RR v BH Recruiting Comparison
This is in no way meant to be a "Bash RR" or "try to love RR" thread, so look elsewhere for that. This is just meant to compare two very different approaches to recruiting. Something interesting jumps out at me about RR's recruiting v BH's recruiting.
Given that the 2011 class was kind of a weird Frankenstein compilation between RR and BH, I'm not looking at that one. However, 2010 was all Rodriguez, and 2012 is all Hoke. The class of 2010 had 27 players, of whom 15 were under 200 lbs. The class of 2012 is 17 currently (counting Jeremy Clark as the last commit), of whom two are under 200 lbs, and both are CBs, who are typically the smallest players on the field.
I'm not trying to make the point that the RR recruiting was objectively bad, because a lot of those smaller players carried high grades and it was a well regarded recruiting class, as is our 2012 class so far. I bring this up because it would seem like a pretty objective way to look at the different philosophy that the two coaches bring to the game.
Sure seems to back up the general idea that RR wants speed and agility at all cost, whereas BH wants to play a physical game and see who wins the strength contest. We won't know for a while whose approach is best suited to the Big Ten, but we should certainly get an answer that we can take to the bank, once all is said and done . . .
again, not trolling
here's another post so you can neg me twice, though
cuz fuck yeah we've had a fuckton of RB production the last couple years, amirite?
you're developmentally disabled if you don't understand why we have been trying desperately to find a running back
Negbanged alot, but I'll see if I can try to walk through this with you, even though you said somwhere below that you're currently drunk. My question was plain: why so many backs? But it also implied the question: why so many average backs? Why was picking 9 and hoping 3 work out a recruiting strategy? Why did we take 9 average running backs instead of a feature back? Maybe even a feature back who went to high school in Michigan? Why couldn't RR stop our best in-state talent from going to Alabama like Ingram or the kids who went off to USC or losing out of state kids like Dee Hart? It felt like he moved in from the Big East and kept recruiting like he was still in the Big East. If it weren't for Pahokee Florida it feels like our roster would have quite a few more walk ons in it. Was RR a bad recruiter and just couldn't keep up with the big programs?
the last half of your "paragraph" there makes it clear that you are clueless with some sort of weird "rr-could do no right" bias to boot
you acting as though you are patronizing me with this idiocy is pretty ironic to me even in my extremely inebriated state
but you need to check your facts my good man...
while he turned out to be great (that line sure helped as well) ... ingram was not the best player in the state coming out of the class of 2008 ... he was a four star to rivals (6th in state) but he was only a three to scout (56th rb in nation) (http://www.rolltide.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/ingram_mark00.html) .... now he did turn out well, but to say he was the best at the time is just flat wrong (also this was in the transition between carr and richrod so i cant see how you could blame richrod anyway)
also we still had a shot with hart if richrod stayed and we lost frost (5 star lb) because we fired him
(this should not be seen as a statement, positive or negative, at ricrod, just a response to the mis-information above)
Are your friends.
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<br>Was everyone posting in this thread drunk last night?
I didn't say he was the most highly rated prospect, but of all the prospects he was the best it turns out. I didn't say that in 2007-08 he was the most highly sought after. The fact that he wasn't a five star but one of the top instate kids at a position that RR was determined to build in a half assed manner makes it even more strange that he'd get pulled all the way to Tusccaloosa instead of staying at home. Saban went to a good deal of trouble to steal him so he was pretty damn good, he was a superstar freshman starter, but I did not say he was the most highly touted or obvious #1 back at the time.
Your whole line of thinking is not only stupid but ridiculous. You are basically asking why RichRod, here for 3 years, didn't land a 5 star RB and only landed a bunch of 4 and 3 star RBs. This means jack shit. Look at the actual RBs he landed and tell me you think, at the time, they weren't good enough for Michigan. For my money, I want a couple more Kevin Grady's because he was a 5 star and that is all that matters. 4 stars are not good. Only 5 stars.
I am in no way defending RR, but in fairness Dee Hart switched schools after RR was fired. Claiming he wanted to play in a spread offense. He chose Alabama however since his his bestfriend was a commited there. I believe BH will still be able to pick up a feature back. We may not get one this class unless Brionte Dunn decomits, but I have faith it will be a top priority next year
Dee Hart decommitted before Rich was fired.
Recruiting isn't that easy. If RR could have just pulled an elite guy then he wouldn't have recruited so many RBs. The offense was stunted because everytime a hole opened for our RBs they really couldn't do anything with it. Despite the numbers we lack proven talent at the spot. As such, RR relied on Denard to run more.
Also, RR recruiting suffered because there were constant wonder if he was going to be fired and he had a 3-9 season. Top recruits generally like to play for winning teams. Also, RR was recruiting system players, not necessarily guys who Rivals thinks are 5 stars. Recruiting could never gain full momentum because no one knew what the future was going to be at Michigan, and other coaches always pointed out that uncertainty.
