Great quote from RVB regarding alumni
"You know, it's just kind of unsettling that there's ... it's great that they're back, but it's kind of, where have they been the last two or three years?" Van Bergen said. "We've still been wearing the same helmets since they were here."
This echoes something similar to what Brian wrote last week asking the same question.
April 18th, 2011 at 12:56 PM ^
I find it hard to believe that any newly hired head coach would embrace the former coach "being around" all the time. Any time new leadership comes in (be it business, coaching, whatever) they try to establish their own values and ways to do things. If the old leaders are still around, there's a conflict and more resistance to change. Lloyd probably tried to stay away from the program for this very reason. I don't know what was said by RR and crew, I was not there. However, joking about "the way things used to be" or "that used to be ok, but it's not anymore" can be seen as disparaging to the former regime.
Unfortunately it's a moot point. Now we have Hoke, who has all the support in the world from former players and the majority of the fanbase. It's great that things are (seemnigly) coming back together. However, it's too bad that these current Michigan Men had to go through all this BS.
at least with respect to Lloyd "being around" (although Carr was not around on football team on a daily basis that I have heard). However, as a person who wants to succeed and embrace the tradition of Michigan, it would be a very large mistake indeed to diss publicly (ie. to anyone other than his immediate staff) the former, successful coach who just retired on good terms.
And I think that was part of the bind RR was in - on the one hand, Lloyd retired on good terms with a lot of loyal former players, and RR needed to respect that tradition. On the other hand, RR was brought in to improve, not just continue, Michigan football.
So he had to talk about improving and doing this better and working harder here and being smarter there, but there were loyal former players naturally quick to take offense at that suggestion that things weren't great. This is the dilemma of all coaches replacing a respected but not dominant retiring coach.
Imagine if you will that Brady Hoke was hired in 2008 and said exactly the same things he's said now - we need to return to Michigan football, we need to be tougher, etc, etc. Ultimately, the sentiment's the same - we always need to improve, nothing less than championships is acceptable. There would likely be those who bristled at the implicit repudiation of the old regime.
any reason for staying away from UM football is too petty for me to understand.
April 18th, 2011 at 10:03 AM ^
I'm glad he said it. I like the feeling that we have positive energy back with all the former players/media.. But at the same time I can't help but being cynical because most of it seems petty. I'm still pissed that we had so many people down on the program and talking bad. It's easy when things are not going well, but it should have never become what it has. I had a guy work for me - on his 1st day I asked what he thought of the football team (I knew he went to UofM by his resume). He said he hopes we lose 'em all because he wants RR fired... Needless to say I've had some pretty good debates with him and in one case a good shouting match. It's all good because he wanted what's best for the program, but the means to get there was just completely 180 from mine thoughts.
I'm a bit scarred that I had to defend why I still supported them over the past 2 years while all the negative people eventually won out. I don't ever want them to be happy. I will and have supported the team through it all and was there at OSU this year, survived the N'Western game a few year back...always have always will.
I'll get over my anger towards the people who didn't defend the program, but I'll never forget it. I hope we've all learned a lesson about never taking anything for granted. I'll take a blow-out of a MAC team any day now! I'll take seeing a 4 star commit and thinking..cool but what about the 5 star?
Anyway, I'm glad RVB said it and I hope others notice. But I do like that at a minimum, we have a united fan base again. The results over the next 2 years will show who's on board for real, but it feels better.
As for those who get annoyed when others bring this up - relax. It's the internet and obviously people have opinions on it and strong feelings.
All-in as usual..
April 18th, 2011 at 10:22 AM ^
I think your comment highlights the heart of the problem:
the negative people eventually won out. I don't ever want them to be happy.
All-in as usual..
No "people" won out. The program "won" as we now have a coach who is more likely to bring the program back to a high level of performance. You're guilty of everything you're complaining about. You (and those of a similar mindset) are the divisive ones. It seems to always be a "I'm a bigger fan" pissing match for some. There isn't a "winning" or "losing" among a fan base when a coach is hired/fired. In a few years, we'll know whether the program make the right decision (because performance is the ultimate indicator), but you're bearing the same grudge that so many endlessly drone on about here (in defending RR).
p.s. The phrase, "All In" - super divisive, tired and (hopefully) retired with the new staff.
