MSU v. Michigan: Recruiting & Development -- Why do we suck?
Watching the game Saturday was painful, embarassing, and downright demoralizing. All game long we watched Langford, Cook, et. al., shred us, and hear the commentators say, "his only scholarship offers were from school like Indiana, Akron, and other MAC programs," and how they didn't have any interest from Michigan.
Speilman commented specifically on the fact that Michigan has been recruiting at a high level, but that their is no development whatsoever in Ann Arbor, and by contrast, an amazing amount in E. Lansing. Listenting to this was almost more infuriating than watching the game (until Devin threw that explicable shovel-pass INT).
I know, I know, bad coaching. But, I'd like to have a discussion about the "player development" and "motivation" that doesn't devolve into another, "Hoke sucks, fire them all." I agree, he sucks, and that they ALL should be fired. But, more importantly, how does the next coach "pick up the pieces" as this seems to have been an issue at Michigan since before Hoke -- I remember Ted Ginn Sr. commenting on how under Carr player, "never got any better, and/or got injured." It seems we're in the same boat, again.
Coaches, football experts, interested Michigan fans -- why do we suck? What is the key to "player development?" What is this staff missing? Why do other programs (even before Hoke) seem to get so much more out of their players than Michigan does? Is that perception even correct? Is Michigan recruiting soft, coddled players? I am just so beside myself here and searching for answers, and my fear is that even the "next guy" will experience the same issues.
Again, please guys, let's talk about the specifics of development and motivation, not just ripping on the coaches -- again, why do we suck?
October 27th, 2014 at 1:16 PM ^
It's beside the point. It's not like Michigan doesn't move guys around. The issue is that they are too stubborn about 1990s-style football to put Furman or Thomas at LB. They still want to 'get bigger'.
The entire VISION of the program is misplaced.
October 27th, 2014 at 12:58 PM ^
..Did anyone hear Jansen this AM? He said that in his day practice was so hard and gruelling that Saturdays were a relief. They just went out there and executed kicking A$$ along the way knowing they were tougher and nastier than the competition.
I have heard this many times about Bo. His practices expeically when he started were murder.
He said this over and over again in his segment.
Jansen was essentially saying that Hoke and his staff has made the team soft and are not developing the killer mindset during practice.
MSU took this approach as we were messing around slot ninjas and Josh Groban songs during the Rich Rod era. Guess what--they passed us (ran us off the road).
Maybe Hoke thought he could be Mr. nice guy and also have a good football team. It doesn't work that way.
CLEAN HOUSE! Fire all of them and start over with someone who doesn't give a damn about Mark Dantonio, the color red, or being liked.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:02 PM ^
I think the answer is simple. Recruiting rankings are for the fans. Coaches shouldn't give a damn about how many stars a kid has. They should be looking at tape and measureables. Get players to their camp and see how he responds to your coaching and if he is coachable.
Ultimately you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The players have to dig in and demand more from themselves first and then their teammates.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:15 PM ^
Recruiting rankings probably do hae some predictive value, but they are flawed. I have always though the rankings for linemen are incredibly difficult. When you're a college level O lineman you're playin aginst guys you might out weigh by up to 80 lbs, everyone is going to have incredible film gfoing against guys that much smaller than them. There is so much technique to learn, how can you honestly look at one 6-5, 280 lb 16 year old and say he's going to be better in 3 or 4 years than another 6-5, 280lb is kidding themselves. That's why we have a 5 star RS Sophomore in Kyle Kalis who looks average on his best games and MSU has a zero star RS sophomore left tackle in Jack Conklin who frankly looks like a stud 1st round pick and hasn't given up a sack in his career yet. They're the same age, there isn't a coach in the country who wouldn't take Conklin over Kalis right now. Not ripping on Kalis, I still think he'll be great, but they have a freaking Zero star left tackle who looks like Jake Long.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:15 PM ^
Recruiting rankings probably do hae some predictive value, but they are flawed. I have always though the rankings for linemen are incredibly difficult. When you're a college level O lineman you're playin aginst guys you might out weigh by up to 80 lbs, everyone is going to have incredible film gfoing against guys that much smaller than them. There is so much technique to learn, how can you honestly look at one 6-5, 280 lb 16 year old and say he's going to be better in 3 or 4 years than another 6-5, 280lb is kidding themselves. That's why we have a 5 star RS Sophomore in Kyle Kalis who looks average on his best games and MSU has a zero star RS sophomore left tackle in Jack Conklin who frankly looks like a stud 1st round pick and hasn't given up a sack in his career yet. They're the same age, there isn't a coach in the country who wouldn't take Conklin over Kalis right now. Not ripping on Kalis, I still think he'll be great, but they have a freaking Zero star left tackle who looks like Jake Long.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:05 PM ^
October 27th, 2014 at 6:01 PM ^
might not be an NFL QB, but he is an NFL player... and looking pretty damn good at that. Gardner is going to get a hard look by some NFL teams too, just not at QB. This is a product of RichRod's system, not a lack of player development. Nuss is a proven developer of QBs, so he a) needs more time and b) is probably not ideally matched up with a player like Gardner.