Ingram was in the 2008 class which RR jumped into around the new year. Can't exactly fault him for not locking up a kid in 2ish months.
RR didn't lose Dee Hart - Brandon did.
He recruited more running backs because he needed more running backs. You're treating this the wrong way. The reason the QB rushed so much is because none of our running backs outside of Minor were able to really do what Rich Rod wanted them to do. In turn, the defenses stopped keying on the RB as much. Think about what the Michigan offense would have been like with Noel Devine paired with Denard Robinson. That's what he was going after.
In the end, he never got a back that stayed healthy enough to be a difference maker. But was he wrong to keep recruiting RBs? Absolutely not. Can you name an absolute lock to start the season at RB?
i probably should have typed all of this rather than, "because we needed a RB did you not watch our offense the last two years, ldo, dumbass"
Plus simple disagreement with (self aggrandizing) well thought out and researched points is now also trolling. So really, what we did was about eqivalant, only you wasted 10 less minutes of your life.
in summation:
run in spread offenses. They also have RBs. No spread qb runs just because the coaches can't find a good running back. Maybe Drob ran more than he normally would've but RR didn't wait to find out how his current backs or qb's would be, he picked up 4 in his first class before he ever coached a practice for Michigan. He also didn't get any great RB's to surround the qb with. He needed a few more backs for his system like he needed a few more receivers but he didn't need 9 backs. If he recruited 1 or 2 great backs he wouldn't have needed to go after so many of them. Why didn't he pull in a top RB? and why did he take 4 in the first year? If none of the backs he went out and got were absolute locks to start then why didn't he get better backs? Again I repeat my original question: Why get 4 average RBs and hope 1 or 2 work out? What kind of philosophy is that? If you pull in 9 average backs in 3 years one of them is bound to be a sleeper is a terrible way to recruit so why did he do it?
So, your argument was that Rich Rod thought: "Well, I don't need 1 elite 5* guy, I'll try to get 4 3* guys and win because it's total star count that matters!"
I agree, spread QBs run in spread offenses. They are complemented by spread RBs. Part of why Vince Young was so effective at Texas was that for 10 games a year, they could pound Cedric Benson and defenses exploded because they keyed in on one or the other. Watch the Texas vs. Michigan Rose Bowl for an example of this. The Michigan defense chose to focus on Benson and shut him down, only to find Vince Young and his laser eyes killing us.
We had terrible running back depth when Rich Rod came in. Name guys that contributed other than Minor (JR), Brown (JR), and Grady (JR) from that roster he inherited. Then he brought in Shaw (4*), TRob (4* now a WR), Mike Cox (3/4* Carr Recruit), and Sam McGuffie (4*). Not exactly a 3* mafia there. The next year (2009) he struck out on some highly rated guys like David Oku and landed 3 3*s. The year after that he took only 2, Austin White (4* washout) and Stephen Hopkins (3* Beef Machine). Last year he probably would have landed 5* Dee Hart if he wasn't in limbo. I'm not sure if Justice Hayes (4*) should count for him or not, the details on that period are pretty hazy to me now.
So of his 3 years of recruiting, he got 9ish running backs. 1 transferred, 1 washed out, and 1 was moved to WR. That leaves us with 6. Of the remaining 6, 2 have started, 1 was a freshman, and Mike Cox is the next coming of Chris Perry, but fast. Teric Jones is the new James Rogers, and Fitz has been hurt for 75% of his career, but is Mike Hart only ultra fast.
The point is, recruiting is partially a crap shoot. I don't think Rich Rod was trying to recruit a 3* mafia, but if you strike out on 5* guys then you need to take 2-4 less highly rated players and hope that 1 pans out. It would be swell if you could just get 1 5* back ever year and call it good, but even that might not work out. Just look at how USC's RB situation deterioated after Reggie Bush left, even with 4 5* backs on their team.
Equals "terrible depth". The idea is with those guys with 2 years left, you need to bring in someone to replace them. Or at least do better than oft-injured Minor. And McGuffie was a Carr recruit, who we were all worried about getting to recommit to the new regime, for all that was worth.
I know you mean well, but this post is just going to be useless. I don't think we'll ever completely know how RR's recruiting would have played out because he basically had 2 years of his recruits to work with, and the same will be true of Hoke for a year or two as he brings in his guys.
This class is looking really nice. RR's first class looked really nice on paper as well. There is no need to get into an apples vs. oranges debate here except to say that hopefully Hoke can win more games on the field and that, in turn, translates into better recruits.
Half a thread to find a perfect response. Congrats bronxblue.
OTOH if anyone wants to get a statistical/numerical comparison in February or after three years it might be very interesting.
It was an observation. He wasn't trying to explain thermal dynamics or anything.
I agree with all of your secong paragraph but the comparisons will keep coming. They will, unless, Brian bans all RR posts forever or something!
