Wojo says Michigan basketball system too finesse-oriented
And describes the state of the program in other less than glowing ways...
http://www.detnews.com/article/20100308/OPINION03/3080359/Spartans-rise…
I think this about sums it up:
"The Wolverines don't have nearly the same number of legitimate Big Ten players, so if Beilein is considered a good teaching coach, he's gonna have to teach a lot better, or recruit a lot better."
Can't really argue with that.
And depending how the 2010 class closes out, he has definitively shown he can recruit pretty well.
> Evan "Metrics" Smotrycz (4-star on all services. Top 100 - Rivals (#65), ESPN (#80), and Scout (#54)
> Tim Hardaway Jr - ESPN Top 100, #92
If we can manage to get TZ, next year we will be a totally different team.
Don't forget Brundidge in the 2011 class. He is another top 100 guy and he was one MSU wanted and was going to offer, but he committed to UM before they got a chance to do it.
not with Defense and rebounding that wins championships. Football team take note.
but our defensive system forces a ton of turnovers.
Both the football and basketball teams have system problems: there are not enough good players in the system. That is the problem.
Beilein's system seemed to work in the Big East. Is that a finesse conference?
I think everyone agrees that THIS TEAM stinks. THE PLAYERS were physically overmatched by MSU which is what MSU specializes in. When they win that's often how it goes down. So yes, Beilein needs to recruit and teach better than he has this season. The fact that team and players are not good enough does not necessarily mean the system is wrong.
"Beilein's system seemed to work in the Big East. Is that a finesse conference?"
Define 'work' - Look at where Beilein's teams finished in the big east from year to year. And to answer your question, yes, the Big East is a finesses conference (at least relative to the b10)
I would argue that if he can't recruit or teach the right players to make the system successful in this conference, then the system is wrong.
Work: defined as taking a non-traditional power (in fact, a general bottom dweller) in the best-or-2nd-best basketball conference in the country to the middle of that conference consistently and to the Elite 8.
Please expand on your "League X is more 'finesse' than League Y" argument though - its very objectivity is starting to make me reevaluate things.
So you are clearly implying that the big east is not a finesse league? Any objectivity backing that up?
Personally, yeah, I disagree based on watching a ton of basketball in both conferences. The biggest difference is that Big 10 officials let them play a little more, though it's inconsistent (as seen Sunday). Mostly, they work much harder in the Big Ten to make sure the home team always wins.
But no: I'm "clearly implying" it's an idiotic argument that two reasonable people can easily disagree about, and that it has absolutely no value in evaluating Michigan, Beilein, conference play, or anything else.
can't disagree with that.
I'm just frustrated... we all are. I think we're on the right track with Beilein, some disagree. I tend to defer to past success and his reputation in his profession as an exceptional coach, others look at this season and go WTF. I get that, though I'd argue intelligent people aren't calling for his head a year removed from the second round (not accusing you of that).
I just think people want to stick "finesse," "system coach," "white boy coach" into the argument for whatever reason, which people have done repeatedly in the last 2 months here (again, not you). That kind of stuff doesn't get us anywhere, and I don't think it's fair or remotely accurate.
I mean, I like the guy, and I think hes a good coach. He didn't do a very good job this year though. First and foremost at getting players he needs, and 2nd at using the players he has successfully. I think people can be critical and discontent without calling for his head. Thats essentially where I stand.
In 5 seasons in the Big East, Beilein did well enough to make it to the Elite 8 and Sweet Sixteen and then get the Michigan job.
Please let me know if you describe that as unsuccessful.
I would argue that this team was killed by horrible shooting long before issues of physicality or finesse came into play.
he had two nice runs in the ncaa tourney (the only 2x he made the ncaa tourney at WVU:). However, his record in Big East Conference play wasn't anything great:
5-11 T for 6th in the West
7-9 T-8th
8-8 T-7th
11-5 3rd
9-7 T-7th
He should have made the tourney three times. They went 22-9 in 2007, with a win over a top 10 UCLA team. They got snubbed and took out their frustrations on the NIT field, winning that tourney. So after two rebuilding seasons, he made the tourney (or should have) each of the last three years, and laid the foundation for Huggins to continue succeeding.
And while you scoff at those Big East records, what I see there is steady progress for four seasons, followed by a dip in year 5 (which was supposed to be a massive rebuilding project - they were picked 15th in a 16-team league).
It's hard to be "tough" when you're starting a 6'7 center. That's not style, it's personnel. Acting like they're all finesse is not the viewpoint of someone who knows anything about basketball.
And it's not recruiting either - losing Cronin and Morgan sparked a ton of this. Beilein's style is definitely TOs instead of rebounds, but he doesn't want to play midgets who can't bang with MSU's monsters - he's forced to.
Acting like they're all finesse is not the viewpoint of someone who knows anything about basketball.Well, the last time I checked, Wojo didn't look like he had spent too much time on the hardwood. Michigan clearly had to rely too much on the outside game, but not by design. Ben Cronin going out with the hip injury put a big kink in Belein's strategy this season. Have JB recruit some quality size and see if his team is still "all finesse".
Gee, I wonder if he'd have written a column praising Belein--would you have made that same comment?
It's CRAZY how when guys criticize Michigan--they're idiots who have never played the game.
