WTKA Roundtable 8/23/2018: Ohio State Has No Integrity and It's Depressing
Image clipped from video published by USA Today Sports
Things discussed:
- Urban kept Zach Smith on staff for a decade after he learned Smith is a spousal abuser.
- Urban lied about meeting with Courtney in 2009.
- Urban lied about his knowledge of the 2015 warrant and continues to lie.
- Urban’s first action when the media finally caught up to his secret was to delete evidence.
- Gene Smith is happy to lie to protect Urban Meyer.
- A three-game suspension is total window dressing. It’s not even really 3 games, it’s just he can’t be on the sidelines for two of them, so he can do all the coaching but doesn’t get to do the things the public sees.
- The report outlined a clear and inarguable case for a guy to get fired, and the 12-hour session with the BoT and Meyer was all about how to staple a John Englerian reason to keep Meyer on to the back of it.
- Urban Meyer wouldn’t even apologize to Courtney Smith, though he apologized three times to “Buckeye Nation” and said he’s sorry they’re all going through this, because he believes he’s the only victim here.
- If you support Urban Meyer after this, send your kid to play for Urban Meyer after this, or make excuses for Urban Meyer after this, you lack integrity and that makes you a bad person.
- Ohio State, like Michigan State, has no shame, and it’s a shame.
- Ohio State University’s hard fought for academic reputation is now ruined.
- Hope Urban was worth it.
You can catch the entire episode on Michigan Insider's podcast stream on Podbean.
Segment two is here. Segment three is here.
THE USUAL LINKS
August 24th, 2018 at 8:05 AM ^
I, for one, hope it will not be worth it
August 24th, 2018 at 8:52 AM ^
If he ultimately doesn't end up getting fired (I've heard rumblings that it could still happen, although a much slimmer chance now), I think we'll see the results of how much it's not worth it on the recruiting trail. Over the next two or three years, we could see an impact on the talent they bring in. They'll still get good recruits, but not as much talent as they're used to getting. I don't think they will be able to recruit the state of Michigan as they have been recently.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:14 AM ^
This has already been discussed, and it has been hashed out with current recruits. It has all ready, and in the future, had absolutely zero effect. The expectation that this will have any affect on recruiting is nothing short of a pipe dream. Urban Meyer wins and gets kids to the NFL. That is the only thing that matters to recruits.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:48 AM ^
Yeah, I read that stuff too and that discussion was more about the current commits. As I said, 2 or 3 yrs down the road is when we'd see any difference, if at all. Commits that are already under his spell have a better chance of staying, but I'm talking kids that haven't committed yet. We'll see though.
August 24th, 2018 at 6:40 PM ^
We'll see though.
A school featuring a shower room where children were raped managed to pull in recruiting classes ranked #52, 43, 24, 15, 21, 12, and 5 in the years following their scandal.
I don't think this is going to affect recruiting one bit.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:50 AM ^
...and possibly getting a little money on the side...
August 24th, 2018 at 10:28 AM ^
I dunno. We've heard from like 7 parents. The ones who are going to have their decision affected by all this are kids least likely to speak out. They'll just vote with their feet, or however that phrase goes.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:39 AM ^
Except all current recruits and potential recruits all have said this doesn’t effect their recruitment...
This will have zero effect on their ability to bring in high quality players.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:33 AM ^
Yes, high quality football players but likely questionable personal backgrounds ... players that a program like UM wouldn't touch. That is how Urban built Florida into a NC program very quickly and then it imploded just as quickly because of its rotten culture. Maybe the same thing is under way at OSU and it is just a matter of time before all the lies become too much of a burden on him. I swear he has some sort of personality disorder and he can't distinguish right vs wrong. And now it sounds like he is on some sort of Meds to deal with the demons.
August 24th, 2018 at 11:58 AM ^
I think "personality disorder where he can't distinguish right from wrong" aptly describes a large chunk of their fanbase. How else can you explain the outpouring of irrational support and total ignorance of all the bad things he's done.