April 18th, 2011 at 11:34 AM ^
You missed my point and maybe I didn't communicate it well, but I am not claiming to be a better fan. I have a grudge, yep - but I'm going to grin and bare it man. I saw what happened and it needs to end.
What has this blog talked about for a while? That all the negative media are now all positive and rosy...that's what I'm talking about. It makes me laugh.
I'm not apologizing that I'm not loving the fact that the majority of people who talked negative about the program are now happy...sorry man. I want to be in the stadium with people who support the program and not picking and choosing when it's convenient.
It's over and I'll be happily spending my money on tix again this year as usual. Can't wait, but yep I'm not going to be high-five'n the people who were booing the team the last few years. Sorry bro. As far as I'm concerned, they already turned in their fan card in my mind.
You don't think RVB comments were the same? Like Where The HELL were all of you before? That's what I'm talking about - on a thread talking about this topic, not starting one and being negative.
All-in is dumb, but whatever man...so were the last 3 years.
April 18th, 2011 at 11:52 AM ^
The program "won" as we now have a coach who is more likely to bring the program back to a high level of performance.
I know of no metric that supports you on that. We can disagree, sure. But you cannot presume that you are correct. I think you are incorrect.
One advantage that Brady Hoke seems to have going for him is a supportive, if not fawning, local press. Another advantage is the lack of any massively-distracting NCAA investigation. And finally, a supportive "extended football family." There is no good reason for all of those things to have been denied to Coach Rodriguez, which is why people like me, with very long and very good memories, are still pissed off.
It amazes me, when mgobloggers can't grasp the fact that RR was fired for what happened on the field, in particular this past November and the Bowl game. Those were 3 absolute putrid games to end the season. Also last years pitiful November was the best of the RR era, we actually won a game, something we couldn't accomplish in 09' or 08'
I think the exact opposite will happen—virtually all the credit will go to Hoke, especially if we manage to beat MSU and OSU. The near-unanimous consensus will be that such success only proves that RR didn't know what the hell he was doing, and that Brady Hoke does. RR will receive little credit for the guys he recruited either in terms of character or talent. That's the way it goes at any school; UM will be no different. Fair or not, coaches who are fired are almost never given any credit for future teams' successes.
And if the season is disappointing, you can also be assurred that RR will still get the lion's share of the blame; Hoke will largely be given a pass for his first year, at least by the majority of Michigan fans, while the diehard remnants of RR supporters will be apoplectic about what David Brandon ruined.
While I agree that the larger fan base will probably give Hoke most the credit, more than he deserves, I am mainly addressing this blog and its tendency to ride RR's jock like a bicycle, and I am just guessing that if Hoke is successful much of that immediate success will be attributed to RR, and will be more than the former coach deserves, as a means to justify the ongoing apology thon.
April 18th, 2011 at 11:57 AM ^
It's funny how some people think that the program won out...Brady Hoke may lead this team to a big ten title, but what do you honestly think the chances of him leading us to a national title are?? Its clear to me especially over the last 3 years now that a lot not all of Michigan fans are completely fine with living in mediocrity. I'm not one of them, if you think the program won out you are wrong. What does competing at a high level mean to you?? You mean for a big ten title and then getting your ass handed to you in the rose bowl? You mean playing for one national title in 60 years?? People, wake up. Neg me all you want, but Its reality.
April 18th, 2011 at 12:16 PM ^
You're a bigger man than me because, while this is my argument in the comfort of my own home, I'm too afraid of the "neg" to post it here. This is probably my BIGGEST issue with all of this - what do "expectations of winning" even mean to this fanbase?
