PSU gets ltr from NCAA
November 18th, 2011 at 5:28 PM ^
The problem is that the NCAA already can't enforce its typical rules (against recruiting violations, etc.) very well. It's stretched too thin. Trying to duplicate the work of law enforcement will leave it with few resources to carry out its mission.
I also think that NCAA policing of law enforcement issues is redundant and somewhat pointless. Who is going to care that they're facing NCAA sanctions when they're also facing 50 years in jail?
I'm confident that no one here is saying that Sandusky and others shouldn't be punished if guilty (as they appear to be). People are just saying that the NCAA isn't the institution to do that punishing, just as you wouldn't have a security guard try to track down a drug-smuggling ring.
November 18th, 2011 at 11:33 PM ^
at punishing Sandusky or individuals. It's aimed at punishing the institution for creating a culture that allowed there to be a coverup. I don't have a problem with the NCAA doing that.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:51 PM ^
Did you read the letter they sent? It specifies the "rules" they think PSU might have violated. They are tying it to NCAA rules, as they should.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:56 PM ^
I did. And on the second page, second paragraph, not one of those rules directly relates to the PSU scandal, strictly because the NCAA bylaws weren't written to punish sex offenders, which is what I've been saying above.
November 18th, 2011 at 4:05 PM ^
November 18th, 2011 at 4:14 PM ^
Rape -> coverup (although legal duties possibly satisfied, so the NCAA's definition of coverup) -> recruiting restrictions.
If you read 11.1.2.1, they specifically reference NCAA compliance. 11.01.1 uses the words "sportsmanship", "fair play", "wholesome competitive sports". Their rules weren't written to enforce the moral standards of employees beyond their work with the NCAA, and that entire paragraph is a ridiculous stretch to apply here, IMO.
November 18th, 2011 at 4:17 PM ^
You left out the preceding paragraph which sets the framework. In it, it says you gotta be honest, etc. even outside of the playing field.
November 18th, 2011 at 4:18 PM ^
We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's kind of pointless in that the NCAA lawyers vs the PSU lawyers are going to decide if 10 and 11 apply here or not.
November 18th, 2011 at 4:08 PM ^
But they were written to punish lying and deceit by member institutions and their officers. That is pretty clearly spelled out, and it is also clearly spelled out that this applies to contexts outside of the playing field, as long as it relates in some way to the "broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program."
Unless you can successfully argue that multiple rapes of young boys who are guests of the PSU athletics department, while on campus and in PSU athletics facilities, followed by senior AD officials lying about those events, is not associated with the "broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program" the NCAA has a legitimate role here.
November 18th, 2011 at 4:24 PM ^
Each of these is written and prefaced with the idea of NCAA compliance, not every facet of life. How an organization tasked with "monitoring amateur athletics" or whatever the exact wording on their mission statement is can suddenly be punishing employees for not taking the initiative to go to the police is where i get lost. Their own bylaw even says that it's Paterno's job to "monitor compliance", which has nothing to do with this case at all.
Their argument on that count has to go like this: "Paterno should have known that his assistant failing to notify police was an NCAA ethical violation, so his continued conduct then accounts for another ethical violation" when there is nothing in the NCAA rulebook to state what that violation could be. That, to me, is senseless.
Following it through, how far are you willing to let NCAA violations creep into life outside NCAA compliance?
November 18th, 2011 at 4:32 PM ^
You didn't address the most important part. Are you arguing that multiple rapes of young boys who were guests of the PSU AD, in PSU athletic facilities, that were then covered up by senior PSU AD officials is not part of the "broad spectrum of activities affecting the athletics program?"
When the athletics program facilitiates these crimes and covers them up, it is a compliance issue. The NCAA has defined compliance that way. You might not like that they have defined compliance in that way, but they have.
November 18th, 2011 at 4:44 PM ^
They mention "multiple cases" where they have brought this article against athletic departments in the past, but they don't mention any case where the particulars are even close to this one. I can see where they extend compliance using this definition to discourage envelopes of cash at recruiting events, or an assault from a player or coach, but I would be very interested to see if it has ever been applied to a case not involving a current athlete or coach.
