The Myth of Depth

Submitted by CRex on

Lack of depth, high variance offense, lots of reasons get tossed out for the condition of our team. So let’s take a moment to look at history:

Coach School B10 Record First Three Years
Jim Tressel tOSU 19-5
Brent Bielema WISC 15-9
Mark Dantonio MSU 13-11
Pat Fitzgerald NW 10-14
Kirk Ferentz Iowa 7-17 (ED: WOW)
Ron Zook ILL 7-17
Danny Hope Purdue 6-5 (Note: only in second year)
Tim Brewster MINN 6-18
Bill Lynch IN 5-19

I’m going to say we end this season 7-5. Giving us wins over Illinois and Purdue. I’m going to be generous because even with that generosity RR comes in at: 6-18 in three years of B10 play.

Guess where that puts you on that chart? Tied with Tim Brewster and ahead of Indiana by one win. Drop the Illinois game and you’re tied with Bill Lynch at the very bottom of the pile. High variance. Lack of depth. Every single B10 coach faced a myriad of problems and with the exception of Tressel they had an inferior brand and facilities. Yet every single coach, barring Lynch, did better in their first three years than RR. Fire Rich Rodriguez.

[Edit: Went back and did some more coaches.]

Coach School B10 Record First Three Years
Joe Tiller Purdue 16-8
John Cooper tOSU 13-9-2
Jon L Smith MSU 11-13
Randy Walker NW 9-15
Glenn Masson MINN 8-16
Ron Turner ILL 6-18
Barry Alvarez WISC 5-19
Terry Hoeppner IND 4-12 Only coached two seasons

I’m watching the Walking Dead right now, but I’ll try to figure up a response after that. As for maintaining Carr’s offense, I make no claim my actions were good ideas. I’m not an HC after all. Perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut.

I’ll simply say this. In my view I look at those two tables and I have a hard time seeing how everyone but Ron Turner, Terry Hoeppner, Tim Brewster, Bill Lynch and Barry Alvarez inherited programs in worse shape than Michigan in 2008. Alavrez is the only name on that list that went on to have success, so far as least.

Also I moved these charts to the top and you can stop reading here as some people have deemed my other ramblings worthless. Just let the data speak for itself. Or read on if you are so inclined....

Ladies and Gentleman of MGoBlog: We’ve all read the posts calling for patience. Talking about the youth of the team, how bare the cupboard is and the need to let RR build depth before we judge him. Today I am going to do my best to prove those claims are false. Well no false is too strong of a word, there is definitely a lot of truth to them. However I maintain they are overstated and the way in which RR has handled the depth he did inherit provides sufficient grounds to judge him.

Let’s begin with the offense. Our memories of 3 and 9 focus around two quarterbacks running around in terror. Both lacked the legs to be effective mobile quarterbacks and the arms to pass off as an efficient passing game. Threet and Sheridan were synonyms for Three and Out. We watched them run around, we shook our heads and said “Well you have to have the right personnel for RR’s offense to work.” This is definitely true considering the impact Tate and Denard have made. Yet some of us also found ourselves asking “Why aren’t we running Carr’s offense?”

Threet was basically the second coming of John Navarre. Projected to live and care free life on the depth chart. Navarre plugged into our offense and worked. Taking us to #4 in his senior year and our last win over tOSU. Today at ASU Threet has 137.56 passer rating, 62% completion rate and 14 TDs to 13 INTs. The situation RR came into was one where he had access to Carr on a daily basis and likely Carr’s playbook. Imagine the result of having spent his first offseason working with Threet and on Threet’s mechanics (Threet was prone to overthrowing at Michigan). Imagine for a moment an offense with Threet as a QB with a rating of say 100 and the ability to at least sustain a drive for a few minutes and let the defense rest.

That at least is an offense capable of scoring more than 10 against Toledo in the Big House (we lost 13-10). We didn’t get that though. We started “installing” the spread. 3 and 9 was the sacrifice RR needed to “install” an offense that was good for 5 and 7 the next year, with 4 of those wins coming against non B10 teams.

Also keep in mind no system has really involved so much as we relied on Tate’s abilities for 5 and 7 and Denard’s abilities this year. We don’t have a consistently dominant running game or even an offense that is really consistent in B10 play. We tend to go through periods of being flat followed by a scoring frenzy that starts in the 3rd or 4th quarter when Denard hits the “Extra Dilithium” button and becomes a one man army. So think about 3 and 9 and ask “Did we really gain anything from that sacrifice?”

Now on to defense. Our cupboard was not bear on the defense. When we faced Wisconsin we turned the ball over three times on our side of the field. Schafer’s defense comes out and holds Wisconsin, a ranked team, to two FGs and one blocked FG. That’s a good defense. Start three times on our side of the 50 and only let them get 6 points. Go back and watch those games. The defense was always solid until the offense went 3 and out five times in a row and left a worn out defense in poor field position. Then the hurting began.