August 24th, 2018 at 11:58 AM ^
Totally agree.. basically the same (less than stellar) character athletes they've gotten for many years now
August 24th, 2018 at 8:30 AM ^
Of course they think it was worth it. I live in Columbus. The large majority of that fanbase *truly believes* that responses like this are just "sour grapes because [we] can't beat [them] on the field." They'll point to a National Championship and their recruiting and say, "Of course it was worth it."
That they almost always--without fail--default to making it about football is a total projection; that's all they'll ever care about because it's their identity.
The irony is that they all HATED him in '06 for running up the score in the NC game. To expect that fanbase to have suddenly sprouted a conscience is laughably short-sighted.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:40 AM ^
Par for the course with MSU too, which is truly shocking unfortunately. Considering hundreds of little girls lives were ruined, it'd be nice to have something other than ' BuT wE bEaT yOu LaSt YeAr SnOrF sNoRf'. Guess we shouldn't expect class from classless people.
August 24th, 2018 at 8:40 AM ^
Urbs sporting a cool tat
I wonder if he's going to facetime w Ryan Day on the sideline during the first two games. Or maybe they can set up a massive flatscreen on the sideline for video conferencing. Maybe they could even use the scoreboard video boards for him to call plays out to the whole stadium. I think that would be a fitting way to underscore the farce.
August 24th, 2018 at 8:52 AM ^
I asked this on another thread but thought I’d put it here.
Is there any non-OSU source that supports Urban Meyer and the decision/approach by OSU?
August 24th, 2018 at 8:56 AM ^
I'm sure you can find someone but we talked about this on the MGoPodcast we recorded last night and no, unless you count an "Every school does it" from a beat writer who covers Michigan State.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:03 AM ^
Thanks Seth. Just as I thought...really no support from anyone non-OSU.
When I talk to some of my OSU friends/family, they all come in with strong support of Urban Meyer/OSU (surprise, surprise). They try to turn it on me and say that I think the punishment is a sham because I'm a biased Michigan fan. Well OK then. So I like to point out that all non-biased folks think its sham. This isn't a Michigan vs OSU thing...this is an OSU vs everyone else thing.
August 24th, 2018 at 11:54 AM ^
Question for everyone on this side (that includes me). One thing I wonder about: does everyone believe completely in Courtney's integrity for the allegations? When I read that her own Mother spoke up for Smith, and a couple of other revelations, it made me question a bit.
August 24th, 2018 at 12:03 PM ^
You can't tell what to believe about Courtney because there was so much BS spewed out by the OSU haters, it kind of fogs a lot of the actual story (which was they wanted to have happen). I think the abuse story is highly credible given the whole group of Shelly Meyer emails/texts. And who knows, Courtney's mother may likely be part of "the cult" and was trying to protect the status quo.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:11 AM ^
has Trump weighed in on it yet?
August 24th, 2018 at 9:28 AM ^
he's pissed that Jeff Sessions isn't investigating the committee that was hired to investigate, i believe.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:03 AM ^
Unfortunately this is what our world has come to. We live in a 24 hour news cycle..... Unless some earth shattering bomb drops, something worse than what has already been uncovered, this will fade into obscurity.
It's sad, no....its a disgrace. There is no overwhelming outrage. In ohio its already old news and by next week will be forgotten. In the national sports news, its now a blip and may get a few more mentions, but will soon be gone as well.
What's the next shiny news object to attract all the attention?
The ohio state university has proven, once and for all, its a morally bankrupt institution and the only thing that matters is winning. meyer has been further exposed as the piece of shit, scumbag that most people suspected he was. Guess what, if he wins another NC in cbus, they'll celebrate and exalt him no differently than they did the last time.
Lets hope Karma rolls into cbus in November and enter's that disgusting toilet bowl stadium wearing winged helmets.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:22 AM ^
I would at least hope that every opposing team plays Rollins Band’s “Liar” every time OSU takes the field. It won’t impact Urban, because he is legitimately a sociopath, but hopefully it keeps reminding people what a scumbag he is.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:52 AM ^
In ohio its already old news and by next week will be forgotten.