He does make a valid point, though: the whole idea of hiring RR was, at least in my mind (and in Brian Cook's mind) to break the mold, and break through the "glass ceiling" that the team has had for quite awhile. It was the concept that, to truly get to elite status, we had to go to a different way of doing things: one which would be painful to enact, but would hopefully have a higher risk/reward ratio. The theory was that we may have more variance as a team from season-to-season, but we'd hopefully have a higher ceiling. Well, change was far more painful than anyone imagined, and we gave up on it midstream. I realize that this falls on RR: the defense was terrible. I'm just pointing out that there was a mindset that some people identified with, including myself and the poster you are responding to, that said to truly "break through," we needed significant change, and folks like us have a worry in the back of our minds that the AD and many other fans would rather win 8 or 9 games a year, maybe get some bounces and win more, and be consistently good, but never truly elite, as it is "safer," and easier to stomach year-in, year out.
I hear you and must say that I can't disagree. You're right- it is a bit of a "glass half empty" mindset, and it shouldn't be that way. I will root like hell for this team, and perhaps the "breaking the glass ceiling" will happen under Hoke. Either way, judging Hoke and his regime before they've played a down is asinine and unfair, and I shouldn't do so in re: "glass ceiling" until there's enough data to form an opinion one way or the other, definitively, which honestly should take at least 3 seasons.
April 18th, 2011 at 10:12 AM ^
I don't think any us of can know exactly what RR did or did not do to welcome the former players and make them feel part of the family (as they now do again). I can provide one example to show that these things are not so cut and dry. A friend (eh, more friend through business) is a former player. Right after the RR hire, I asked his opinion. His response was all positive. Then when Hoke was hired, he was identified as one of the former players "in the back of the room" at the initial presser supporting the new hire.
So, did the guy "check out" as some allege many did upon the hire of RR? No. He supported RR; there seems to be a different level of love (players, coaches, recruits, media) when it comes to Hoke. Maybe instead of everyone jumping on any possible reason to say, "See! I told you that RR was never given a fair chance!!!" they should just be happy that our current coach has been able to do a number of things that bode well for the future:
-Maintained the entire (less academic Forcier) team when folks said "they'll all leave".
-Put together a top-25 recruiting class in mere days when people said he wouldn't get 12 kids.
-Has high school coaches singing his praise.
-Has the media speaking well of Michigan football.
-Has recruits (it seems) excited to "bring back" the program.
-Never used the phrase "All In".
April 18th, 2011 at 11:45 AM ^
April 18th, 2011 at 12:02 PM ^
Oh boy...
My solution? Drop the "All in" and "better fan than you" nonsense that permeates every "RR wasn't given a fair shot" thread. RVB can say whatever he wants. Just as Stonum can say that he's much happier with the offense now. Just as Fred Jackson can say he's happier now. Just as Martin can say he's happier now. Just as some former players are happier now. There things aren't all knocks on RR; they might just be positive reflections on the current staff and atmosphere.
I'm just saying that if you want to talk about one player's statement, you should also consider the statements of other players. RR was no innocent bystander in his situation. Was it a perfect situation for him? No. But if RVB has valid input; so do many others who get slammed here for their statements about how they're happier now. In general, it's all fairly pointless. On this board, it's a contest of the extent of ones fandom (super pointless). In the real world, we have a program moving back in the right direction. The real world is good.
The first full recruiting class? You mean the one that has been around for two months?
...but I usually just say "idea" because "fucking" adds too much emphasis.
We are headed in the right direction. All of the doom & gloom of the anti-Hoke contingency has proven false thus far. I highlighted the many points elsewhere in this thread, but to summarize - we didn't lose all the team; didn't lose the recruits; fielded a top-25 class in two weeks; have the love of recruits, coaches, players and media; are starting out very strong in recruiting, etc.
The performance will indeed be the ultimate indicator, but this transition has been the opposite of what the how-dare-ye-fire-RR crowd predicted. Therefore, we're moving in the right direction.
April 18th, 2011 at 11:58 AM ^
Honestly why does everyone hate on the phrase "All in for Michigan"? Is it a little cheesy? Of course, but so is calling Ohio State "Ohio".
It's a good sentiment, saying you don't put in a little support as long as things are going well, but rather put your whole stack in play and work with the cards you're dealt.
The phrase turned into a referendum on support for Rich Rod, but that's not his fault. It was meant to be uniting, but turned divisive when we started losing and RR became a pariah among the old guard.