My bet is that the NCAA has never filed a case like this before, so it's quite possible that is not the way they define compliance, and are looking for some good will in this case, stretching the rules to make them fit this incident.
November 18th, 2011 at 7:28 PM ^
The head coach and AD were "current" at the time of the incedents, as was the assistant coach at the time of the first alleged assault.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:40 PM ^
Whatever the NCAA chooses to do, I hope they allow the current PSU players to transfer without penalty like they did at USC.
It's not the players' fault this happened but the university should be punished if the alleged crimes are found to be true. Ironically, this could end up being how Bolden actually gets to transfer after Paterno denied his request last January.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:29 PM ^
I find the timing odd. It seems like the Penn State administration has more pressing issues than to respond to the NCAA by mid December. I'd much rather see them getting to the bottom of all the legal issues first. The facts will come out in due time, at which point, the NCAA can do whatever it wants.
This just seems like the NCAA felt pressure to do something and do it soon.
This Bylaw 19.01.2 seems very difficult to enforce
November 18th, 2011 at 3:41 PM ^
Agreed as to the timing. I find it odd that they claim to not want to interfere with the legal process, yet demand answers which could have a substantial impact on the legal process by the middle of December.
The NCAA is reaching a bit, but this situation is so far beyond the bounds of what I think was ever considered when the by-laws were written that they felt compelled to shoehorn it into something under the code.
November 18th, 2011 at 4:08 PM ^
First, there is no way in hell that PSU is going to provide information to the NCAA that might potentially impact the pending criminal cases or expected lawsuits. And that is, more or less, exactly the type of information the NCAA has asked PSU to provide.
Second, if the NCAA gets involved here, it sets a precedent. It will then have to get involved in every other potentially serious criminal situation. For example, they will need to investigate the ND situation where the female student accused a player of sexual assault and shortly thereafter committed suicide. Did ND investigate that properly? Did they cover anything up? What about all of the other situations in which athletes, coaches or administrators are charged with serious criminal activity every year? If a HC is charged with domestic abuse, does the NCAA launch an investigation? How about a player? AD? President? Are all schools properly handling criminal allegations against athletes, coaches and administrators or is it possible some are systematically covering them up?
We have law enforcement agencies and courts whose job it is to handle exactly this type of situation. The NCAA adds nothing by getting involved. In fact, the NCAA barely does a competent job investigating and enforcing its own rules. The last thing the NCAA should be doing is running around trying to investigate and enforce potential violations of criminal law.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:35 PM ^
In other PSU news, Mike McQueary seems to have participated in charity events benefitting Second Mile . . . after walking in on the alleged rape in the showers.
http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2011-11/penn-state-scand…
(Edit: not sure why the link won't show up in blue, but if you copy and paste it, it works.)
November 18th, 2011 at 3:49 PM ^
Thanks for posting, jmb. The saying has been pounded into the ground, but you really could not make this stuff up. I was dumbfounded the McQueary could walk the same halls as the child molester he barged in on, only to find out that he was doing work WITH him. Granted, McQueary's work benefitted underprivileged children, but there are hundreds of other great charities that benefit children that he could have spent his time on! Crazy. Talk about selling one's soul to the devil.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:57 PM ^
This simply can't be so. Remember, McQuery not only stopped the rape that night he also immediately went to the police. The fact that this is in conflict with his Grand Jury testimony and the police have no record of this shouldn't matter.
After all - he wrote it in an email to his friend so it MUST be true.......
