Does Harbaugh not like throwing/checking to Running Backs?
I saw this posted on Twitter, found it interesting and thought the board might also:
@SigmundBloom @DougKyedNESN Harbaugh had a bizarre aversion to throwing to running backs. Check Gore's rec numbers pic.twitter.com/pVeM4DKVOQ
— Grant M P (@grantmp1) February 10, 2015
February 10th, 2015 at 1:02 PM ^
No need to with manball.
February 10th, 2015 at 4:28 PM ^
With a young/inexperienced QB I wouldn't mind seeing our QB dump it off to the RBs a couple times per game. The other options are to wait too long in the pocket and risk a sack or to force a throw to a covered WR/TE, which from last year we saw hurt us time and time again. I'm all for tossing it to the RBs and getting some positive yardage.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:04 PM ^
If he does and it becomes a "problem," Harbaugh will figure out a way to exploit it.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:07 PM ^
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February 10th, 2015 at 1:54 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 7:48 PM ^
SPIDER 2 Y BANANA
Yeah
February 10th, 2015 at 11:19 PM ^
Great find, I think we got Joe Kerridge a TD in The Game last year on old Spider 3 Y Banana.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:09 PM ^
Nothing even approaching UCLA's aversion to throwing to tight ends.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:43 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 1:09 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 1:10 PM ^
Gore caught 11 passes. Hyde caught 12. Alfonso Smith caught 3. Bruce Ellington caught 6. Fullback Bruce Miller caught 18.
That's 32 catches by running backs, plus 18 by the fullback. So they completed passes to running backs about 3 times a game.
Remember that in a play-action-heavy offense, the running back is usually the guy sucking up defenders, so he's not going to be targeted a ton. This isn't a split-back West Coast offense like the 49ers used to run where Roger Craig ran all kinds of flare routes and angle routes.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:13 PM ^
Gore caught 23 passes in college at Miami (YTM). His numbers don't seem that low when you think about him getting 4 receptions a game some years. It could be that he didn't have the hands to warrant passing to him.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:28 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 1:29 PM ^
I won't get into too much depth as I'm still looking at film and want to keep some info for my writings, but Harbaugh focuses more heavily on play action and typically the first read in the progressions on a lot of his concepts is the bench route to the TE or slot or arrow routes to the FB (this isn't a split back WCO, it's an I-form, so the FB will be the main source of RB targets, not the TB). These are often quick, easy throws with the intention of getting the ball in space and stretching the field laterally where the intention of the TB is to sell the run fake. Therefore, it is rare that the play progresses to getting to the TB.
From what I've seen, on most standard pass plays, and even hard sell PA plays, the first responsibility for the TB is to block, but typically he has defined routes if he doesn't have a defender show (either a flat or a middle-field curl route) that work within the pass concept architecture. For what it's worth, a lot of the scramble paths from the QB are set up because the RB routes (which helped Kaep with his scrambles, as well as Luck and other QBs under Harbaugh) by pulling the defense away from an area of the field. A major responsibility of the QB is understanding the RBs routes so that he can scramble to the right area.
Harbaugh does run some slow screens, but I didn't see it work very successfully, so it's likely rare (once a game type thing). He has shown some propensity of running the Texas concept from gun though,s o that's an area where a sure-handed RB (not something necessarily on Michigan's roster) can play a role (this was used more in 2008 than 2009, different QB, and Luck was still young and clearly uncomfortable with some throws over the middle is RS FR year in 2009).
February 10th, 2015 at 1:41 PM ^
Ty Isaac is a guy with much better hands and route running ability than the guys we saw last year. If he plays a big role in the offense next year I'd expect a good chunk of his production to come out of the passing game.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:50 PM ^
Thanks for clarifying, especially on the differences b/w the split-back and I-form versions of the West Coast offense.