You say "potato" I say "whattt?".
The phrase wasn't uniting. It was used (and still is here) to thump one's superfan chest. If it was unclear that the "division" was a two-way street, think back to RR's "Detractors Not Allowed" rally (and the irony of its light attendance). The phrase (at least on this board) always referred to support for RR above and beyond support of the team. That's why it's not used anymore.
Umm that's your perception of it. I seem to recall it being printed on student t-shirts.
But presumably that was orchestrated by this blog to place worship of Rich Rod over Michigan football.
Besides, you're just as guilty of using "all in" as anyone else - sure you don't say it, but you still have the attitude of "anyone who doesn't agree with everything Brady Hoke does or even hints that Rich Rod might not have been the bastard love child of Satan and Brutus the Buckeye is ALL FOR THEMSELVES AND RICH ROD ABOVE THE TEAM"
April 19th, 2011 at 11:18 AM ^
you're just as guilty of using "all in" as anyone else - sure you don't say it, but...
Wow...that's pretty awesome. I didn't think someone could stretch logic so much, but you've done a very nice job. Just for kicks, what has Hoke done that you don't like? Was it keeping the team together? Hiring Mattison? Landing stud recruits early? Completing a top-25 class in two weeks? I'm sure he'll make a number of mistakes here, but it's not partisan to say that he's done very well do far.
O-H-I-O
Ohio Stadium
Script Ohio
So, no I don't see calling them Ohio as being cheesy.
Well generally they call themselves "THE Ohio State University", I doubt the band could spell all that, expecting OSU cheerleaders to remember more than 4 letters is a stretch, and we don't call ourselves "MICH" even though that's what they show on the TV coverage.
But anyway, no one (other than the team now, apparently) calls MSU "Lansing" - it's a turn of phrase used to diss your rival, and in that sense is a bit cheesy. That's all I meant.
April 18th, 2011 at 11:56 AM ^
If ever there was an appropriate and much-needed rallying call during the Rodriguez era, it was "All in."
Because clearly everybody was not All In. And things could have been better if everybody had been All In.
But if it bothers you so much, dahblue, I won't say it anymore. I am not All In. Feel better now?
Actually, we had a great phrase - Go Blue!
"All in" was and is devisive. The "Detractors Not Allowed" speech only makes things worse. Regardless of the bumper sticker, things could have been better if a number of things happened differently...many of those are decisions made by RR which didn't work out for the best. That's why we're beginning a new era now.
But instead, we got "Lloyd Carr's University of Michigan." That's what I'm talking about. I still don't understand why 500 Michigan football letterwinners didn't call Braylon's ass out on that one. As it was, a hundred or more did (sort of), led by Rick Leach and Jim Brandstatter, at the Michigan Theatre, and they got ridiculed for it by the smart asses on sportstalk radio.
And that is why "All In" had some relevance.
Without bullet-point listings of Braylon's character flaws, I find it hilarious that you use Rich Leach as a character reference.
April 18th, 2011 at 10:16 AM ^
There WAS a meet-n-greet when RR got to town (just like there was Friday with Coach Hoke and his staff). RR was very personable and did what he could to endear himself to the former players. RR had an up hill battle from the get-go; first, there was a group who felt Miles should have been the coach, and second, nobody was familiar with RR and his staff. So from the very beginning, support was fractured. To RR's credit, he was all business, worked his ass off, and remained positive despite the mounting pressure.
He endured the worst season of Michigan football in its 130 year history. That's going to alienate a lot of people, most especially former players who feel like they are the rightful owners of Michigan football. The more the defense faltered the more it distanced him from everybody. I am confident RR would be here today and we would all be excited as hell for the upcoming season if he could have avoided one thing: the worst Michigan defense ever in 2010. He made a fatal decision for not taking as much interest in his defense as he did his offense. He gave the keys to a guy who simply was not capable of producing. That cost him him any remnants of support from the former players, and ultimately his job.
"... there was a group who felt Miles should have been the coach ..."
This possibility is a head-asplode one for RichRod haters.
