Gholston Playing yesterday
Sorry if this was already covered in the game thread yesterday, but I didn't see much discussion on this and I was wondering how it has gotten such little coverage.
I'm wondering how the hell Gholston was cleared to return to the game yesterday after having the "wind knocked out of him?"
The replay sure looked like to me like (? Isiah Lewish I think) had helmet to helmet contact with Gholston, snapping Gholston's head back. Then Gholston laid ABSOLUTELY MOTIONLESS for a good 30 seconds. Then he gets up, and has this glazed look in his eyes on the sidelines like "WTF just happened to me?"
Then it gets brushed off as him having the wind knocked out, and nobody makes a peep again.
Now I'm no doctor, but I wasn't aware that being smashed in the head and having your neck snap back (with no contact to your chest) knocks the wind out of you. I also wasn't aware that not being able to catch your breath leaves you motionless/face down for a good 30 seconds. I've had the wind knocked out of me--I remember rolling around the ground panicking that I was going to die. Laying still was the LAST thing you do in that situation.
That dude was hit in the head and rendered unconscious. There are no "tests" to clear a concussion; once you are (pretty obviously) knocked unconscious, you have a consussion--end of story. Whatever crackpot MSU "doctor" cleared him to play shouild lose his medical license.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:30 PM ^
Calm down dude. He wasn't serious. He was clearly playing sarcastaball with you there.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:50 PM ^
Where is his bra at? Learn the signs, learn the signs...:P
October 1st, 2012 at 1:38 PM ^
To someone who apparently did wish Gholston to get hurt (which has apparently disappeared). At that time it was pretty apparent that Justingoblue was being sarcastic, but looking at the thread now it's not so clear.
October 1st, 2012 at 3:11 PM ^
I responded to a (now) deleted comment saying something like "who cares, he sucks". The reply below mine, the one you're responding to, was posted while the other one was still up.
To be absolutely clear, I do not wish death on humans that happen to play sports for a school/team/country I dislike. I didn't think that needed to be said, but there it is.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:36 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 12:58 PM ^
You still are moving to regain your breath. He was absolutely motionless. Regardless of what happened to him, the med staff cleared him. End of story.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:00 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 1:00 PM ^
And as far as getting cleared by medical staff I, and many others, can attest to the fact that just being a doctor or being responding for another's health-care does not automatically make one objective. The vast majority will not let something like winning a game affect their objectivity, but you know what, all those trainers are still human. They can make judgement errors just like any other person can. I still lay this at the feet of Dantonio; he can make his own judgement not play the kid until more rigorous testing can be done. In the 2010 Illinois game, RR chose to sit Denard with the game, and his job, on the line even after he was cleared by the medical staff because of some possible concussion. He stated that Denard's safety was first priority and he wanted Denard to get checked out some more after the game.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:04 PM ^
It's odd that Dantonio would take a chance keeping him in there. Especially since his loss wouldn't exactly be a blow to MSU's D-Line unless the person behind him on the depth chart has no arms.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:18 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 1:18 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 1:34 PM ^
Judging from the hit he took to the helmet/head/neck, I don't think "getting the wind knocked out" was the issue.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:08 PM ^
I don't think Philibuster's post was dealing with this aspect but just responding to all the claims that getting the wind knocked out can't lead to loss of consciousness. Yes it can. Like Philibuster, I've had it happen to me too. I do agree with Magnus too, though, nothing about that hit looked like it had to do with getting the wind knocked out of him. That to me seems the oddest part of the whole thing. Unless the dude's head is full of air, that hit sure didn't seem like the kind of thing that could be characterized as getting the wind knocked outl
There were trainers out there while he was still on the ground. I presume they know whether he was conscious or not. He appeared to be unconscious, but we don't even know that for a fact. For allwe know the officials who saw the hit told everyone to stay still and not move. The tv commentators were praising Miller for his not moving to get out from under, but maybe he and Gholston were both taking directions from the officials not to move. I suspect after the hit in that Tulsa game a few weeks ago, officials have been advised about how to respond to head-to-head collisions and would have been giving such instructions.