1) Brady Hoke is going after more big time talents (guys in the top 10 at their positions)
2) Brady Hoke is recruiting locally and spreading throughout the country. He is basically recruiting in a centralized region (Michigan and Ohio) and spreading out.
How was this downvoted? Both of your points are true. Hoke is going after the best at every position. I don't recall RR doing this for every position. He might have done this more with offense but not defensively for sure. Hoke is recruiting Michigan and Ohio the hardest because most of the high school players from the midwest fit our new offensive scheme better than the spread. Not RR bashing just the truth.
No. Both of his points are not true.
not trolling
both of his points are simply not true
Care to explain?
I am going to assume he is eluding to the point that Hoke is somehow offereing really good talent and RichRod only offered shit.
3. The press loves Brady Hoke far more than they loved Rich Rod. Complete 180
4. Brady Hoke has comparable stability. People don't think he'll be fired in the next 1-2 years, so it's easier to convince kids to come. We lost Kris Frost, Dee Hart, and probably others because of the coaching change situaion.
5. Rich Rod did in fact go after top 10 guys. It was probably harder to draw them in as this year so many of them are concentrated in the MI/OH local area. He did get Devin Gardner and Will Campbell. He also stole Roy Roundtree and found quite a few guys locally that will be decent starters in their 2nd and 3rd years. He probably would have, as mentioned, gotten Dee Hart and Kris Frost. Brady Hoke has the luxury of pretty much only recruiting MI/OH this year, only needing to go elsewhere for the defensive backfield.
6. Related to that, OSU is imploding. If OSU were still a midwestern recruiting juggernaut, we probably don't land Strobel. Kalis and Dunn don't decommit and consider Michigan. Dodson probably doesn't go to Wisconsin, and Pittman doesn't go to MSU. Then throw in a much tougher battle for the rest of the DE/LB class we have going.
In the end, Hoke is a great recruiter, but to ignore the boatloads of positive press and sheer luck that he's had would be seeing the situations with blinders on.
That's a good point. Sheer mass is definitely the best criterion by which to evaluate football players. We should just field a team of sumo wrestlers.
Miss you Big Guy...
What happened to that guy? Seems like he and Profitgoblue and a few others disappeared after the cc.
Getting guys out of MGoPrison?
Might read this and speak for himself. I believe he lived in/around Pittsburgh, but got a job in Michigan, and was setting that up/getting ready for a move/moving (and by now settling in I would think), so he was naturally really busy. I hope he finds time to make it back. Though I don't know that either of us could handle all night open threads anymore. But bowl game open threads won't be the same if he's not back by then.
He's up north trying to get K.I. Sawyer recomissioned so he can fly B-52s like his father.
I haven't the read and I don't plan to. I just stopped by after reading the title of this thread to say, "What's the fucking point?"
Now I see why so many of you people have trouble with that Ohio Proficiency Exam.
I don't know. I was born and raised in Michigan. I have yet to meet anyone more intelligent in Columbus, though, so probably not.
Throw in "OP" after "haven't read the" and maybe my post makes more sense. That's probably wrong too, though. I'm pretty drunk.
This was certainly not your point, or your question, BUT: HAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
ahahhhahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhHHHAHAHAHAHAAAHHHAHHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
Dude. Not even in the same universe. That simple.
Seems like the first class for each would be better, if for no other reason than the ramifications of '08 season weren't yet coming into force.
Totally random - haven't even looked at 2009. Maybe it would be more useful, but I don't think that RR wasn't getting the type of player that he wanted in 2010. I think he just prefers that smaller player, presumably for the sake of speed. But I just put in 2010 for the heck of it.
an interesting topic but probably unable to really ever know. In the 2008 class RR mainly had to do nothing more than secure the existing commits that Carr had locked up. In 09, in spite a dreadful year on the field the world saw a world of possibilities and there was a surge of commits that got that class to be a top ten class. After that all of the troubles started like NCAA investigations and being utterly abysmal on the field again. By 2010 the talks of RR being fired had already spread through the nation, and it was hard to get anyone to look past the fact that the guy on the phone may not be the guy they see on the field.
Hoke has undoubtedly had some extreme success on the recruiting trail thus far (12 kids for the 2011 class and 16 from this class) (not to mention 2 already for 2013) That's 30 kids in roughly 6 months. The guy can obviously connect with kids and parents alike. Obviously each coach is going to have their own philosophy, but I would say if Hoke has 3 really bad years then we could compare the two. Now with that being said in 3 years if Hoke has had a repeat of RR success or lack there of, I will be the guy you find hanging by my throat with my feet swinging. WIth all that I am and all that I have I hope that we are talking about how great it is to be on top of the B1G where we belong instead of how RR struggled to get kids to commit to an uncertain future.
I think you compare Michigan coach vs. Michigan coach, not Michigan coach during three bad years. Do you think the bar is now set lower after the last 3 years? I don't.
"an interesting topic"
no