MSU Basketball "Injury" narrative
I know this isn't a particularly useful thread, I'm not breaking any news or linking anything, but it is a slow day and I think it is worth noting that the Michigan State "injuries" narrative is now completely out of control. I get that they beat us without a couple of key players, and that was an admirable performance, but I have been doing some reading on different outlets regarding perspectives on the upcoming Michigan game and at times I am unsure if I am reading a real article or a parody.
First, I am kind of over hearing that Michigan State is "without Josh Langford." Josh Langford hasn't played in a game for two months. He is not on their team right now. MSU is without Josh Langford in the same way we were "without Mitch McGary" in 2014 (which nobody even mentioned when it came to Michigan that year).
Next, as of this typing, Izzo has spoken in press conferences and media appearances about 1) Kyle Ahren's back, 2) Matt McQuaid with a "slightly sprained angle, 3) Cassius Winston with "tendonitis that is limiting him."
I seriously don't even remember reading in any post-game write-ups after the Maryland game that Charles Matthews did not play. It is also conveniently never brought up that he was out for nearly the entire first half against Michigan State and could not jump in the second half.
MSU does this EVERY SINGLE YEAR with the injury narrative. They are always a "mash unit" or the "walking wounded." And I think it can have a psychological impact on their opponents. I hope Beilein is pumping it into the players heads this week that Michigan State is not beat up. Langford isn't on the team this season. Kyle Ahrens averages 5.2 points per game and will play against Michigan. Winston and McQuaid have not missed anytime and I am not particularly interested in a practice ankle injury wherein the injured player has missed 0 games.
On Saturday, MSU will be without Ward and Michigan likely without Matthews. That is the injury story.
Overly long rant over.
Izzo just seems to do much better with squads that are not littered with star power and he can tear down and build up. His old-school style is not meshing with the elite of the elite recruits. The fact that he could not get a team with Josh Jackson, Miles Bridges, and one of the better PGs in the country in Winston past an absolutely terrible Syracuse team AT HOME is laughable.
But, I just have the gnawing feeling that this is the perfect group for him to make a deep run.
I went to the MSU game at Crisler and thought their defense and ball movement was far better without Ward than with him.
Addition by subtraction.
Personally, I just think they wanted it more. A really hard thing to quantify, I know, but I just got that sense watching it on TV.
And I am not totally sure about that. Michigan had one of the best offensive outputs of the year against Nebraska, and went on the road and knocked off a team that hadn't lost at home yet in Maryland without Charles Matthews. I could probably create a narrative that the team moved better and didn't get stuck without Charles, because he does have the tendency to dribble all over the darn place and throw the offense out of whack. But I won't, because I know how important he is, just as I think Ward and Langford are.
The Langford thing still grinds me. When a player endures a season ending injury, at some point in that season you just are that team without that player. If Langford had not played at all this season, would it still be acceptable fodder to talk about this upcoming game as being "without Langford." Of course it is without Langford, Langford isn't playing this year.
Should we start discussing how much better we would be if Wagner had came back for his senior year, because he feasibly still could be playing for us.
If Wagner came back and then he got hurt then sure, we could have that conversation. Those seem like two very different scenarios.
Why? Mo Wagner is about as relevant as Josh Langford to the discussion of this upcoming matchup. Neither are playing this year.
I just find the conversation very different if a player says "I'm leaving," vs "I'm here" and gets hurt. We will have to agree to disagree on that.
I think the argument would make more sense if Langford was some 8th guy on the bench that did not expect to do anything. But it's a big loss, regardless of when it happened, and you can't convince me otherwise. Because no matter who you replace him with, it will be someone of lesser caliber, regardless of how comfortable they are in the scheme.
I agree with Uncle Leo on this one. The fact is you are down a starter regardless if it's a long term injury or not. If all five starters go down at once half way through the season, there is a legitimate gripe about injuries. No different with one guy. Of course, that does not justify the incessant whining and injury-related excuses by State.
Beilein knew he had Wagner's roster spot to fill while recruiting. Izzo found out mid-season. Pretty big difference to me.
this is my sentiment as well. Winning the BIG against Sparty at their den of douches will be epic. After the loss, we get treated to izzos postgame...can’t imagine the lines and memes that will be said/created.
I like your optimism (about izzo being distracted while whining about injuries to keep him from whining about refs).