Or until the Purdue game. The game when Richrod went to our 4-3 defense. A defense recruited by Lloyd Carr, a primarily 4-3 coach, and led by Schafer who ran the 4-3 at Stanford. A defense that had spent not just the previous summer but all its time at Michigan drilling for the 4-3. A defense that basically won the Wisconsin game for us with their saves and takeaways. Right before Purdue RR ordered a switch to a 3-3-5. Purdue put 48 on us.

Injuries, players leaving to go to the NFL or to go back home. Yes those things happen. However RR did not walk into a threadbare program. He definitely walked into an under strength program that had issues (DB recruiting comes to mind). Yet he proceeded to weaken it further. He made no attempts to keep the Carr systems in place while he brought his own players up to speed. Instead he burned everything to the ground and look at where we stand today.

Think about it. Year One he threw the Carr offense out the window and left two pocket style QBs to run in terror (well attempt to run from) LBs and DTs. He clearly had designs on a 3-3-5 defense from day one, as evidenced by the Purdue switch and numerous reports that Schafer felt RR was meddling too much with the defense. RR has no depth in the program because he opted to destroy it.

Think about the kind of player Carr would recruit for defense. A kid who looked good in the 4-3. This meant that kid likely played on a 4-3 in HS and possibly even further back. Yet RR walked in the week before the Purdue game, a week where he had 20 hours of allowable practice time and said “You know that defense you’ve been running since you were 14? Forget it we’re going 3-3-5.” End result, Purdue puts 48 on us. The same Purdue team that only managed 21 against Minnesota and MSU that year. Central held them to 32.

The “we lack depth” argument is not a free pass for RR. We didn’t have to lack depth. Schafer managed to field a functional defense. Lloyd Carr was just down the hall from RR and there was no reason the offense couldn’t have been tailored to play to the strengths of the Carr era recruits while the RR era recruits redshirted, learned his system and built depth. Instead we started doing a total conversion in year one and what little depth we had was forced into a system that it was ill suited for.

As it stands today rumors swirl about the fate of the DC. We have an offense that has an amazing athlete at QB, yet the offense goes flat for extended periods of time. On 10 points in the first half against PSU despite having a week to prepare and some of PSU’s better defensive players being out of the game. Last week against Iowa we scored 7 points in the first three quarters. A 21-point surge in the fourth made the final score look somewhat close, but 45 minutes and 7 points.

Comments

Space Coyote

October 31st, 2010 at 11:48 PM ^

And bring up some other interesting points.  Henne probably wasn't the best example, but I felt it was the most obvious ones.  Other examples include, primarily, offensive line and the defense.  The offensive line makes tons of adjustments in blocking, and I'm not saying that they haven't been trained to know a lot of different things, but I question whether or not they've actually learned why they are doing things so when they see things they can at least be functional in adjusting, at least until they get to the side line and get proper coaching, etc.

The defense has, in my mind, proven they haven't learned.  This is largely a function of youth, but also goes a lot on the defensive coaches and play calling as well.  In my mind, starting a redshirt sophomore that has learned things is better than playing a more physically gifted player that has only been trained things.  Things come faster and easier for those that have learned it, and it pretty much leaves any physical limitations in the wash and allows you to do more.

MI Expat NY

November 1st, 2010 at 11:06 AM ^

You do realize that we had 5 real drives in the first half, right?  The first was a 3 and out, which, ugh, Vincent Smith in the I formation.  The Second was an 80 yard drive for a touchdown, the third was when denard got hurt and a false start turned a 3rd and 5 into a 3rd and 10, the fourth saw a holding play on second and goal lead to a FG.  The fifth came after Gallon derped it out at the two.  Finally we had a drive that started with a minute on the clock.  

It's easy to look at 10 points and say, OMG, the offense struggggleeeed.  But when you look in context, they scored on 5 of 9 drives where time wasn't an issue.  That scoring rate would win most games, if our defense wasn't so bad.

Space Coyote

November 1st, 2010 at 4:50 PM ^

What your saying is all fine and dandy, but: the first drive was still a 3 and out regardless of play call and run by Smith; the second a touchdown (!); the third was still stopped; the forth was still stopped, regardless of flags, though we did get a field goal; and the fifth, regardless of starting field position, was a three and out.

So out of 5 drives in the first half that weren't dependent on time, Michigan went three and out twice, failed to convert in the red zone, and had penalties kill drives.  So basically what you've done is prove my point that this offense isn't exactly consistent.  

