Michigan messenger: MSU Basketball players accused of sexual assault

Submitted by BillyShears on September 29th, 2010 at 1:07 PM

http://michiganmessenger.com/42253/msu-sexual-assault

 

That is the link. Michigan Messenger is a pretty reputable political site and I don't think they would report this unless they were sure. No names are listed, please refrain from guessing. It goes into some detail so be aware before you click on the link.

Comments

Blazefire

September 29th, 2010 at 1:20 PM ^

 

ಠ_ಠ is in fact actually mute in real life. He has learned to communicate through facial expressions indicating his thoughts or aims. And as we all know, for all intents and purposes, the internet has only ever produced two reactions in people. "LOL" and ಠ_ಠ.

bronxblue

September 29th, 2010 at 1:17 PM ^

This is the type of article that I don't think anyone can "gloat" about.  Sure, if it is true it casts a dark shadow on the MSU basketball team, but the victim was still sexually assaulted.  Doing dumb things with fire crackers or punching engineering students is one thing (though obviously the latter is worse than the former), but nobody wins with alleged rape.  Thanks for the link, but I don't see how anything good will come from this story. 

bronxblue

September 29th, 2010 at 1:32 PM ^

I totally agree that the charges, if true, should be prosecuted and the parties punished to the fullest extent of the law.  My point is more that if the OP wanted to highlight some "failing" of MSU through this story, I don't see that being appropriate.  It is just a sad story all around.

4godkingandwol…

September 29th, 2010 at 1:38 PM ^

... inepptitude.  Either way, it seems like an enormous mistake not to pursue this further.  The girls last quote is kinda heartwrenching.  What she must be going through right now is horrible... the self-doubt, the helplessness, the fear.  Just sad.

jmblue

September 29th, 2010 at 1:25 PM ^

Despite the allegations, prosecutors have declined to take up the case, and the victim disputes the reasons offered for not bringing charges.

This sounds like an ugly story no matter what happens. 

4godkingandwol…

September 29th, 2010 at 1:41 PM ^

did you read the part about her saying no and striking the man.  Also the part about the other player corroberating the alleged victim's story?

No means no.  It's not rocket science.  Once someone says no, you stop.  Once someone hits you, you stop. 

I agree though, don't release names until charges are pressed. 

steelymax

September 29th, 2010 at 1:57 PM ^

From what I understood, the other player corroberated the story inasmuch that sexual act(s) occurred, not necessarily that the woman said "no" (that part was inferred by you).

Again, this is what I understand from the article. I've no additional knowledge of the situation. Who knows if anyone's telling the truth?

4godkingandwol…

September 29th, 2010 at 2:09 PM ^

He told investigators that when it was clear from the victim’s statements that she did not want to have sex, he stopped. However, the other player continued “despite her reluctance and statements that she did not want to continue.” The victim confirms that player’s account...

...The player then said a second time that he stopped when she said to, but the other player “coaxed” her into continuing the sexual activity.

Either you didn't read the article fully or you don't know the meaning of infer.  It's pretty explicit that she told them to stop.  One guy did, the other guy coerced her to continue.  This was the guys version. Not hers. 

steelymax

September 29th, 2010 at 2:30 PM ^

This statement “despite her reluctance and statements that she did not want to continue" followed by “'coaxed' her into continuing" doesn't jive with your characterization of the entire incident as "no means no".

I'm not saying that no assault occurred, only that the article leads me to believe that it didn't occur. Everything we've read is third or fourth hand knowledge. More evidence needs to come to light other than hearsay. Unlike you, my mind isn't made up about what really happened.

4godkingandwol…

September 29th, 2010 at 3:41 PM ^

Unlike you, my mind isn't made up about what really happened.

 

Really?  My position is that it should be looked into further and reexamined, indicating that the stories provided warrant further scrutiny of the handling of the case.  I go so far as to agree that the names shouldn't be released until charges are pressed.    You read one article and say it's not assault.  Whose mind is made up in this?

Wolverine96

September 29th, 2010 at 2:11 PM ^

Uhhh, I would think you should re-read the article. It is rather clear the the alleged victim was not a willing participant and the MSU player corroborated her statement to police. 

During his interview with detectives, the one player who volunteered a statement corroborated much of the victim’s statement, the report shows. He told investigators that when it was clear from the victim’s statements that she did not want to have sex, he stopped. However, the other player continued “despite her reluctance and statements that she did not want to continue.” The victim confirms that player’s account.

The player told detectives he was concerned “over the girl’s reaction to the circumstances,” noting she was “timid” and “not aggressive.” The player then admitted to detectives that he understood how the woman believed she was not welcome to leave the room, in part because she kept referencing that the two were “bigger” than her.

