O-Line Transfers
In the wake of the latest departure by an O-Lineman, who cited lack of family values, not getting along with the coaches, etc; it has become pretty obvious to me that some of these guys that expected to play for Lloyd can't handle the physical demands that Rich Rod puts on his Linemen.
When you are 50 pounds overweight and have never done any kind of intense conditioning, and were talented enough to play for a High Major Program why would you want to?
If I was getting pushed to the limit by Barwis everyday when I wasn't expecting to ever have to put that kind of work in I wouldn't get along with the coaches either. Not to mention, most likely getting reamed by RR and Barwis daily for not putting enough effort in.
The intensity of the program seems to me to be a bit of a weed out process to see who can hang and who can't and some of these big linemen (Boren) can't. Personally, I don't think these guys are telling the whole story.
If I remember correctly, transfers from other positions like Clemons, Mallet, Threet, have not fit the system. A legit reason to transfer IMO. The ultimate goal is the NFL for these guys so why play in a system where you won't develop the way you could somewhere else? No excuse for an O-Line transfer to a school thats a clear step down other than not being able to meet the demands of the coaching staff.
You would want to because you committed to do it and you have a shred of honor.
But other than that, you wouldn't.
less to do with "family values" (what a joke) than it is to do with "I am a pansy and can't get my fat ass out of bed". I do idsagree with one point you made though....50 lbs over weight....dude, some of these guys are well over 300 pounds, far more than 50 lbs over weight.
And another reason...."I am never going to see the 2-deep so why should I work so hard..."
Before you shred these kids to pieces, I have to ask: Have you ever tried to do a Barwis workout? If so, have you tried it 5 days a week, for a year and a half?
I know that I wouldn't go through all of that just to be buried on the depth chart.
All recruits and prospects meet Barwis and get demonstrations. They now know what they are getting into it. Carr's holdover recruits perhaps didn't have that opportunity before signing their NLOI. Plus current recruits can talk to the Michigan players to get an idea of what they're getting into. Barwis' workout regime is difficult, but many other top level schools have just as good S&C programs.
I agree. I was more talking about calling ever player who transfers a pansy because "they can't hack it". I doubt 99% of the posters on this board, myself included, would be able to make it through a week of Barwis hell before quitting.
Wemers is transferring to another team, closer to his home and where a lot of his high school buddies play. It had become very clear that he wouldn't have much of a chance to play here. He clearly loves football more than Michigan, and he probably has a better shot at the NFL if he goes to Ball State and gets some playing time.
He could have handled it better, and not been such a douche with the parting comments, but its too late for that now.
i agree with the fact that most people can't handle a Barwis workout... hell most high school football players cant handle a Barwis workout. I've heard some of the workouts that they've had to do and i would barely be able to do a station of their rotation.
I don't think the NFL is the top goal for Wermers. He was getting a serious degree at Michigan. He was recruited by Lloyd and liked Michigan enough to stick it out and try the system with Rodriguez. Apparently the workouts were making football no longer fun and seeing unfair advantages going to other players, the environment was as family-like. If you know some of the details behind this this really seems so trivial and pointless and the only reason its this big of a deal is because there's NOTHING else going on right now.
How do we know that Wermers and/or O'Neill were fifty pounds overweight? It could be that they just weren't happy and didn't think they meshed with the new staff and offensive philosophy, so, they decided to transfer. BTW, I seriously doubt that OSU's S&C program is any less strenuous than ours.
Not that I really want to defend him or anything, but I don't think Boren is the best example of someone who can't hang with the intensity of the new program. Wasn't his transfer more of a "they won't give my little brother an offer" issue than getting weeded out?
Yes, and, his entire family didn't seem to like Rich Rod. It is for the good of all parties involved that Boren is out of Ann Arbor.
From what I remember, Carr used to give him time off to go plow snow with his dad and brothers and RR said that if he didn't put the time in like everyone else, he would be a step behind and probably wouldn't have a chance to start. He took it as Football > Family and family value issues was born.
Boren was singled out for praise by Barwis and RR as being one of the hardest workers at Spring Practice last year. He left, it seems, because his brother didn't get offered - not because he couldn't hack it.
That was just from memory. I thought I remembered seing an interview with him about it. But if that's the case, then so be it.
I wasn't saying anything about Boren's work ethic or character. I was trying to point out RR's policy when it comes to missing practice.
WEEEEE, anecdotal evidence is FUN!