I didn't say the offense struggled the whole game, I said they were inconsistent, which you have proven to be the case.

kb

October 31st, 2010 at 10:54 PM ^

We're ranked highly in almost all offensive categories - the only reason we're not putting up gobs of points on the board like Oregon is because the defense can't get a turnover or a 3 and out  to save their life, which forces us to drive 80-90 yards for every score.

Space Coyote

October 31st, 2010 at 11:06 PM ^

But to clarify for you as well, I wasn't attempting to claim the offense wasn't doing well.  I pretty much just left out a part of the sentence.  What I meant to say is that people claiming that just because the offense is doing well it means RR should keep his job, and completely dismiss the defensive troubles, are out of their mind.  The defense's demise is just as much on RR as the offenses improvement.

The fact that the defense can't get other offenses off the field (which is a very valid point that I agree with, and which hurts Michigan's offense, especially consistency and momentum) is also on RR.

Space Coyote

November 1st, 2010 at 12:23 AM ^

And to be honest that is my view from in front of a TV.  I don't want to sound like a sheep following Brandon, but he has eyes and ears inside the program.  Obviously from our stand point, or at least mine, it doesn't appear that players are improving as they should, particularly on defense.  As I've said, it's been up to RR from day one to put the coaches in the position to improve the players.  It's hard to say "well give him 3 more years with another defensive staff and see if it works out", because then, well, what if it doesn't?

Does Rich have control of the whole program, can he cut ties with some people, these are things that need to be seen internally and clarified.  Right now I'm personally probably leaning against RR, but if they improve to win a couple more games (even if it's Purdue and a bowl game with improvement) I can't say I'd be extremely angry at keeping him.  If he needs Gibson as a recruiting coordinator, make him that and get someone who can coach up DBs, get someone to coach LBs, and let a DC have some control on defense.  I think one of the best things Carr did (this is debatable, but I believe it is best) is delegate responsibility to his staff and hold them accountable, then oversee that staff.  As a head coach you can't watch over everything like a hawk, you have to have trust in what your other coaches believe in and give guidance to them.  You also need the right staff.  

Over RR tenure I would have personally done things differently.  But a few things: 1) I've never been a head coach; 2) you can't be something you're not as a coach.  I'm not faulting RR for following what he believed was the right way to go about business, because I think he followed the way he thought was best.  I don't think that way was best though.  He would have been just as, if not more, unsuccessful if he would have done differently.

I guess that was a really long answer for "I don't know right now"

ShruteBeetFarms

October 31st, 2010 at 10:43 PM ^

Tressel and Bielema had smoother transitions. All Tressel had to do was call a conservative game and create a little toughness. John Cooper always recruited well.  Alvarez retired and left the program in good shape.

Aside from Joe Tiller, I can't think of a coach that had a major overhaul of an offense to deal with.

acnumber1

October 31st, 2010 at 10:49 PM ^

Stage 1 - Denial –

Stage 2 - Anger –

Stage 3 - Bargaining –

Stage 4 - Depression –

Stage 5 - Acceptance –

I go through the first three stages every game, the first four stages during pretty much every loss.  I'm sure most of us do.  Last night was the first time I reached stage five (in the early 3rd quarter) since 2008.  Somehow over the course of today I've regressed (there's a word!) to stage 3 more or less.  But CRex has reached stage 5.  Sadly, I think he's in a better place than I am for the duration of the season (and off-season). 

Sorry to hear you're where you are CRex, but kind of envy you expecting what I do for the coming Saturdays.  If it turns out we aren't 0-for-the-rest horrible, I'll welcome you back to stage 3, no questions asked.

ST3

October 31st, 2010 at 10:56 PM ^

you'll have to tell me how many true freshmen were starting on defense for those other coaches in year 3. Did RR kill the depth? or did injuries to Woolfolk and Martin kill the depth? Did Boobie's bad choices kill depth? and on and on. Two years and 8 games into the RR era, is too early to judge his system, so let's just all calm down.

CRex

October 31st, 2010 at 11:47 PM ^

IMHO you can't just go true freshman vs true freshman.  For example true freshman Forcier (pre inury) is a better QB than some of the upper class QBs at places like Minn and other weak B10 powers.  Soph Denard is definitely superior to a lot of upper class QBs.  Beside simply counting the number of freshman starters you have to weight it against the quality of the program.  The kind of people they're attracting and the quality of their system.  Of course what really killed us was we threw the entire system out with the RR hire and brought his system in en masse (with the exception of Jackson).  

I hate to resort to "But we're Michigan" argument, but in a sense it is true.  A lot of those other B10 schools live on 2 and 3 star recruit with the occasional 4 star.  So you have the trade off raw talent vs experience.  Look at the production JoePa got out of his young QB yesterday or the production Iowa gets out of a bunch of "gritty" 2 and 3 stars versus the production we get out of our young players. 