The player then said a second time that he stopped when she said to, but the other player “coaxed” her into continuing the sexual activity.

The player told detectives that he and the other player should apologize because he felt the two had “disrespected” the woman.

steelymax

September 29th, 2010 at 2:39 PM ^

After her "reluctance", the victim was also  "coaxed" into continuing (according to the player).

Can't just pick and choose what you want to hear.

That being said, "coaxed" and "coerced" are two different things. The former implies choice, the latter force. They are not the same.

steelymax

September 29th, 2010 at 4:01 PM ^

I see - to you, the problem is not that I'm focusing on only one part of the statement, but that I'm focusing on the wrong part.

I'm not saying, "hey, it's okay because he said they coaxed her". But equally, you can't say, "it's rape because she said she didn't want to."

Neither statement is the entire statement (if the statement is to believed at all).

So back to my original point: you can't pick and choose what to focus on, the statement must be taken in its entirety.

Carcajous

September 29th, 2010 at 4:09 PM ^

I didn't say it was rape... or wasn't rape.  That is where you go off the rails repeatedly.  I merely pointed out that you were doing the same thing (hypocritically) that you accused others of doing.   Period.  

Show me where I take a stand on the case as you have done repeatedly... show me one instance...

I'm still waiting.

steelymax

September 29th, 2010 at 4:25 PM ^

Wow, you still don't get it.

Here's everyone: "I'm only gonna focus on this one part of the statement!"

Here's me: "Focusing on one part of the statement is dumb because one could focus on this other part and come to a different conclusion."

Here's you: "That's hypocritical to focus on one part of the statement!"

Yeah, it's hypocritical. That's the point, genius.

steelymax

September 29th, 2010 at 4:43 PM ^

Instead of saying "no assault occurred", I should've said, "I'm not convinced an assault occurred". In other words, based on the article, I've reached no conclusion.

And you're so misunderstanding the other post, I don't know where to begin. It was an attempt to point out the ridiculousness of your charge. I'm being hypocritical as much as you are advocating a conviction based on hearsay... which is to say, not at all.

South Lyon Sparty

September 29th, 2010 at 4:48 PM ^

Ingham County Prosecutor Stuart Dunnings has never hesitated to prosecute MSU athletes before, i.e. Rather Hall.

But, in the article...

"In a statement dated Sept. 14 and released on Friday, Dunnings says charging a criminal sexual conduct case “requires the element of force and/or coercion.” He said numerous prosecutors of both genders reviewed the case report and “none could find any of these necessary elements.” "

He'd nail them if he could,... but who knows what really happened?

The fact that the alleged incident occured in a dorm room should tell you something.

Cheri

September 29th, 2010 at 2:18 PM ^

From the article

During his interview with detectives, the one player who volunteered a statement corroborated much of the victim’s statement, the report shows. He told investigators that when it was clear from the victim’s statements that she did not want to have sex, he stopped. However, the other player continued “despite her reluctance and statements that she did not want to continue.” The victim confirms that player’s account.

I read that as at least one of the players got the idea that she didn't want to be having sex.  To me, that means she said, "No."  Perhaps not the word no or stop or whatever, but it sounds like it was pretty clear she meant No.

steelymax

September 29th, 2010 at 2:46 PM ^

that means she said, "No."  Perhaps not the word no or stop or whatever, but it sounds like it was pretty clear she meant No.

One-hundred percent agreed.

However, the same source says she was subsequently "coaxed" into continuing, which means she subsequently said, "Yes." Perhaps not the word yes or continue or whatever, but it sounds like it was pretty clear she meant Yes.

I only know as much about the situation as you do. Simply pointing out that it's all hearsay for now and everyone's jumping to conclusions.

Cheri

September 29th, 2010 at 2:54 PM ^

IANAL, but I believe that if someone says no and then later is "coaxed" into saying yes, that it still means no. 

The player told detectives he was concerned “over the girl’s reaction to the circumstances,” noting she was “timid” and “not aggressive.” The player then admitted to detectives that he understood how the woman believed she was not welcome to leave the room, in part because she kept referencing that the two were “bigger” than her.

Did she mean no but was too afraid and just gave up?  That's still rape in my book.  If one is too afraid to fight, it still doesn't mean one agrees with what is happening.  Maybe she thought being raped was better than having her face beaten in and then raped?  You weren't there.  You can't judge.  I wasn't there, and I can't judge, but she was there and came forward to the police with her account, and the player who came forward with his account was there, and those both sound like she said no.