October 27th, 2014 at 6:23 PM ^
October 27th, 2014 at 7:33 PM ^
my point is merely that the fact we have not had an NFL QB since Mallett does not imply that we do not have a coach capable of developing QBs. The fact that neither Robinson nor Gardner will play QB in the NFL is hardly Nussmeier's fault.
October 27th, 2014 at 7:46 PM ^
October 27th, 2014 at 8:59 PM ^
here's to hoping Morris or Speight is next
October 27th, 2014 at 1:06 PM ^
We seem to lack it. If someone asked me to describe the type of player that embodies our program I'd be at a loss of words... "Um, someone good at football?" I'm tired of hearing about this amorphous "Michigan Man." We need a clear vison and a staff with the skill to implement it. It's hard to recruit the right players when there's seemingly no vision for the program.
On the otherhand, it seems there's little doubt about the vision of Dantonio's program... He runs a gritty program with a chip on its shoulder and he searches for hungry players to suit. I wouldn't doubt it if a small part of his strategy is to look for recruits that lack Michigan (and other traditional powers) offers just so he can use it as a motivational tactic. Is it a cheap tactic? Yup. Is it going to work on the average 18 to 21 year old? Yup.
Combine a clear vision with competent coaches and you're going to win a lot of games. Unfortunately, we're lacking in both categories.
October 27th, 2014 at 1:08 PM ^
One thing I've consistently noticed as becoming progressively worse, which I think can account for TONS of different issues, is angles and form.
Watch the defense try to tackle players. They consistently take the wrong angle, and try to tackle across the body. Not only is it a great way to miss or get beat on a tackle, it's a great way to get injured as well. The only player I saw show good form and angle recognition on Saturday was Lewis, who caused a fumble, by using good form. Other than that, everyone was atrocious. Watch this video with Pete Carroll on proper tackling, then watch Michigan try to tackle, and you'll see what I mean. Michigan constantly tries tackling guys by going high, bear hugging them, and concentrating too much on trying to pull the ball out instead of getting the guy down.
http://www.seahawks.com/videos-photos/videos/Seahawks-Tackling/af5b80dd…
When it comes to the offense, it's the same deal. The running backs consistently take the wrong angles and make the wrong cuts. I can't remember who it was last week, but there was a player that had a wide open path if he would have just run off of his blocker's backside. For some reason, he took the inside instead and was forced out of bounds. The backs just run into holes that aren't there instead of making the proper read as to whether the hole will develop or whether they should bounce outside.
Finally, the offenseive playcalling in the first half of last game was ATROCIOUS. I couldn't believe the commentators were praising Nussmeier towards the end of the game. It was clear early on that Michigan's OLine was not going to put up a lot of protection against MSU. An incredibly easy way out of that situation is to call quick slant routes or WR screens. I don't recall seeing one of those until late in the 4th quarter. Instead, Nussmeier was calling deep plays that took forever to develop, and shockingly, a flea flicker at one point. When the OLine can't protect more than 3 seconds, why in the world are you calling a flea ficker that takes forever to develop? It was infuriating.
October 27th, 2014 at 2:09 PM ^
Its tough to say because I'm guessing most of us don't get to watch practices.
But I seriously doubt that the kids Michigan recruits are all busts (which is what you'd sort of have to argue if you're defending this staff), because so many of them have offers from other prestige programs.
And someone was arguing above that stars don't matter...I mean, they kind of do. Its been shown time and time again that 5-star players pan out more often than 4-star players and 4-star players pan out more often than 3-star players, etc. So with the right staff, this team should be much better than it is right now (assuming Michigan isn't a flukish, outlier of a team).
This team is just lacking in so many areas. I mean, how can you, every single week, let the other team march down the field and score right before the half? Every real team we've played except for Penn State (and they have no offense) has done it this season. Its one of the key points in any game and every single week Michigan fails. And that's on the good side of the ball.
October 27th, 2014 at 2:37 PM ^
The AD is the de facto head coach. He dictates to the coaching staff what to do. Sorry, but Hoke, Nussmeier and even Greg Mattison have been reduced to the role of David Brandon's sock puppets.
David Brandon thinks it's still 1974 and tells the coaching staff to use strategies that are from 1974. When Brandon played, there were 115 schollies and there wasn't even cable TV yet. There was no access to information. It was possible for Michigan to put together a team that had so much talent that they could run triple option left and triple option right and only lose a game or two per season.
Now, everyone has access to information. Many HS players are coached better now than college players were in the 1970's. There are only 85 schollies and everyone gets to be on TV.