Here's a nightmare scenario for you, what happens if a ref accidentally steps on Winston's toe during the game on Saturday? It would be interesting to see what sort of charred goo remains after izzo spontaneously combusts with rage.
I would like to see a healthy Mathews lock down McQuaid and not double team Cass so long off the pick. Let Simpson take him. Cass’s assists just destroyed us last game when he found the open guy off help defense.
yea, you're right. No one mentioned the Kentucky Transfer didn't play against UMD.
Tiny Tim is building up excuses now so we can blast his players after the game for having to coach differently sometimes. The guy is a twat.
Oh you didn't know? MSU football and basketball are the only programs that deal with injuries. Had it not been for all the injuries to key players the amount of championships dantonio and Izzo would have by now would rewrite the record books. It is peak little brother behavior....sets the script, so if they win they were able to beat us without their best players, and if they lose its because they didn't have their best players. The mental gymnastics of that fan base is hilarious.
^^^ It is crazy. They already beat us this year, you would think that it would have stopped then. I have seen two MSU fans today and said "big game on Saturday." Both responded with "I don't know, all these damn injuries...."
While I really hate the “playing a bunch of weird guys” rhetoric from Izzo, being down 2 starters is a big deal. Hard to tell with Langford being out but Ward could probably go all B1G first or second team. Also the reason you didn’t hear a lot of people bitching about Matthews being out when we played at Maryland is most likely due to us winning that game. Lose that game and I’m sure that’s everyone’s rationale.
Not having two starters is nothing to sneeze at, for sure. But I think the OP is speaking more to Izzo's relentless propaganda in regard to in-game misfortunes, injuries, statistical outliers ("this guy hit one three his entire life and he hits three in the last minute against us" /whimper), weird guys, "freshmen vs. seniors" etc., and that is the difference between a whiny little brother and a first-rate gentleman like Beilein. I don't have to tell any of you guys this, but compare any Izzo presser to Beilein's presser after the PSU game, our worst loss of the year in which he got ejected from the game: to say the difference is night and day is an understatement.
No offense but who fucking cares? Our coach is the better coach - why do we need an RCMB-esque thread to fabricate outrage about how Izzo conducts press conferences when he has injured players?
It would be easier if there was a single "fuck msu" thread where all the board members who want to be outraged over all things msu and Izzo can have a pity party over their narrative of choice instead of polluting this board with irrelevant ramblings about msu. I guarantee that if we win this weekend no one will give a fuck and a half about this perceived narrative or anything else when that banner is hoisted.
There are going to be a bunch of State trolls posing as Michigan fans in this thread isn't there?
Yes. Some have already posted.
I've been a Michigan fan my entire life. Never thought I'd root for the Spartinas. But after the shitshow of DickRod, Joke and Hairball, I just can't root for scUM anymore. I got accepted to Michigan but I chose Michigan State because scUM is so overrated. And Beilein is only going to take scUM as far as he can. Will never win a natty like Izzo. The Izz has taken MSU to a natty, 7 Final Fours, 8 Big Ten champs, and 5 Big Ten tourney champs. Belien will never be able to do that, and I'm tired of pretending that basketball started in 2013. Just keeping it reel
After losing to State in Ann Arbor, I don’t think the players will be overconfident, whatever injury talk they hear, or need to be pumped up to play them again.
Oh McQuaid and those pesky angles.
Either way, games gonna be close. The team has struggled on the road against inferior opponents all season post Villanova. NW took us down a notch and those three consecutive blow out wins against top teams (Nova, NC, Purdue). An opportunity to end the season with two wins on the road against top 20 competition would be a HUGE confidence booster for the team. And a much needed one. Not to mentioned the game is a de facto championship game for these two teams. Im not sure, but I don't think Beilein has won a regular season title yet?? The team did not play its greatest last go around and MSU shots lights out for a majority of the game. Should be a fun one!
Michigan tied for the B1G in '12 with Michigan State and Ohio State and won it in '14.
So frustratingly close in '13 if that tip by Morgan would have dropped. ARRRGH.
that damn morgan missed tip
Durrrr....Brain fart there and didn't really feel like looking it up. Forgot about the Tip to, vs IU right? Really hoping Beilein can add another Saturday!!!!!!
They beat us at home, ruining our perfect home season. I don't care about any "narrative" besides that.