Sad, but true. The overwhelming response I've seen here locally is "Ugh, this sucks, but I'm glad it's over with."
August 24th, 2018 at 9:09 AM ^
in a strange way, even though the crimes and disgrace at MSU are far, far worse, at least a couple of the trustees showed a bit of humanity and broke ranks to call out their bullshittery. i wonder if anyone in the OSU ranks will even HINT that they are embarrassed by this.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:39 AM ^
I hate to say this, but I honestly think both programs are banking on beating Michigan in football to take the heat off.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:33 AM ^
I just really hope UM would do the right thing in this situation and fire a Harbaugh or a Beilein if they did something like this. Can we say with 100% certainty they would though?
August 24th, 2018 at 9:38 AM ^
Gary Moeller?
August 24th, 2018 at 9:50 AM ^
Dude. Hoke played a guy with a concussion. Hoke and Brandon did the same thing OSU is doing - dumbass PR statements and embarrassingly transparent attempts at justification- and the world came crashing down on them FROM INSIDE and FAST. Fans boycotted games, they chanted Fire Brandon from the stands. Mgoblog went on a crusade. Schlissel stood up like a man of integrity and sent them packing.
So yes Michigan would fire them.
Although some argue it may have been different if Hoke was winning and was a coaching legend. Who knows, maybe.
August 24th, 2018 at 12:18 PM ^
I agree with all of this, but I'd like to add that the Morris situation is a far cry from what happened with Meyer, Smith, and OSU. Morris was hurt during a game and their was confusion on the sidelines about the extent of his injury. Somebody should have stopped him from going out there, but they didn't and that was terrible on their part. And while there were contradicting stories about whether or not he had a concussion in the moment, by Tuesday of that week Brandon and co. were admitting Morris had been injured and should not have been out there. It was a sign of dysfunction by the school and coaches, but it was handled relatively quickly.
Compare that to OSU, which spent the better part of a month straight-up lying to people about what was known regarding Smith's background, covering up for Meyer, and generally attacking the victim of domestic abuse. I have 0% faith that Michigan won't be caught in a similar situation at some point with a prominent coach, but thus far they have shown that even on the small-scale fuck-ups, they will respond appropriately rather quickly.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:52 AM ^
The reaction from the alumni here would be very different. Even if the administration were inclined to act in this way, the number of alums who would threaten to stop making donations would end those thoughts. An underrated difference between the two institutions is that football is a much bigger part of the OSU identity than it is at Michigan. Almost every alum I know takes far more pride in having graduated from a prestigious university than they do in the football program (not saying we don’t love the football team, but the academic side is more important)
August 24th, 2018 at 10:13 AM ^
We fired a very successful baseball coach in the 1980's, Bud Middaugh, for impropriety. We fired a very successful basketball coach in the 1990's, Steve Fisher, for impropriety. We fired a very successful football coach in the 1990's, Gary Moeller, for impropriety. We fired a mediocre AD and football coach in the 2010's, Brandon and Hoke, for impropriety.
We can speculate all we want about what Michigan would do if we were in OSU's shoes, but I think past history suggests we would respond differently and respond better. Maybe someday we'll demonstrate otherwise, but until that happens (and I hope such a day never comes), I think we can credibly take the moral high ground. Now we just have to win some games over these corrupt programs to really drive home how morally bankrupt they have allowed themselves to become.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:10 AM ^
Are you a UM alum? Culture here is different. This is not OSU or MSU. Coach will get fired. M cares about football but not like those other scumbags. There are academic standards here at M that rival top universities.