What worked in 1974 doesn't work now. Unless the players are as good as those playing for Bama, it is impossible to run predictable plays and succeed. It is even worse when everyone is crammed into the middle of the field for those plays.
The "development" problem is really a schematic problem. As the color person said on Saturday, MSU players knew were Devin's receivers were going before Devin did. When the other team knows exactly what you are going to do, all of the "development" in the world isn't enough to let you win.
What David Brandon has done to this team makes me want to go classless and RCMB in describing it. However, I will remember that I am on MGoBlog and simply say this:
David Brandon is the root of every problem on the field.
It is time to take out the garbage.
October 27th, 2014 at 3:57 PM ^
October 27th, 2014 at 7:51 PM ^
I see this from a bit of a different angle: I think the staff is terrible at roster mgmnt. development is clearly an issue as well, but the specifics are impossible to ID there- S&C, position coaching, organization, motivation, who the hell knows?
But look at the following questionable moves:
1) DG to WR
2) Funchess at TE for 2 years
3) Jake Ryan to MLB
4) thinking these DBs could play press man (this could certainly fall under development/coaching since they failed to actually teach these guy how to play press)
5) insisting on using multiple TEs when we don't seem to have a single decent (healthy) TE on the roster
6) Tackle over: or more generally, keeping it simple for a young OL.
7) Slowly moving away from spread to man ball inspite of EVERY PIECE OF EVIDENCE that this team is shitty at man ball.
8) QB recruiting: specifically that they thought bellomy was a D1 QB or that Morris is a good enough player to not recruit a QB in teh class before him.
9) playing an overweight Derrick Green last year. Christ man, a TRUE fucking freshman shows up fat in camp and the response from the staff is, "well, let's play him even tho he's not really showing that he's worked hard enough to deserve it."
October 27th, 2014 at 8:56 PM ^
Would really appreciate feedback on this by smart football people, because the OPs question strikes me as a really good one.
There are at least two distinct, but related claims out there. The first claim is that power football is an out-of-date dinosaur. The second is that our coaches cannot develop talent.
My primary concern is with the first. If and when we change coaches, I really hope we do not change philosophies. The team is stacked with freshman, sophmore, and junior talent well-suited to multiple tight-end sets and power running. If they are following a normal progression of strength/conditioning training and development, they should be ready to play in the near future, but not now. Power football, more so than the spread, requires physical maturity ordinarily found in upperclassmen. Rare gifted athletes are the exception that proves the rule. Power football with good defense is hardly an out-of-date dinosaur, since a good number of national champions won with this model over the last ten years. Alabama, LSU, MSU, Wisconsin, and Stanford are all teams that win with this model. Therefore, the 'out of date' offense claim seems out of place. (Out of date punt formations, however, are another story.)
The second claim is that our coaches cannot develop talent. Perhaps the most scrutinized position is the offensive line. Moreso than any other position, the power offense depends upon powerful, physically mature linemen. LSU starts 3 seniors, a junior and a sophmore on the line. Alabama starts a 330 pound, consensus five star true freshman alongside upperclassmen. MSU starts 2 redshirt seniors, a redshirt junior, and two redshirt sophmores. Wiscy starts three redshirt seniors, a redshirt junior, and one redshirt sophmore.
Our two redshirt juniors are a walk-on who barely knew how to play football whe he showed up (Glasgow) and a 3 star defensive end recruited by RichRod (Miller). Meanwhile, almost all of our five- and four-star talent is too young and too physically immature to be judged a bust. Our true freshmen starter is lucky to push 290 lbs. I am not saying they are being developed; I am saying we cannot say conclusively one way or the other. We will not now whether or not this staff recruits and develops linemen well until 2015, and, therefore, we probably will never have confirmation one way or the other.
At quarterback, we have a proven coach, Nuss. He consistently takes two years to develop pro-style quarterbacks, not six months to develop dual-threat quarterbacks.
On defense, our DL and LB are really, really good. Frank Clark will be drafted, Beyer is the definition of an overachiever, Henry is progressing, Glasgow didn't know how to play football when he showed up, etc., etc. Just look at the leap Martin and Van Bergen made under these coaches.
Defensive back is too early to tell. J. Lewis is amazing, Peppers is hurt, and everyone is learning to do something that Michigan State normally teaches to players over 2-3 years. This year, State is forced to start DBs earlier than they normally do and, surprise!, they are getting torched by big plays.
Conclusion 1: At a minimum, I hope we don't change philosophies prior to next year. Harbaugh or Miles would be a good fit.
Conclusion 2: So long as the players continue to support Hoke, I won't be disappointed if he's still around to get one last shot.
The first conclusion is undoubtedly less controversial than the second. Just please, for the love of everything sacred, do not start from scratch again.