Boren may have been a bad example, Wermers on the other hand is a perfect example. I guarantee OSU's S&C program is much less strenuous on the OL when it comes to endurance conditioning, which is really tough for those big dudes. RRs program is almost like soccer. Constant running. no breaks.
Can you guarantee it?
I seriously doubt that you have any evidence at all to back up such a claim.
My evidence is the Universally known fact that Michigan has one of the toughest S&C programs in the country. Also, just compare the way player's bodies (especially O-line) change from high school to their sophomore year. UM linemen get leaner and faster, OSU linemen get bigger and stronger. The bottom line is linemen are used to busting their asses lifting. They aren't used to running up and down the big house stands constantly
My evidence is the Universally known fact that Michigan has one of the toughest S&C programs in the country.
So, your evidence is your own baseless assertion.
the evidence is right in front of you. look at the player development.
http://www.freep.com/article/20080113/SPORTS06/801130688/
"Occasionally, some people do go the other way when it's a little too much work for them. Regardless, it's a system where we work, we work hard, we expect to outwork the opponent, we will outwork the opponent, and we're going to provide the tools, direction and the energy to do so. When you're tired and don't feel like doing it, you're going to do it anyway. It's a pretty simple process."
More:
http://www.mgoblue.com/football/article.aspx?id=111612
You have to be kidding me. There is no evidence whatsoever that our S&C program is considerably tougher than OSU's.
Uhh.. those are still not the best cases of "evidence." I will note that I had a summer class (Sports and Daily Life in Ancient Rome) with a lot of athletes, many of whom were football players and they were ALWAYS bitchin' about how sore their legs were from running and how many times Barwis made them redo their runs.
Great class btw, no matter what Carty says.
An 18-month old article and the S & C program's officially produced (by a marketing firm, no doubt) webpage? That's your evidence?
You FAIL.
and he said that he says fuck a lot. I don't like that because Gittleson had better family values. Oh, and he said Barwis has the toughest S&C program in the country, way tougher than OSU.
BAM! There's your evidence bitches.
BOOM, MEMED.
...that happens anywhere where they play college football.
Or anywhere where high school seniors turn into college sophomores.
Can you give me a link to "the Universally known fact that Michigan has one of the toughest S&C programs in the country." If it's as "universally known" as you claim it shouldn't be hard to find a link.
If it's just your E-Pinion, say so.
I understand your point that everyone has a tough S&C program, but he may have a valid point that it is a little more difficult on the lineman due to the running. I think Barwis has admitted as much. I think you can look at the USC and Florida games when the Tackles were run around and they were exposed as thundering elephants that OSU may focus on strength for the OL vs Quickness which isn't easier but may be more what they are accustomed to.
Well, it could be that Florida was just more talented than Ohio st.
Or it could be what Ziff said. There, now I'm the contrarian. (sorry, couldn't resist)
Maybe not so odd that of all the transfers since RR's arrival it's the O-linemen that sees the most attrition/trash talking.
Some weeding out with Barwis and/or issues with Greg Frey?
I suppose that of all offensive positions, the Carr-recruited O-line was the most dissimilar to a RR spread O-line.
They have to transform their bodies and learn a new style of play. It might not matter how much they lift, some will never have feet quick enough for RR, and it MIGHT seem unfair.
They have probably been taking a bigger mental and physical beating than everyone else.
There is NO excuse for slamming the program however.
Does anyone know what the transfer numbers were for RR at WVU and what positions they played?
but according to the Spring Roster on mgoblue.com, Wermers weighed 289, not exactly "50 pounds overweight," at least not for a college O-Lineman.
until you tacked on the last part.
He's 6 foot 4, right? Anything over 220 is overweight for his body.
But again "overweight" and "overweight for a lineman" are two different things. As a member of the general population, Jake Long was overweight. Alex Mitchell was overweight "for a lineman".
It's the whole "Shaq is obese" argument. As human beings, our o-lineman may be overweight for their size. However, as human beings, our o-lineman are freakishly strong for their size. In comparison to all other o-lineman, I do not know the answer.
I don't think Wermers was "overweight for a lineman." But, in general, overweight? Probably.
As a public health professional, I can tell you that measuring obesity using BMI is not the most accurate method. It is simply weight/height^2... no regard for body type (i.e. ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph) or variable distributions of weight per tissue type. We use it because it's easy. Just sayin'... "overweight" as measured by BMI shouldn't reflect health status, but typically people tie in value judgments with such terminology
Anyone else notice that most (all except 1 I believe) of the transfers have been on the O side of the ball? You would expect this ratio to be closer to 50:50, right?