After yesterday, OSU has lost all cache academically speaking. IF I meet a fellow physician from OSU and they ever mention their medical school, I'll crap on them for going to a university that enables abuse. I can 100% say they will have no come back. Thats essentially the road they took. Football > any thing else at OSU. Had a great chance but they showed colors.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:13 AM ^
If Michigan had to come down hard and hobble one of its athletic programs, what would it have left? A top hospital, med school and med research arm. A Top 3 business school. A T10 law school. Astronauts. A far-reaching alumni network. I think U of M academics makes doing the right thing wrt the the AD a bit easier.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:48 PM ^
I did graduate school at U-M, so obviously i wasn't quite as connected as someone who was there for 4+ years.
I certainly like to believe that U-M would do the right thing, and I appreciate the examples you all have given. You will never hear me defend OSU, but I do believe it's a lot easier to fire pretty successful baseball coach or a poor football coach than one who has 3 national titles, 90% win percentage, blah blah blah.
I do believe the majority of alumni and fans would raise a massive campaign, but it's tough to tell for sure. I mean, we are the sort of people who parse football news in May to try to get some inkling of who the 3rd string right tackle might be.
August 24th, 2018 at 9:38 AM ^
An unwise man once said...
Just win, baby!
August 24th, 2018 at 9:59 AM ^
The hot take gets a little too hot around here:
- Ohio State University’s hard fought for academic reputation is now ruined.
The university's sordidness in putting $$$ before humans on the football field has nothing to do with academics. Once upon a time, professors ran universities. That time is long past. Empty suits run them. The same empty suit who oversees academics also "oversees" the AD. His reputation for not being an empty suit should now be ruined. But I don't see what that has to do with the academic reputation of the school.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:14 AM ^
Because a standard not upheld is a new standard set.
The types of people who care about these things -- the integrity of an institution as a whole -- will remember this very public acknowledgement that a winning coach comes before the well-being of students or faculty who are not cash cows. That the university is tacitly acknowledging that they will place your children under the influence and supervision of those who will abide domestic abuse or other crimes to win.
At Baylor, at Michigan State, and now Ohio State, we've seen that the oversight at the level of the university has been willing to invite the worst people onto campus for revenue. I wouldn't feel comfortable sending my daughter there to pursue her academic career.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:58 AM ^
You wouldn't be comfortable sending your daughter there because of worries about integrity and safety, not because of worries about academic matters. Right?
August 24th, 2018 at 10:20 AM ^
Fair points, Jon.
But it isn't just "suits" that run universities. And I am not at all certain that "professors" are the right people to run them, either.
What is "running" Michigan and Ohio State right now are their medical centers. So Michigan hired a physician/medical administrator in Dr. Mark Schissel. And OSU hired a physician/medical administrator in Dr. Michael Drake.
Remember the days, pre-bankruptcy, when General Motors was called, "A health maintenance organization on wheels"? We could call the University of Michigan and Ohio State "Medical centers with attached schools."
August 24th, 2018 at 12:12 PM ^
The last two presidents at OSU and Michigan weren't medical doctors, and my guess is the next couple won't necessarily be doctors either. Harvard's president has a background in law ad public policy, and they have a huge medical school. The president of Northwestern has a background in economics. The head of Cal is a lawyer.
Universities are large institutions run by an assortment of people. The fact that UM and OSU have heads with backgrounds in medicine feel more like a coincidence than some major shift in the school's priorities.
August 24th, 2018 at 12:44 PM ^
Schlissel is not really accurately described as a "physician/medical administrator." Yes, he is an MD, but he also has a PhD and has, I believe, spent far more time in biomedical research than in the practice of medicine. Yes, Michigan has a large health system, but it's BS to say that it "runs" the university or that Schlissel's main function is to administer the health system. He's much closer to a "professor" than a "physician."
August 25th, 2018 at 12:57 PM ^
I've been trying to follow the reactions outside of Ohio and Michigan, and in general they align with the reactions in Michigan: Ohio State's new president had an opportunity here to fire a guy who obviously violated any reasonable code of ethics for a university to a degree that you had to fire him, and who was such a boon to the university that firing him would undoubtedly had negative repercussions for its ability to fund raise.
