OT: Tigers' rubber match at 2:00 today; ChiSox giving up?
The Tigers are looking to take the rubber match game against the White Sox today, to win the series 2-1. If they do manage to win today, that will wrap up a very good 5-2 road trip against division opponents. After winning yesterday, they are already guaranteed to have a winning record on this trip, which is great, so today just offers a chance at some icing on the cake and some momentum as they head home for 7 straight against the Angels and Rangers.
In other, semi-related news, did the white flag just go up today from the Sox? ESPN is reporting that they have traded Edwin Jackson and Mark Teahen to the Jays for RP Jason Frasor and a minor league pitcher. Jackson has arguably been one of Chicago's top 3 starters this season, and they didn't really get much in return. Is this the beginning of a Chicago firesale? I am hesitant to make any declaration one way or the other, depending on how you view GM Kenny Williams' comment (per ESPN):
"The three-game series against the Tigers... [will] determine whether the White Sox [will] be buyers or sellers at the trade deadline [this Sunday]."
If it is the beginning of the Sox giving up, I think this was a premature move. Maybe Williams just got upset after the loss last night, had a little too much to drink and then made the move? I don't know, especially since the trade seems like a net loss in the short run. I know there are some Sox fans on here; what do you guys think about this move?
DISCUSS.
For some reason I've always liked Juan.
I'd take Buehrle if they were willing to give him up. The chances of them trading their ace to a division rival though? 1:1,000,000.
Other than that, nope.
This is not a white flag trade in the slightest. I am a White Sox fan. I will try to illuminate the situation for you.
The White Sox have been running a 6-man rotation to the mound for the greater part of the year (since Peavy returned). With the emergence of Humber, it has worked out pretty well, though, Peavy is still leaving much to be desired. However, even with the trade of Jackson, the White Sox will still run Buehrle, Danks, Floyd, Peavy and Humber as their five-man rotation. That is still pretty stellar, especially the way most of them have been pitching. Jackson had been pitching well of late, but he has still been a highly inconsistent pitcher in his short tenure on the Sox.
This may also be addition from subtraction, because the way this deal works is they have added a pitcher to the bullpen and subtracted one from the rotation, yielding a net loss of zero pitchers. The prospect will likely go to the minors (Stewart). With the addition of salary suck, Mark Teahen, to the trade, it frees up a roster spot to finally bring up Dayan Viciedo, who has been killing the ball in AAA. The Sox offense needs a jolt, and Kenny probably thought it better to shed some salary and add the offense from within.
I think this is a good move, and is most assuredly not a white flag move. An efficient shedding of salary allowing for a good move, that has been long awaited, from within.
I see what you're saying with the rotation. And in that sense, Frasor has been a solid reliever so far this year. But then, why get rid of Jackson? As inconsistent as he has been, I think he's better than Peavy, and he's been helathy. When healthy, Peavy has gotten jacked after the first couple of times through opponent's batting orders. Maybe that's why they made the investment to improve their bullpen?
Because Peavy is more untradeable than head lice. His contract is an anchor. No one in their right minds would take him. Looks like the move is to bring up Alejandro de Aza, who has also been performing quite well in AAA.
Peavy's and Rios' contracts are cancerous.
Head lice can be traded quite easily. Consult your local doctor.
Somehow I doubted Peavy would work out that well, being a flyball pitcher leaving the best pitchers park in baseball to the most hitter friendly.
but with what the Jays intentions were for Ejax to trade for rasmus why didnt the Sox just do this? doesnt matter i guess im a tigers fan and im happy Rasmus isnt in the division and Ejax isnt in the division anymore. i dont think the White Sox are going to win the division though because if they lose tonight they could presumably trade their best hitter, Carlos Quentin, to the phillies. As good as the rotation is for the White Sox their Bullpen is 3x worse, not saying the tigers bullpen is better, just we have a better back end of the bullpen in valverde and benoit/ Al Alburqurque. Look for the tigers to make a big trade for a starting pitcher though i think Mike I wants to win now and would approve that would include Jacob Turner, Andy Oliver, Bruce Rondon, Francisco Martinez, and Ryan Strieby/Danny Worth for Ubaldo Jimenez or someone of that caliber. The tigers have a much better offense than the White Sox and the addition of another consistent starting pitcher will put them over the top with the addition by subtraction of brandon inge and carlos Guillen returning. Now for Raburn to either start his second half mashing or leave
If we trade all that for Jimenez I'll shit my pants. Seriously. The guy is 6-9 with a 4+ ERA in the NL west. Yeah, he had a good 1st half last year, but come on. Jair Jurrjens has something to say about selling the farm.
in the JJ trade, he had injury worries and wasnt a very promising prospect and we needed a shortstop badly.
