatically guilty of a crime. If you are at fault for causing an accident on the interstate in Michigan, for example, you can get a ticket for going too fast for conditions, even if the "conditions" involved something unexpected and you weren't otherwise speeding. That sucks if you get punished, but the punishment is usually just a safe driving class, so the punishment fits the crime. 

What is the correct punishment for the crime of killing someone in your custody? I think a one year timeout and not being a cop anymore is perfect. If you didn't mean to do it, you get time to reflect. If you did mean to do it, you don't just get away with it, even if there isn't enough evidence to convict you of a crime with harsher penalties.

leonidaswolverine

June 23rd, 2020 at 4:03 PM ^

We don't use strict liability for just about any crime in this country (and in the western world generally). A fundamental precept of justice is the requirement of criminal intent before the imposition of criminal liability. Strict liability would obliterate the distinction between deaths caused by accident or intention. A police car gets hit by a drunk driver and the suspect in the back seat dies - doesn't matter if the cop was driving negligently or responsibly, it's as much murder as if the cop shot the suspect himself. This seems atrociously unjust and seems like terrible policy as well.  

pescadero

June 9th, 2020 at 2:01 PM ^

Institutional racism (I prefer inherent bias, because I feel racism is explicit...) is subconscious, and permeates society. It has an effect on everyone in the society.

People of color have the same inherent societal biases as whites generally.

...and internalized bias is a thing.

 

The Mad Hatter

June 6th, 2020 at 10:48 PM ^

Thank you for posting this. I always appreciate your take on issues, even though we often disagree. You're my favorite MGoUnicorn.

One thing that I think is a major, mostly ignored issue, is the treatment of people in custody, and prison in particular. In my opinion it is far too dehumanizing in this country. If you treat a person like an animal, eventually they will act like one.

The Scandinavian countries are doing some interesting things with respect to incarceration and are seeing much less recidivism when inmates are released.

We need to shift our focus away from punishment and more towards rehabilitation. Because most prisoners are getting out eventually.

Thanks again for your perspective.

xtramelanin

June 6th, 2020 at 11:06 PM ^

thanks hatter.  i appreciate your take, too, and that's how things can get better.  quick to hear, slow to speak.  we all could do better. 

custodies are a challenge.  i would say in general changes are coming, but slowly, and not universally.  one thing though is that a level of cynicism must be exercised.  you'd be amazed at what some of them will spend their time scheming about.  if they spent that much time working as they do thinking up capers when they were out they wouldn't need a life of crime.  

EDIT:  i am afraid to ask, but i am curious what an 'mgounicorn' is. 

The Mad Hatter

June 7th, 2020 at 3:56 PM ^

Correct me if my memory is faulty, but you're a black, Republican, former LEO, attorney, and now farmer, living in northern lower Michigan, with a quiverfull of children. And didn't you play hockey too?!?!?!

To top it all off, you're a throughly decent guy.

I'll bet a dollar there isn't another man like you anywhere on earth.

 

tspoon

June 16th, 2020 at 3:40 PM ^

A couple of real-life observations to support some of your points Hatter, that have informed (developed) my point of view:

1) A white acquaintance who I knew through a summer job in the early 90s became a Pontiac police officer in the mid-90s. I noticed he had said a few racist things along the way ... not the type with the perpetual "blacks this, blacks that..." but enough to have noticed that something was off.  Sure enough, one day I see a story of how he had arrested and cuffed a younger black male (a teen, IIRC) and was (correctly) in massive hot water for having beat the perp up AFTER cuffing him and putting him in his cruiser. I was utterly shocked.  Never spoke with him to get "his side" of things, but not sure what he could have said that would have ever helped me understand.

2) A close friend did time in federal prison for an act of white collar crime. This is a bright guy who made a very bad decision (whether he deserved actual prison time for something like this is another discussion entirely). He came out of the joint having a lot more empathy for criminals, and an utter disdain for corrections officers. In his view, the majority (thought certainly not all) of the corrections employees were directly complicit in the high rates of recidivism we see in this country. To this day he scoffs at the notion that the prison system is structured or employed in a manner that could realistically be expected to be rehabilitative for the convicts.

 

J.

June 6th, 2020 at 11:38 PM ^

Good Lord, man, is there anything you haven't done?

I really only have two questions:

When does your biography come out, and who's playing you in the movie?  I'm thinking you need somebody with some serious screen presence -- like a younger Morgan Freeman.  Maybe Dennis Haysbert? :)

scanner blue

June 7th, 2020 at 9:30 AM ^

I think you’re reading xm wrong, you need a more unpresuming man. If xm was sitting next to you in the stadium or at a restaurant he would just seem like a nice guy. How  about a chiseled Tom Hanks with a few added inches in his shoes. (I’ll let xm cast his own wife, just make sure she’s always smiling). 

Oh ...nice write up mate. 

 

 

 

xtramelanin

June 6th, 2020 at 11:49 PM ^

i forgot two things in this thread, one illustrative, one humorous but maybe ill-timed.

1.  as close as hollywood can do, you can see what life was like if you watch the movie 'colors' with robert duvall and sean penn.  the broad themes are pretty accurate.  