The emphasis on the fullback in the passing game is one thing that has always intrigued/puzzled me about the WCO; I remember Tom Rathman catching tons of passes as the 49ers' fullback in the late 80s. On one hand, it seems a great way to attack defenses who are more focused on other skill players and consider the FB an afterthought in the passing game. On the other hand, if the intention is to have, as SC puts it, "quick, easy throws with the intention of getting the ball in space and stretching the field laterally," wouldn't you rather have the more explosive and elusive athlete (i.e., the tailback), getting those passes in space rather than a lumbering FB? That might be the difference b/w a nice 5-10 yard gain and a nicer 15-25+ yard gain... Just curious why this I-form version of the WC offense places such emphasis on making probably the least athletic/elusive skill player on the field such a focus of the passing game. If you've got a Rathman or Moose Johnston, OK, but those guys are hard to find.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:56 PM ^
The running schemes used today (lots of zone, power, etc.) have to be run out of I-formation or Pistol formations, so I think that's one major differency. With the old formations that you saw the Raiders, 49ers, etc. use with split backs, the pre-snap positioning of the tailback/fullback made them more of a threat to get the edge on swing passes. If you think about the Pistol formation, the tailback is now 6 yards deep and directly in the middle of the field, which means he's going to be too deep and take too long to get the edge to be much of a threat unless it's a screen or some kind of delayed pass route. By formation necessity, the fullback becomes the passing target because he can sneak out of the backfield a little bit easier and get leverage on defensive ends/linebackers. So I think there are positives and negatives to each kind of offense. Obviously, with all the records being set these days, a lot of people would probably say that the current schemes are superior to those of the '80's and '90's.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:05 PM ^
In a Power O scheme, the FB is a kick block of the defensive EMOL. He's essentially at the edge or outside the tackle box by the time the RB and QB are at their mesh point. Because of that, he can easily slip that block and the timing is such that the QB can fake the handoff and quickly throw to the wide open FB in the flat.
In an inside zone game, it's the same thing just the FB is blocking back to handle the backside EMOL. Again, this block can easily be slipped and the throw can be made on time such that the player isn't accounted for.
In both of these plays, the path of the RBs and QB is the same for the play action pass game or for the run play the play action is immitating. From that perspective, there aren't specific keys for the defense. Meanwhile, the defense is focused on stopping the TB and the run play, so they are surrounding him, or keeping proper angles to him. The same isn't necessarily said for the FB, who they are trying to prevent being blocked by (so they are actively trying to not defend him in that way).
You will see a lot of teams leak the TB off of PA in zone stretch based schemes, or leak out the backfield when they are offset (see the "Texas Concept I posted above"), but the focus being mostly interior runs makes the path and timing to the flat a bit unnatural for the TB in many WCO. FWIW, a FB in a WCO is typically preferred to be a bit more athletic (think BJ Askew rather than Kevin Dudley). That's to make them a bit more of a threat in space. But realistically, the offense isn't getting 15-25 yard gains. What they are doing is staying ahead of the chains (these passes are, for all practical purposes, extensions of the run game) and keeping the offense in situations where they can keep the defense honest and move the chains. It's less about explosiveness than it is about consistency, and the path the FB takes into their routes is the same as their path to run block, making it difficult for LBs and Safeties to identify when the offense is running one or the other (and making them play both the run and pass game honestly at all times).
February 10th, 2015 at 2:19 PM ^
offensive preoccupation with a quarterback style and traits that he most admires for that position begins with his own evolution as a player and the offense he managed under Bo and progresses with his technical understanding of the short passing game and using targets that most defenses don't dwell on stopping.
At Stanford and with the 49ers, tight ends are the go-to receivers. Go back and watch the tribute film of Harbaugh as a Wolverine and watch how many TD passes he throws to his rangy tight end targets and then to slot backs or guys lined up in the slot. And his choice of qb types most resemble himself at the position in college. He likes tall guys with mobility who can extend plays with their feet and smart choices throwing the ball.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:52 PM ^
Most coaches like short, immobile QBs who make slow and poor choices. Our last few QB had the slow and poor choices down, but Devin was too tall and fast, Denard had the poor choices down and was short but all that was ruined with his speed.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:12 PM ^
As an ensemble group, I think they total more than a lot of teams, theri number 5 reciever by receptions this year was a FB
February 10th, 2015 at 1:21 PM ^
like passes to the tailback out in the flat?
February 10th, 2015 at 1:22 PM ^
He likes it, but he doesn't like like it.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:24 PM ^
MIght be more of a "doing what fits Gores skill set" thing more than a "Harbaugh doesnt throw to backs" thing.