As someone stuck in the Rockies footprint, I've seen my share of Jimenez pitch. Look at his road numbers, he is good. The guy can pitch really well, is young and under a very good contract. If it were up to me, I would trade 3 or 4 top prospects in a heartbeat for him.
...will second Jair Jurrijens motions
Can we as a planet, please stop this?
John Smoltz didn't know he was going to be John Smoltz back then. Doyle Alexander went 9-0 with a 1.49 ERA after that trade. He was a COLLOSAL asset to the Tigers getting into the post season. There's no telling that if they DON'T trade Smoltz that they miss the playoffs and he gets hit by a car the next day and dies. Seriously, at the time it was a phenomenol trade...after their careers are over not so much.
Would you undo the Miguel Cabrera trade? you traded 'the farm' including a 'cant miss LHP and OF' which turned into trading a fat sack of douche fluid for one of the best hitters in the game and Dontrelle Willis.
You have to give up something to get something. Sometimes its John Smoltz before he's John Smoltz; sometimes its a fat sack of garbage.
Thank you. Every time someone brings up Jair Jurrgens a piece of me dies.
You show me a top tier player that has been with one organization, I'll show you 10 who haven't.
exactly.
see: Joey Bats (Jose Bautista) he was with 5 different teams in a month a few years ago now he's the premeir HR hitter in the league.
Yeah, I don't know why people get on Dombrowski for his track record with trades. He's not batting 1.000 (no one is), but he's made his share of heists. The Peralta trade last year is looking like one.
I'd rather have the Sox bullpen than the Tigers, and it's not even close either.
http://www.fangraphs.com/teams.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=al&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011
...the Sox BP is not more desirable than the Tigers. I'd take the Tigers 10 times out of 10. Perhaps if we ignore the 7, 8, 9 inning guys, the Sox would look more enticing. But in each of these scenarios who would you rather have...
Santos/Valverde
Crain/Benoit
Thornton or Sale /Albuquerque
The Tigers are stronger where it counts most. Sometimes middle relief makes a difference, but usually when they're pitching their team trails big anyway. Benoit had a rough start, but he's lights out right now...I'll take the Tigers.
1) The Tigers have no lefthander worth anything at all. The Sox have two of them.
2) I'd take Santos over Valverde all day, because he's a better pitcher (strikes out more, walks less). He doesn't have the long-term track record (largely because he was a shortstop a few years ago), but he was at least as good as Valverde last year, and he's better than Valverde this year.
3) Crain's pitched better than Benoit this year too.
Albuquerque has been damn good. Other than that, give me the Sox bullpen.
1) tigers have both Furbush and Purcey who have been solid who have stuggled of late.
2) Valverde is so much better than santos it isnt even funny, Valverde has yet to blow a save this year, and has been a great closer when he isnt injured. Who was the AL All-Star closer this year?
3) Crain is nothing special and the tigers showed that the other night and benoit had a few rough outings earlier this year but has been good ever since those few in may.
Tigers bullpen all day
SO to walk ratio is meaningless in my mind for closers. Their job is to get saves, and Valverde has done that every time this year, like you say.
I also think WHIP is a stupid stat for starters. If one starter gives up 3 ER / game for 10 years but loads the bases every inning, and another gives up 3ER/ game for 10 years but gives up no walks or hits, haven't they essentially accomplished the same thing in terms of how they effect the team's ability to win?
WHIP is related to how many pitches are thrown in an inning, which related to how deep into a game a starter goes.
I guess what I was trying to say is at the end of the day if two pitchers give up the same number of runs in the same number of innings (given your point), I'm not sure the number of baserunners they let on really matters.
that the Sox don't have the better left handed pitching in the bullpen, but Coke has been good since moving back to the pen and Furbush has been solid this season out of the pen.
That sucks.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Seems awfully premature. They're only 4.5 back. That's a manageable number. And while they do have the Red Sox and Yankees coming in next -- Chicago will be lucky to go 4-4 -- the Tigers don't exactly have it easy over the next week, either: Angels and Rangers. So I don't see the Sox folding now, unless there's something we're missing.
Edwin Jackson's going to give Mike Morgan a run for his money before it's all said and done.
Edwin Jackson is an inconsistent plug in a 6-man rotation. They basically picked up a reliever without harming their team.
Not a white flag.