November 18th, 2011 at 4:18 PM ^
You forgot - he wrote it in an email just a few days ago, not when it all went down. And since we all know that his memory is spotless and it definitely happened as he remembers it 10 years later, its definitely true. I don't see anything wrong with him hanging out with Sandusky after giving him a beatdown and referring him to the cops. They must have shaken hands and made up.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:51 PM ^
Even given the circumstances of this awful affair, that is just bizarre...I'm very glad not to be able to imagine what was going through his head while he was at those functions.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:38 PM ^
"So, yeah, you should definitely be our next coach here at PSU, Coach ____. Just, uh, couple of things. 1. We don't have an AD yet, just an interim, so I can't tell you who your boss will be. And you won't be his hand-picked guy, so like, try not to lose any games. 2. We don't have a President of the University, just an interim, so, like, I can't tell you what direction the program will take over time. 3. Uh, there's an NCAA investigation, and we have no idea how long it'll take -- probably years, if they're going to wait out criminal and maybe civil lawsuits -- and, if they decide to take acction, oh it'll probably be the single worst punishment ever handed out. Maybe, who knows.
"But, you know, there's an upsiiiiii.... hey, where'd you go?"
November 18th, 2011 at 3:42 PM ^
The letter (er, ltr) does contain the dreaded "institutional control" question...
"Penn State's exercise of institutional control over its intercollegiate athletics programs" with regard to Jerry Sandusky...
November 18th, 2011 at 3:49 PM ^
"it's not the NCAAs business". If this isnt LOIC I don't know what is...
November 18th, 2011 at 4:11 PM ^
I think of the NCAA as existing at least nominally to protect athletes. No athletes that we know of were harmed here. I realize that this is a little like saying, "I may be a murderer, but I never once cheated at Monopoly," but that's where people are coming from. I've never seen the NCAA say, "We're going to hit you for general bad behavior."
November 18th, 2011 at 7:43 PM ^
has ZERO relevance because this isn't an athletics issue. People keep saying this like it's some obvious point.
November 18th, 2011 at 7:45 PM ^
The NCAA seems to disagree with you.
November 18th, 2011 at 3:59 PM ^
Penn State is no longer a Big Ten caliber institution. Their football program is eff'd. Their basketball program's always sucked, and their academics could potentially take a major hit. But most importantly, I do not want UofM associated with a school that condoned and enabled a child rapist for 13+ years (starting in AT LEAST 1998).
November 18th, 2011 at 4:55 PM ^
11 teams does not work. Besides, do you not believe in redemption? There is also the sticky matter of replacing a historically strong program and institution with one of equal caliber.
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<br>I know waxing self-righteously without considering the very real difficulties of aisny particular issue is the favored past time of Internet message board denizens, but it is not a laudable trait to have.
November 18th, 2011 at 5:12 PM ^
They will be replacing a program that will be best known for condoning and enabling a child rapist. It will not be difficult to find a stronger program to replace them. Pitt would be a great replacement. If they're no longer interested, then going to 11 teams is an improvement over keeping PSU. You may be too young to remember, but for a couple decades the Big Ten was financially the strongest conference as a 11 member conference.
November 18th, 2011 at 4:13 PM ^
gt dm psus ota ds cnf
November 18th, 2011 at 5:25 PM ^
.....and then McQueary is revealed to have done work for the Second Mile Foundation? Did walking in on...that....create a dilemma between doing the right thing and an upcoming speaking engagement, Mike? Remind me to burn PSU letters if my kids get them when they get to high school.
November 18th, 2011 at 7:09 PM ^
By the way, here's the full transcript of the Sandusky interview by Costas. There's a couple of jaw-droppers in there that weren't aired the first time around:
Well -- you might think that. I don't know. (LAUGHS) In terms of -- my relationship with so many, many young people. I would-- I would guess that there are many young people who would come forward. Many more young people who would come forward and say that my methods and-- and what I had done for them made a very positive impact on their life. And I didn't go around seeking out every young person for sexual needs that I've helped. There are many that I didn't have-- I hardly had any contact with who I have helped in many, many ways."
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/jerry-sandusky-i-seeking-youn…
November 18th, 2011 at 7:53 PM ^
The fact that he really wasn't emotional and said things such as these, even if it didn't make the air, is extremely disturbing.