This is more than a coincidence, IMO. When RichRod took over the program, the most dramatic change occurred to the offensive skill set that was required from the players. The O-line had to be lean and mean, and the receivers and backs had to be shifty with the ability to maneuver in traffic.
I believe many of the players from the previous regime that have transferred either did not fit this description or did not want to do the work required to fit in with the new system.
Defensively, there's virtually no depth. Why would you transfer if you're practically guaranteed to get significant playing time?
Obviously, Mallett, Threet, and Boren were special cases (they either didn't fit the system at all or they were a bit crazy), but in general, there's enough depth on the OL and at WR to see the writing on the wall. Thus the Clemons, Babb, Horn, O'Neill, and Wermers defections.
If there was a "true erosion of family values", how come it is only affecting the offensive players? What, the defensive players don't care about family values???
Better guess is the players who don't see a fast road to playing time and who are not truly 100% committed Michigan Men will probably transfer.
IMO, if you transfer just because you can get early playing time, as opposed to working you tail off and earning it, you were at the wrong school anyway.
...especially because transferring means you won't play at all the next season.
I think that the "system" issue applies to O-Linemen as much as it does to a QB, WR or anybody else. Linemen most likely want to play in a system that will get them to the NFL. You don't see any NFL teams playing a spread option offense (although many teams are using the Wildcat formation on occasion).
How many linemen did RR put into the NFL at WVU? I think that he had one good center that hasn't done much at the next level.
We don't know if O'Neill or Wermers were NFL level talent. My guess is that they wouldn't have gone to MAC schools if they are. However, you can't really blame them (or Mallett, or Threet or Clemons) if they choose to find a better fit that's more in line with what they signed up for.
Look, he was WVU, of course not many linemen will make it into to the league. Henderson is the #1 overall recruit in the nation and we are in his top 5. Taylor Lewan is being compared to Jake Long. In the NFL draft, Jason Smith was the first offensive linemman taking, and he played in a spread offense.
Overweight is a relative term. Let's not be ridiculous in our interpretations of it. We are clearly talking about football.
If we were talking about general health guidelines, the great Tate Forcier, who's about 6 feet tall, should be 157-170 pounds. Since I think he's about 185 now, OMG he's 15 pounds overweight send in Richard Simmons!
Wermers wasn't anywhere close to 50 pounds overweight unless you're a football imbecile. Neither was Dann O'Neill. In fact, if Wermers were 275 instead of 289, we'd say he was under weight.
This thread is silly. Maybe I'll go post in the "Does anyone really think there is anything left to talk about?" thread.
I think the coaching staff not offering the DT Hankins, even though he has several other high end offers and would likely commit, shows a lot about the strength and conditioning program. They know its tough, and if you aren't up to it you are likely to quit. They still honored the schollarships of the kids Carr recruited but they all have to put in the same effort in S&C. They have to love football to be able to put up with the demands, especially as a lineman when you are doing sprints and weigh around 300 lbs.
This attitude if very reminiscent of Bo, for whom football came first, and if given the choice the team would spend 24 hours a day preparing for Saturdays.
Some people think he is making up the "high end offers". It is pretty telling that the 2 in-state programs have not offered him.
Yeah, I'm not sold on Hankins at all. DT depth is low nationwide in this recruiting class, DT depth is dismal at UM and he STILL didn't get an offer. Kid can't be too good.
It must be said that OL is probably the position where recruiting evaluations are the least accurate. OL recruits almost never face difficult competition in high school, and many of them arrive needing to add a lot of weight before they can compete at a college level. By the time they do add that weight, many of them have lost the mobility that made them highly-regarded in the first place. If you go back and look at our recruiting classes over the past decade, you'll see quite a few "busts" at the OL position. And then there are guys like Long who weren't highly rated, but turned into stars.
Given that O'Neill and Wermers are now enrolled at MAC schools, the most straightforward conclusion is that they probably weren't as good as it seemed when they were recruits. It happens.
O'Neill is at WMU because he's from that side of the state, and his brother is already on the team.
Wermers went to Ball State, which has a 5-6 of his old high school teammates.
I have no idea where else they could have gone, but I think that it was a more comfortable setting to go to those schools, as opposed to somewhere like Wisconsin.