Boy, Jackson sure does get tossed around the league like rag-doll. I know he faded down the stretch when he was in Detroit. But I really liked him. He pitched well for much of the season, and he ate up innings. He was said to be a good clubhouse guy, too. Or no?
Jeez, I would be afraid to unpack my suitcase if I was him.
Teahen and his wife are hosting a charity event in Chicago tonight. Nice timing.
I saw that Dotel was involved in that trade also. That is another guy that gets moved around once a month.
He is now tied with the aforementioned Mike Morgan for most teams played on as St. Louis is the 12th diffferent team he has pitched for.
Brad Ausmus sneers: "Yeah, but only one stint per team."
I dont think this is the Sox giving up but I dont think the Sox will win the division. I still see it as Tigers-Indians.
If that's the way you see it, then it's just the Tigers! Hey-oh!
Seriously, I don't think the Indians have a chance at all with the roster/rotation they have right now, and I don't think they're willing to make the moves necessary to put themselves in a better position. They've been sliding steadily for the past couple of months now, and if the Tigers trade for a SP to shore up their rotation, I don't think the Indians have a chance. As long as the Sox don't pout and say "I'm done," I think they provide the biggest threat to Detroit winning the division (besides, of course, the Tigers themselves).
They were already making noises about wanting another righty for the pen, and Jackson was always the starter that was going to be traded. And they got someone to take Teahen's contract (he's signed for next year too at another 5 million, was an idiotic extension when Williams did it a couple years ago). Even after the trade, the Sox have 4 starters better than either the Tigers' or Indians #2 starters, it's a much deeper rotation still, and their bullpen is markedly better (at least by fWAR) than either the Tribe's or Tigers' as well.
Also, they finally called up someone to take a bunch of Rios' at bats. If they were giving up they'd just let Rios flail out there for the rest of the year since they're already paying him anyway.
Four pitchers better than the Tigers' #2 starter? Better in what sense? That seems like an exaggeration to me. Out of the four starters for the Sox you refer to (I'm assuming you're not referring to Peavy), only Danks and Floyd project to maintain or improve upon their performances so far this season, and even then they are no better than Scherzer. Humber and Buehrle both project to decline in their performances, and Humber has never pitched more than 140 innings in a season. Take a look at the stats:
Scherzer
- ERA: 4.35
- WHIP: 1.37
- xFIP: 3.86
- K/9: 7.55
- BB/9: 2.78
Buehrle
- ERA: 3.22
- WHIP: 1.26
- xFIP: 4.08
- K/9: 4.84
- BB/9: 1.95
Floyd
- ERA: 4.11
- WHIP: 1.20
- xFIP: 3.80
- K/9: 6.38
- BB/9: 2.20
Danks
- ERA: 3.92
- WHIP: 1.32
- xFIP: 3.91
- K/9: 6.33
- BB/9: 2.58
Humber
- ERA: 3.27
- WHIP: 1.08
- xFIP: 3.94
- K/9: 5.81
- BB/9: 2.23
Buehrle pretty consistently outperforms his advanced stats, he's a sui generis kind of guy. They'll never figure out why he almost always beats the projections and advanced stats, he just does.
Scherzer reminds me a lot of Floyd actually. Great stuff, but prone to not pitching up to it.
And if we're going to use FIP/xFIP, Peavy's better than everyone of the Tigers starters except Verlander...
Jackson is going to be traded from Toronto to St. Louis in a deal that will net the Blue Jays Colby Rasmus. What a great deal for the Blue Jays.
The Sox bullpen is not markedly better than Detroit's. Granted, Detroit's middle-relief is middling. But their closer is an All-Star who leads the league in saves (27 for 27) and one of their two set-up guys (AA) has been pretty lights-out. Only Benoit has struggled, but less so lately. I'll take Detroit's 7-8-9 guys over pretty much anyone's.
AA has been good. I'd rather have the four guys the Sox have (Santos, Thornton, Crain and Sale) than the three the Tigers have, Valverde is vastly overrated because of the Cult of the Save, he's not very good. Better than the other garbage the Tigers toss out in the pen besides AA and Benoit, but not that good.
Come on man. I'm not saying Valverde is Mariano Rivera. I'm not saying he's great either. But he's definitely better than "not very good."
Maybe "not very good" goes overboard. He's really overpaid though, and you'd like to see your relief ace either strike out more guys or walk fewer guys.
Eh, that would be nice, but I'd prefer to see him successfully close out games.
As long as he doesn't blow any saves (which he hasn't this season), I'm fine with the lack of strikeouts and walks.