These injuries aren't nothing. Langford and Ward were tentpoles of the roster coming into the season. Langford has been gone for a couple of months, but he is still a key loss.
Yeah, a bigger deal is made about MSU's injuries than should be. But the injuries they have right now are still a big deal. Honestly, Michigan SHOULD have made a bigger deal about Levert's injuries, with the way much of the fanbase was ready to kick Beilein to the curb because of a stretch of mediocrity in which Levert's absence played a significant part.
If Michigan had lost Iggy in December, he might not be "in the discussion" right now, but that injury absolutely would have had an effect on Michigan down the stretch. Matthews basically being a cipher the entire game due to the autobench and then the injury absolutely was an issue in game 1 against State, too.
Perhaps the answer is not to pretend MSU doesn't have injuries, but to be less dramatic, and to concede that injuries affect everybody.
TBH I don't care about narrative, though. Win the Game.
I'm not saying that the injuries are nothing. I am saying that MSU and Izzo uses them in whatever capacity they need them, their "injuries" are a sword and a shield.
I agree with your overall sentiment, just Win the Game, but it applies to both sides. I do tire of a Top 10 team with a 25-6 record lamenting injuries, particularly ones that took place around Christmas.
Who cares?
Good God, this isn't even a good RCMB thread.
They're MSU. They're irrelevant. Let them whine. If Michigan wins Saturday, I won't care how many weird guys they play, and if they don't, then it didn't hurt them.
This /\
i don't think those injuries are a big deal. i think mcquaid is getting more minutes due to the langford injury and is an overall better player. and i think tillman may be an overall better player than ward. that said, it's not the starter minutes that is the issue, imo. it's the backups. so maybe 10 min per game at those two spots is the issue. it's a deal, but shouldn't be a big deal.
matthews is a better overall player than both those sparties. and losing levert or mcgary (both preseason all americans) was a much bigger deal.
Tendonitis? Hmm, sounds like an overuse injury. Any thoughts on that topic, Tommy?
Um, play your four-star Michigan Mr. Basketball back up point guard for a few minutes?
Yes, play Foster Lawyer against Simpson so we can hear Tim moan some more about a freshman PG against an upperclassman (see: Walton, Derrick vs Winston, Cassius).
You mean that 7th grader?
I beg your pardon. Don’t you mean, Michigan’s 2018 Mr. Basketball all around champion point guard?
MSU played 7 conference or conference-level opponents while Langford was healthy: Kansas, UCLA, Texas, Louisville, Rutgers, Iowa, and Florida. They lost two of those games. 5-2, .714 winning percentage.
They're 13-4 in conference, absent those two B1G games above, a .764 winning percentage. This doesn't control for all variables (other players improving, etc), but in a vacuum they're better off without him.
That team is Winston, excellent defense, McQuaid, and their bigs capitalizing on great assists by Winston.
Fuck em
Concise, complete, on point.
Kudos.
Ok, cool.
Michigan State is a piece of shit institution, with piece of shit athletic teams, with piece of shit coaches, with piece of shit student athletes, and a total piece of shit student body. I will hate them until the day I die and hope they are not successful in anything in sports or after sports. They cry about everything and are quick to bash you for the same excuses they pull out of their ass. I don’t wish success for any MSU alumni athlete or not. Go fucking blue. *mic drop*
I like the cut of your jib. MSU is a regional school that nobody outside of Michigan and maybe Ohio give a fuck about. Definitely nobody outside of the B1G gives two shits about that cow college.
man you're working hard to foster some outrage. just have a beer. relax guy.
...and enjoy watching michigan grab a big10 championship on msu's floor this weekend.
OT to the post: Now I realize why the song Sloop John B keeps playing over and over in my head. It's your name!
I think I juries are really important. One thing that is overlooked is that these coaches go against each other all the time. It's a little easier to beat conference foes down a person or two than top teams in the NCAA tournament.
I mean we were pretty damn close to a final four without McGary. A few years earlier Lucas got injured in the tourney and MSU almost made the title game. I think both those teams could have won the title without those injuries.
I mean we'll never know, but I think these injuries will be a bigger factor in the tourney. We definitely don't make a serious tourney run without matthews (he should 100% be back for it) and I don't see MSU making a serious run without langford (their other dudes should be fine by the tourney).