The tv commentators were saying he was out cold; they had the same view and lack of specific information we did. And, we all know tv commentators are idiots anyway.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:24 PM ^
Now I'm no doctor
There's the problem. I think perhaps you should give actual trained medical professionals the benefit of the doubt here. Given the amount of publicity that the topic of concussions in football has received, I've got to imagine that team doctors have been urged to be very cautious in these matters.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:25 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 2:24 PM ^
professionals on the field didn't think of doing that. I bet they just asked, "You okay, champ?" whereupon he answered with a drool, stumbling, and incoherence, all of which the medical professionals ignored, because, let's face it, it's not like doctors are trained to recognize concussions or anything, right?
September 30th, 2012 at 2:37 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 6:39 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 1:31 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 1:32 PM ^
October 1st, 2012 at 2:18 PM ^
I know you're just using it to set up the joke, but the baseline score really is one key way they test for concussions during the game. According to the best experts on U of M's faculty (wife went to med school at Michigan a couple years ago and got lectures on it), there's absolutely no medical basis for that test.
That doesn't change the fact that everyone uses it (including Michigan), but I thought I'd just add to the discussion the consensus from Michigan faculty that it's an entirely unproven, and likely very faulty system for detecting concussions. Someone failing that test should certainly mean they get pulled, but I think a good doc and good coach should also pull anyone in the situation that Gholston seemed to be in, even if he is able to pass the test.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:34 PM ^
If Gholston had taken a blow to the head in a boxing or MMA fight equal to what he sustained in the game and ended up flat on his face, completely still, with no motion whatsoever in any of his limbs for at least 30 seconds, he would have been counted out. If anything, the judge wouldn't even bother counting to 10, he'd just signal the end of the fight and immediately summon the ringside doctor.
Yet a bunch of you apparently think that Gholston would be OK to get back into the ring after he gets up and walks around a bit.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:40 PM ^
The MSU team doctors cleared him to play. Presumably, they are more qualified to have passed judgment than anyone posting in this thread.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:41 PM ^
...not if the team doctors themselves graduated from MSU.
ZING!!!
September 30th, 2012 at 1:46 PM ^
real life experience+actually being on the field next to him>a bunch of non-doctors who only know what they saw on TV and read on WebMD.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:48 PM ^
Stop raining on my parade of MSU hate. Can't a guy just unreasonably insult MSU's medical staff without a dose of reality?
September 30th, 2012 at 2:04 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 3:48 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 4:00 PM ^
I don't know what they saw or didn't see. What I do know is that it's their job to make sure he's okay, and they'd be facing a serious public outcry (and near-certain termination) if something had happened to him following this. So I don't think they'd be too cavalier here.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:37 PM ^
I mised the play. Has anyone been able to find a video of it?
September 30th, 2012 at 1:40 PM ^
I was at the game. I couldn't really tell what happened from the replays they showed at the game since it was only from one angle. I just remembered seeing a collision and 3 guys laying on top of each other motionless (Gholston, Miller, and Lewish). Seems like the TV replays did a better job of capturing the hit, but Gholston was pretty quick to get up and walked off with little to no assistance.
September 30th, 2012 at 1:43 PM ^
By "pretty quick to get up," do you mean laid there motionless for 60 seconds, then crawled to his knees facedown for another 60 seconds, and then stumbled to his feet?
Our definitions of "quick" must be from different dictionaries.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:10 PM ^
Yeah, that didn't really feel like a "shake it off champ" type of hit.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:20 PM ^
Quick to get up meaning he did not have to be helped up. He got up on his own power and walked off the field.
October 2nd, 2012 at 4:36 PM ^
Well, he was out and non-responsive for over half a minute while on the field. He may have "gotten up" with help eventually, but he definitely did not pop right up after that hit.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:06 PM ^
The way he went down made it pretty obvious he was unconscious. Went limp, arms out rather than bracing himself, and stayed completely motionless once he was down.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:41 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 2:15 PM ^
You can walk without assistance after a concussion. And Gholston was not quick to get up. He took a nap with his arms attached to his body like limp noodles. Hope the kid is ok, but I mostly agree with the OP. You don't throw someone back onto the field after short term paralysis because they can recite the score to you.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:05 PM ^
I'm going to presume that the staff doctor took a look at him and made the determination that he was able to play. I know that people like to think of the rivals as being idiots and bloodthirsty monsters, but the medical staff at these games are going to be top-notch and are not going to risk players' lives. And Dantonio isn't an idiot - if Gholston went out there and got hurt again, it would reflect poorly on him and the program.