April 18th, 2011 at 10:39 AM ^
There is a difference between ex-players not being around the program and them not caring about the program. Unless you are inside the administrative offices of Schembechler Hall, nobody can prove one way or the other which side was at fault. But there are as many, many people that believe RR pushed the old guard (no, not the Justin Boren - the fat guard) away instead of the ex-players disassociating voluntarilly. I'm pretty sure RVB does not know what was going on behind the scenes either...
April 18th, 2011 at 11:06 AM ^
This is a great point... for intstance, Braylon's MNF introduction where he says "Lloyd Carr's University Of Michigan." Yes, kind of a dick-ish thing to say and doesn't help at all, but how many players would go to that much trouble to publicly express how they feel regarding the situation at their alma mater. Helpful/tactful/classy? No. Shows he cares? Yes.
I just sincerely doubt that all these former players decided "Hmm the new coach is from West Virginia? Screw it, I don't care about Michigan football anymore."
April 18th, 2011 at 11:50 AM ^
I sincerely doubt the new staff decided "screw these alumni guys, we're from West Virginia!" either.
Actually, I wonder how much of this may have had to do with a sense that Lloyd was forced out, or that his system was being repudiated? That's something related to the hiring of RR without really being Rich Rod's fault. Bill Martin probably could have done more to help here as well.
April 18th, 2011 at 11:56 AM ^
As much as I appreciate all of Bill Martin's work as AD, I really think he could have helped RR a lot more. I know he's not the marketing guy David Brandon is but I really wish he would have helped RR navigate some of the bigger issues like traditions, alums, etc. Seeing Brandon's Brady Hoke-PR train full spead ahead makes me wonder how it would have been if RR had benefited from the same thing.
April 18th, 2011 at 12:00 PM ^
By the accounts of both Carr and Bill Martin, Carr talked about leaving before Bo died. Carr talked to Bo about leaving. Martin asked Carr to stay on longer than Carr had thought he would. Just as Martin stayed much longer than he had planned.
So; no. Wrong. Fail. Carr was never "forced out."
April 18th, 2011 at 12:20 PM ^
Not saying he actually was, but it's undeniable that Lloyd's support was eroding in his last few seasons. And to hire someone so much outside of the Lloyd mold had to look like a repudiation to some of the former players.
My only point is that some players may have been "defending Lloyd" rather than "attacking Rich" - in other words whoever got hired would have faced resistance. Not that that justifies anything, but we're talking personalities and egos, not justice here.
April 18th, 2011 at 10:47 AM ^
I can't say I see what's so great about this.
April 18th, 2011 at 10:54 AM ^
I've made it very clear how I feel about RR and how much the entire coaching search/change took out of me, but all of that aside I'm really happy that RVB had the balls to say something that many, many others have also observed. I went to Braylon's charity hoops game on Friday night and noticed that the very last page in the game's program is a "Welcome home, Coach Hoke!" full-page "ad" from Braylon. I'm happy the family's back together, I fully support Hoke but it's almost like the awkward holiday dinner with your extended family where everyone smiles and forgets the underlying domestic drama from the recent past. Like I said, I completely support Hoke but I really, really hate our fanbase and am not sure I'm ready to play nice just yet.
While it's difficult to say what the response would be had DB not hired a "Michigan Man" to "return us to glory", the language was clear throughout the search. I remember seeing folks in Stanford gear in the Big House as early as the Iowa game. A vocal division of the fanbase who was vehemently anti-RR did not just want a replacement, they wanted Jimmy Harbaugh, a "Michigan Man" who could "return us to glory". (PS: I have always hated that term. Always.)
The point is we have a coach we're (hopefully) all ready to get behind and rebuild with. Angelique just tweeted this at me: "I asked RVB toward the very end of interviews and was surprised. I'm sort of sick of the 'how's it better than last 3 years' storyline." She also tweeted at me that RVB's eyes flashed when he said this, that he was fired up. He will totally be a leader of this team!
April 18th, 2011 at 10:56 AM ^
Co-signed!
Thanks for this. I couldn't have typed it better myself - it's like you were reading my mind!
As is often the case with family, it takes time to heal after something like this. And I'm not healed yet, despite everyone telling me that I should be.