In choosing to retain Meyer, Ohio State looks like an SEC school to Americans at large. Whoever might have had interest in going to school there from out of state because they're so famous from a football standpoint just learned without a shadow of a doubt that Ohio State is only a football school. I think they'd be surprised to discover OSU's current academic ranking is currently as high as it is, and that perception becomes reality.
Inside Ohio, Ohio State has always controlled the message, to the degree that many Ohioans have a Pravda response to it and go out of state because they're so sick of hearing Ohio State is great and does everything right even when it's obvious they don't. Independent thinkers in Ohio and out-of-staters are the high-value candidates in an applicant pool. Ohio State's reputation with them just took the biggest hit in our lifetimes.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:14 AM ^
Wow, Seth, you are a man after my own heart. No sugar coating on that summary posted above and absolutely spot-on.
Not only is OSU's reputation severely soiled, but Mary Jo White and D&P look like pawns who were just in it for the quick (2-week) $500k payment. I mean Urban deleted all the evidence and they didn't seek to retrieve it from the phone's computer server where it no doubt still resides. I mean that is OSU property and indirectly subject to public disclosure laws. Just shameful and horrible investigative work by a prominent law firm expert in such activities.
Whole thing is a sham.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:30 AM ^
Seth, why don't you and Brian sit down with Jason Priestas and Ramzy Nasrallah and discuss these issues?
I can hardly stand to listen to these insular fan-community discussions, be they on 11W or MGoBlog. Listening to grown men reassure each other on their feelings about how bad their rivals are; I don't get it.
If there is a clear, obvious case to be made that Meyer should have been fired, then a couple of smart, informed guys like Jason and Ramzy ought to agree with it, or most of it. But if the case isn't so clear or obvious, then your discussion must have glossed over the details.
Seth, what am I not getting here?
August 24th, 2018 at 10:38 AM ^
I would love to hear a discussion between Ross Fulton and Seth on this, but what would they have to say? Have Ross and Ramzy come out and said the suspension is appropriate?
Edited to add: Ramzy's article is gross, and is mostly focused on the fact that OSU's wide receivers are better off without Smith (true) and how OSU can get its reputation back (by winning, which is also, unfortunately, true).
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-football/2018-season-preview/2018/08/95425/the-situational-reputation
August 24th, 2018 at 10:50 AM ^
Ross Fulton is great! UM grad; 11W staff-alumnus. But Ross is no longer with 11W, right? (Ross is from Upper Arlington, so his official connection to The Ohio State University is only slightly more direct than IU-graduate Ramzy Nasrallah.)
btw, Here is what Ramzy's take was the day after the decision.
August 24th, 2018 at 10:56 AM ^
Yeah, Ross is with a different site now, but he's the 11W analyst I like most. :)
Ramzy's article is pretty weak, but some of his tweets are fairly aggressive, for example:
Urban kept finding reasons to kick the can down the road. Put feelings for Earle above everything from the program's interests to Courtney Smith's safety. Waiting for a specific document to trigger a response is at kindest an administrator's play & at worst how a coward operates
https://twitter.com/ramzy/status/1032613467684057088
Every page of the investigative report, which is as thorough as it is incriminating, should have ALL THIS FOR ZACH SMITH printed at the top in 36pt
Read it, slept on it. Lenient. They were lenient as hell.
https://twitter.com/ramzy/status/1032586373931429888
Ramzy was at his toughest three years ago, when Baylor was in the news
But every time we consider the value of a man first when determining how he should be punished for violating a woman, we become those goons. And we should be better than that.
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/college-football/2016/06/71209/that-again
August 24th, 2018 at 11:12 AM ^
And don't forget; Ramzy called Brendan Gibbons a "rapist," then doubled down on it, and then kicked me off their site when (rather respectfully) I refuted him on serious grounds and then joked with some of his site's members about his take on it.
Ramzy is a world-class moralizing scold, except when it comes to winning Ohio State football coaches. This really is the moment, for him and his site.
btw; Ramzy has an MGoBlog account and I am glad that he does.
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