2.  there is a funny video that chris rock did probably 15-20 yrs ago about dealing with cops.  now given today's goings-on it might be a little too close to the event but if you have a gallows humor, its pretty good.  i'm sure google can dish it up for you.  

awill76

June 7th, 2020 at 2:51 AM ^

Thanks for offering your insights into a lot of what's going on behind the scenes when a story like this hits the news.  It's so much more complicated than it can sometimes seem.  

Jon06

June 7th, 2020 at 7:24 AM ^

Remember too, the first rule of law enforcement is go home at the end of your shift which means to be alive at the end of your shift. 

This is the perhaps main problem with American policing. Why isn't the first rule of law enforcement not to kill? Police should be heroes. Heroes are selfless. This rule is the antithesis of heroism.

xtramelanin

June 7th, 2020 at 7:49 AM ^

jon, can you share with us what your occupation is?  do they shoot at you during work hours?  how many armed stand-offs or shoot outs have happened at your work?   i never met a cop that wanted to 'kill', though i certainly investigated and/or knew some that did take a life in the line of duty and as a very last measure.  i think you might think much differently if you were out there and it was 'go time', especially if your use of deadly force was going to help save others.  that's pretty heroic stuff.   

Mgotri

June 7th, 2020 at 9:02 AM ^

Not taking (edited because of autocorrect) either side, but I took his comment to be more about the prioritization of the “rules” rather than an attack on the heroism in police. 
If we add two more commonly associated words, protect, and serve we get this list as an example: 

Go home

Serve

Protect

If Protect is the first priority then it would be done at the expense of serve and go home. The line of when to use force would move to what best allows for protecting rather than self preservation. If go home is the priority then that line moves to what makes you feel safe.
 

Relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/1613/

 

Jon06

June 9th, 2020 at 6:27 AM ^

Yes. Thanks.

If you watch the viral video of Amy Cooper calling the police on the bird watcher, you can see that at some point, as she describes the situation she thinks she's in, she starts to panic. That kind of panic regularly functions as an excuse for police violence, since they only have to think there's a threat to be allowed to use force, even if they're wrong. (It also functions as a legal defense for shooting somebody who is not actually a threat in many states--another facet of systemic racism in the US.) That is why self-preservation, especially self-preservation that involves force on the basis of a fear-related standard, cannot be the primary goal of policing. (Insofar as police think it should be the primary goal, that just proves that they require more oversight.)

Jon06

June 9th, 2020 at 6:12 AM ^

I'm not going to engage in dialectics that function only to delegitimize criticisms of police from outside the police establishment itself.

Also, if it were true that police officers only used deadly force to save others as a very last measure, I might feel differently. But it is not true, as you know.

xtramelanin

June 9th, 2020 at 7:17 AM ^

jon, legitimate criticism is good and unfortunately well-deserved.  what isn't reconcilable though is the pie-in-the-sky notion of what police work is with the POV that we can sprinkle fairy dust on people, cops in particular, and they will suddenly be the most knowledgeable and wise people on the planet never making a mistake.  there is no utopia where that is possible.  

you train.  you record.  you learn and sometimes that means you learn through lawsuits. you get better.  

leonidaswolverine

June 23rd, 2020 at 4:06 PM ^

I think most of the people who are downvoting you are on board with this, at least certainly the more accountability prong. Unfortunately you don't seem to be squaring any of your prescriptions with your understanding of the fallibility of humans. You took issue with police officers wanting to survive lmao. 

youfilthyanimal

June 7th, 2020 at 9:04 AM ^

The police make roughly 10,000,000 arrests a year. Last year, just over 1000 (1004) people were shot and killed by the police. Also remember, there are those who get shot and die by cop suicide or copicide. If you ever take the time to look at many of these shooting, you'll see from the video the police tend to do everything they can not to shoot. 

According to the Washington Post, data through June 3 of last year, police in the line of duty fatally shot 10 unarmed black people and 20 unarmed white people in 2019.

The problem is that many people get inaccurate info and tend to focus on a few horrible incidents to draw a false conclusion. 

 

 

 

 

Cereal Killer

June 7th, 2020 at 7:53 PM ^

I think you need to consider that the problem of police brutality is much broader than those who are killed by police.   Hence XM's need to have that sad talk with his sons.  I have never, ever, not once, been pulled over when I wasn't doing anything wrong.   Never pulled over because I didn't look like I belonged in the neighborhood.  Of the several of my black friends I've talked to about this, who are all just normal dudes I know from college or law school, family guys, every single one has experienced this at least a half dozen times.  And they said they were scared shitless every single time, even though they weren't being apprehended for doing anything wrong.   

1WhoStayed

June 8th, 2020 at 11:21 AM ^

XM - Agree 100% with your key to improvement being bodycams. With near 0 tolerance for failures or lost video. (Your cam went out? Come into the shop for a replacement.

And video should be available real time (or recorded) to anyone who wants to view it. Forget FOIA BS.

This provides a segway to the DWB issue. Since EVERY moment is collected on video/audio - make it mandatory for police - for the record - to announce why someone is being stopped. It’ll take some training but dispatch will help condition the officers to make the announcement.

Surprised Google/Apple/Microsoft/etcaren’t promoting a solution like this. 
 

Technology - use it!