ST3

November 1st, 2010 at 12:05 AM ^

Since we're talking about college football, I like to think of this period of RichRod's employment like a college professor building up a case for tenure. That usually happens after 5 or 6 years, and there's a good reason for that. It takes ~5 years to get a Ph.D., at least in EE it does.  So when you're up for tenure, a large portion of your case is how well your first few students have done. RichRod's first class is still very raw. In grad school, your first two years are basically still classroom time (think "buried on the depth chart"). The third and fourth year, you are experimenting in the lab and writing papers - i.e., you are contributing to the professor's resume (or in RichRod's case, you should be starting.) By the fifth year, you are writing your thesis and trying to get a job (5th year seniors, auditioning for the NFL.) That's why I made the point about 2 years and 8 games.  That's just over half of the way to 5 years. And the fact that RichRod got a late start recruiting in the transition year really makes this year 2 of the RichRod era.

In reply to by Princetonwolverine

M-Wolverine

November 1st, 2010 at 2:36 AM ^

Wisconsin was the worst program in the Big Ten when he took over? Wisconsin battle Indiana for the bottom of the Conference with Indiana, and The Hoosiers had at least show some life lately. Everything Wisconsin is now is due to him.

burtcomma

November 1st, 2010 at 12:27 AM ^

Ok, you made your argument and case for firing RR.  At least it is a coherent argument based on some logic and data that you find convincing. and so do some others.

Now, if we fire RR per your advice, who do we hire, and how long does he have?  3 years same as RR?  If we go through another transition does this mean we become the next Notre Dame or Nebraska with a lost decade or so like we had in the early 1960's?  So far, we have two lost years (2008 and 2009) and one year still up for grabs (2010).

To quote Abraham Lincoln when he was told to fire General McClellan, and various congressmen said to replace him with anybody, "I don't have that luxury, as I have to have somebody..."    Ok, who is your somebody and what data or logic do you have that says he will produce better results by 2011 or 2012 than RR?

 

jblaze

November 1st, 2010 at 10:32 AM ^

I'll assume the next coach would be a pro style or let's call it an NFL style coach.

Offense: The linemen, WRs (Roundtree almost went to Purdue, Stonum & Hemingway are Carr guys), RBs (we have enough and enough variety in styles) can work in a pro style or an NFL spread (think Patriots, Colts, Saints). The QBs are the main issue, however, Tate was recruited heavily by teams like Penn State, so he could run that type of offense until Garnder is ready. Also, Denard could still be a QB in a shotgun spread offense (think old school Michael Vick). There isn't a reason he couldn't be, especially if he continues to improve his throwing mechanics.

Defense: We are a disaster, but are basically running a 4-3, when it suits us. The 3-3-5 could just as easily turn into a 3-4, especially with space eating Martin playing NT. Another coach really doesn't mes this up (I think we have the worst D in the country anyway).

Why would a new coach (e.g. Harbaugh) not find solid success, with a new offensive system?

MI Expat NY

November 1st, 2010 at 11:12 AM ^

Because everything you are saying is in the form of could.  Could Tate run a pro-style offense?  Sure, possibly, but we don't know.  Denard probably couldn't.  He has gotten better as a passer, but when he's forced to be a pure passer, he isn't that proficient.  A pro-style offense led by Denard would see everyone stacking the box.  Our RB's haven't been extremely effective, so I'm not sure why they would excel in a pro-style offense.  

So why would we do all that when we KNOW that the offensive system we have works, and will in all likelihood work better next year? 

The defensive problems, if they're going to be fixed, aren't going to be fixed any better with a new head coach then they will be if we have a new defensive coaching staff under Rodriguez.  

Wolverine In Exile

November 1st, 2010 at 9:01 AM ^

While CRex's follow-on analysis / reasoning I think is faulty, the baseline reasoning off of results is not. If RR goes 7-5 this year, he will have a record of Big Ten losing only  matched / succeeded by Turner, Alvarez, Lynch, and Brewster in the modern era. I was willing to give RR the beneift of the doubt, but the schedule broke how we hoped for at the beginning of Big Ten play, and we botched all attempts to kill the 09 meme. Injuries/depth aside, this is not a one year abberhation, this is a three year trend. RR gets to a bowl and wins, I'm willing to wait one more year, but it better be a damn good 2011.

Of the 11coaches with losing records after their 2nd/3rd year, only 5 I would consider "long term successes" (Alvarez, Ferentz, Walker, Fitzgerald, Mason) and 3 out of those 5 are successes only considering the context of their school (Walker & Fitz at periennially bad NW and Mason who had Minnesota good for Minnesota,but probably a disappointment at every other top half Big ten school). Fact is we're on the losing side of the odds right now w.r.t. projections of success.