Harbaugh does what works with the assets he has.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:29 PM ^
Depending on the year, Gore was targeted 2-3 times less often than he had been before. That doesn't promise that Harbaugh doesn't like the play. It could just as easily mean that Harbaugh does like other plays disproportionately more. A reasonable follow-up is whether this trend existed at Stanford and USD. And a reasonable follow-up follow-up is whether Harbaugh would have ever been well served to feature it at a time he stubbornly resisted. Minus those, this remains an unbizarre tendency and likely a product of SF-specific circumstance.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:37 PM ^
Harbaugh's last year there Stepfan Taylor caught 28 passes (tied for 3rd on the team). The year before Toby Gerhart only caught 11 passes (because he was carrying the ball almost every play).
This seems more like a playing to skillset issue and maybe lightening the load for Gore as he gets older so he can still run the ball effecitvely.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:33 PM ^
Norfleet: 15 catches, 111 yards, 0 TDs
Kerridge: 6 catches, 53 yards, 0 TDs
Smith: 3 catches, 26 yards, 0 TDs
Green: 2 catches, 26 yards, 0 TDs
That's 26 catches, 216 yards, 0 TDs
So either our guys weren't asked to do much pass catching last year because of scheme, no time to pass to them or they didn't have very good hands. Can a film guru answer that for me? TIA
February 10th, 2015 at 1:41 PM ^
They weren't asked to catch many passes. A lot of Norfleet's catches either came out of the slot or from him motioning/running routes out of the backfield, but he wasn't really a running back, so I wouldn't really include him here.
Also, I don't think it does much good to put a lumbering guy like Kerridge or Smith out in space. Those aren't the types of guys you want to throw a ton of passes to. Kerridge can help you out on bootlegs and such, but he's not going to break a ton of tackles and they're not going to make you miss.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:54 PM ^
I included Norfleet because he was 5th on the team with 9 rushing attempts (excluding QBs). I can almost guarantee none of those were in the I-formation, mostly sweeps I would assume but he was still handed the ball.
Does Ty Isaac pose more of a pass catching threat? I remember guys like Chris Howard and Chris Perry who were really good out of the backfield, it would be great to have that weapon again
February 10th, 2015 at 1:59 PM ^
Yes, Isaac is a very good receiver. In fact, there were some who thought he would be best suited by playing wide receiver or H-back coming out of high school, although I don't see him as a WR at all and think he should touch the ball more than an H-back. I think Isaac is going to be the best receiving tailback we've seen in a long time, although obviously there are some questions about how Harbaugh's offense will be run, whether he'll throw to the running backs much, etc.
February 10th, 2015 at 3:35 PM ^
You're my guy. Don't let the haters bring you down.
February 10th, 2015 at 5:44 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 1:48 PM ^
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February 10th, 2015 at 1:49 PM ^
And I heard he does not like mushrooms on his pizza also! Let's wait and see what he and his OC do this year with the talent he has here.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:49 PM ^
i could go for some none pizza left beef right now.
February 10th, 2015 at 3:08 PM ^
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February 10th, 2015 at 2:53 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 7:00 PM ^
Damn you, EGJ! Bringing up pizza while my mind is on Michigan just makes me think of and miss Cottage Inn. Their late night special was incredible.
This is not to take away from the slices at Backroom, but, man, nothing beat Cottage Inn.
February 10th, 2015 at 1:53 PM ^
I have no data to back this up but I also feel like a running QB who is willing to scramble is less likely to use a rb checkdown.
Also Gore isn't exactly the type of rb you'd really want to be running screens for.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:49 PM ^
I can't believe this until i see the data.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:09 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 2:11 PM ^
Get ahold of Warren Sapp or Greg Anthony. They can help you out.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:47 PM ^
they arent my type.
February 10th, 2015 at 2:32 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 2:48 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 4:03 PM ^
...not many completions to Toby Gerhart (a total of 24 in his last two seasons) - but that was also true prior to Harbaugh becoming coach. Stepfan Taylor did catch 28 passes in Harbaugh's final year at Stanford.
February 10th, 2015 at 4:43 PM ^
cant possibly target backs any less than hoke / borges in pass game.
im sure theyll call screens but they dont really have any backs on roster to prevent much of mismatch in pass game - unless the true frosh plays (maybe), the rest are guys who not only struggled in pass pro but are not the greatest threats on standard arrow or wheel routes. interesting question though.
forgot about issac, should be much better option than green or smith
February 10th, 2015 at 5:16 PM ^
February 10th, 2015 at 6:32 PM ^
I also heard Harbaugh insists on strict white space between all food groups on his dinner plate so none of it touches each other.