I think what we saw out of the All American Gholston (TM Gameday) was a rough hit and a guy who might have been knocked out but not concussed.
September 30th, 2012 at 11:31 PM ^
1) As noted many places earlier, if you are knocked out due to a hit to the head, by definition, you have a concussion.
2) Team sports doctors are notorious for having dual loyalties - to their profession and to their team. I am not suggesting MSU is better or worse at this than any program in the country, but it is not at all shocking that a team doctor wouldn't properly do their job. It seems extremely unlikely, based on the fact he literally didn't move for a long period, that Gholston had "the wind knocked out."
At a bare minimum, this Gholston event should require a persistent investigation by the media. One interesting fact - the word "neurology" is not mentioned on the entire MSU team physician page. Perhaps there is a good explanation for this (seriously, maybe there is), but I'd love to hear it. Who sets their concussion protocols? How do they make sure they are followed? Did they see the video that showed a) Gholston received a hit to the head, not the chest and b) didn't move when the ref tapped him on the back. Etc.
http://athletictraining.msu.edu/people/physicians.html
I have zero love for Gholston, but it is common knowledge now that the absolute worse thing that a player can do after receiving a concussion is go out and play right away, b/c if they receive a second one, they literally could be killed. It made me sad, for him, to see him out there later that same day.
October 2nd, 2012 at 4:40 PM ^
1) The presumption is that you are concussed. But they run those tests to confirm, and if they come back negative then there is no reason he should not be able to get back out there. So regardless of if you defined that initially hit as a "concussion" or not, there is a process by which the medical professionals determine if you can go back out there. That was more my point.
2) Maybe I'm naive, but it seems strange that a staff doctor on a college team would take it upon himself to clear a kid while knowing he was concussed. That is a huge risk for minimal gain. Now, if he just did a crappy job administering the test, that's different. I don't disagree that could have happened; I just took issue with the general sense of conspiracy some comments were making about the doctor sending Gholston back out there even though he knew he was injured.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:08 PM ^
My wife is a medical doctor that did some research on concussions a few years back. I described the play and situation to her as best I could and her opinion was that there is no way he should have been playing. If he was actually "out cold" (which I said he was for 15-30 seconds) she said there is no way he should be playing, probably not for several days.
I'm not going to say the team doctor or trainer on the sideline should be fired like the OP somewhat suggests, but I do think there should be some sort of an investigation into the incident. Endangering players like this is NOT ok.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:15 PM ^
This is the important piece of information that we may be missing though. Was he or was he not "out cold"? It sure looked that way from our vantage point, but we don't know for a fact that he lost consciousness.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:21 PM ^
their weight will say that the player shouldn't have been playing. We have absolutely no evidence that he actually did lose consciousness. You can't ask your wife to accurately judge a situation when you don't even give her the correct facts. You simply can not say that he was endandgered after undergoing a slate of medical tests and showing that he was fine on all of them, especially in a football atmosphere that is increasingly conscious of the risks of head injuries.
September 30th, 2012 at 2:57 PM ^
"We have absolutely no evidence that he actually did lose consciousness."
I mean, while we don't have definitive evidence, I'd say seeing a player laying completely motionless with his eyes closed on the field is evidence of losing consciousness. Like I said, there may be other explainations, but saying there is "absolutely no evidence" is ridiculous.
September 30th, 2012 at 3:07 PM ^
It would be nice if somebody could post the video of the play and the few minutes following, but I thought he was face down. How did you know that his eyes were closed?
September 30th, 2012 at 6:50 PM ^
September 30th, 2012 at 7:18 PM ^
When you get fouled in Bball you lay motionless for 30 seconds? I'll bet you're a joy to play with.
September 30th, 2012 at 7:43 PM ^
have allowed you to see that I was making the link between taking a hard hit and not moving because of the shock. You keep throwing out 30 seconds. Where are you getting that number from? The OP, not the most trustworthy source. You give me something besides an arbitrarily chosen number, and then we can argue.
September 30th, 2012 at 8:09 PM ^
Did you even see it? If so, how long would you say he was motionless for? I didn't have a stopwatch out, but I'd say it was at least 30 seconds if not more.
Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AZsok00Pio
It was over a minute between when the play happened and Musberger says "now Gholston's moving". Like I said, there could be another explaination, but I think its at least possible he was concussed.