I don't recall seeing anyone ask if Angelique Chengelis had played football when she was the Queen of the Big House (before she had a slightly dissenting opinion on something a week or so ago).
fun of Tom Izzo for making up words like "rewardingest" but I find the depression Michigan football and bball have set upon me essentially takes all the joy out of it. (that, and the fact that guy's a really frickin' good coach). Sigh.
Not to take anything away from Izzo, because I think he is a solid coach, but I wonder how his legacy would look if Michigan hadn't left the state wide-open for him to recruit within for the past decade?
Admittedly, we did it to ourselves, but I would still hesitate putting him in the same category as a Coach K or Roy Williams....
I believe what coach Izzo meant was "most best rewardingest".
I double checked with Freep and they concurred.
Freep is printing an apology for taking Izzo out of context on this. No retraction however on their U of M Football expose - for fear of getting themselves on double secret probation.
I'm not going to judge Beilein until he has more than 2 post players.
I wonder when that will be?
it's not he can control who he has on the team.
shooting team and you go cold then the critics say "you are too small and soft and need an inside presence."
If you are a inside team and then you get lit up by 3's then you are to big and slow.
Kind of a mailed in article IMO.
I'm sick of drive through reporting. Firstly, the fact is that Beilein doesn't stress offense over defense. He stresses not turning the ball over which maximizes efficiency and should make it easier on the defense. Beilein hasn't really had a team full of quick athletic players.....ever. He might not be the best at recruiting, but he doesn't have a dirty recruiting track record (cough....Calipari....cough) and he usually maximizes the talent he does have.
With that said, the team underachieved. I don't think the team was awful based on last year. The schedule was exponentially tougher and you also had players who were money shooting the ball last year have their numbers drop off significantly (almost the whole team, actually). Douglass and Lucas-Perry were forced to handle the ball at point a lot year, and coming from someone who played both guard spots in high school, playing the one guard affects your approach and your shooting percentage if you are a slow white guy who doesn't have wizard like ball handling skills.
It's a lot harder to dribble up the court against pressure than it is to just run to your position. It wears you out quicker and that's my best guess at why the shooting percentages dropped for the players who had to share that responsibility. On top of that we gave a lot of winnable games away. Hopefully we get some point guards recruited or certain players just get better at the position.
Totally agree.
Beilein is huge on D - he just stresses causing TOs more than getting rebounds. That isn't "finesse." This works when we don't turn it over, as you said. Then you watch Manny being insanely careless with the ball ALL THE TIME, and the rest of the guys not named Morris being largely unable to control the ball, and you want to kill yourself.
The defense has not really been the problem most of the time this year. UM shot 35% and had 19 turnovers yesterday. That has very little to do with toughness vs. finesse.
and very happy if TZ comes to Michigan. It will be a recruiting upset of huge dimensions if Beilein can convince him to come here.
That's just like, his opinion, man.
to share different opinions (some negative) and discuss in a constructive manner.
Thanks, man.
I woke up here in mid-2007 and I haven't really figured it out since. I found some bologna and a few slices of Kraft singles in the back of the fridge and Brian seemed alright minus the heavy shedding so I decided to stay. My mom once told me all you need is four walls, adobe slats and a smile to get by in life and I, for one, agree. Thanks again for clearing that all up for me though.
Sincerely,
Holyfuckinggodyouhavegottobefuckingkiddingme
If trey does choose U-M i will be shocked, i think that game yesterday had to hurt our chances considering he went to visit at MSU and witnessed that in person
They love to praise the Spartans. It's us against the world.
For the record, I think msu's toughness is more izzo teaching his goons how to shove and push in such a way that the referees won't call fouls. I can't respect that. Beilein is a better coach. He teaches basketball not thuggery
I am as big a Beilein homer as anyone. While I wish it were true, there is no way he's a better coach than Tom Izzo in any meaningful sense.
I think if we can ban "finesse" as useless in making meaningful points about basketball, I'm cool with getting rid of "thuggery" while we're at it.
Izzo coaches thuggery? Really? Just because our program consistently fails to physically match up with Michigan State doesn't mean they're "thugs." They're just aggravatingly dominant, which as Michigan fans, is something we haven't seen from our program for at LEAST a decade and a half.
Izzo is one of the best coaches in D-1. He runs a clean program. He promotes his program well and is willing to be pretty much anywhere there's a camera to show him in the crowd (which is more than can be said of Michigan Basketball). He's annoyingly successful. Let's give credit where credit is due, because Izzo truly is one of the few legendary head coaches out there that is actually worth admiring. It just sucks for us that he's at Michigan State.
He promotes his program well and is willing to be pretty much anywhere there's a camera to show him in the crowd (which is more than can be said of Michigan Basketball).
This was true of us under Amaker, but Beilein has pulled out all the stops to sell the program. You cannot fault him in this area.
As far as "coaching thuggery" goes, I agree that that's going too far, but Izzo's teams definitely seem to get away with a lot of borderline fouls (especially over-the-back fouls) on account of their rep as a "physical" team.
"This was true of us under Amaker, but Beilein has pulled out all the stops to sell the program. You cannot fault him in this area."
Well, that's true to a certain degree. But every time there's a major sporting event in Michigan, invariably the camera turns to Tom Izzo chatting up someone in the stands eating some popcorn, and it inevitably turns into a discussion of his dominant college basketball program. That's what I'm talking about. He's scary visible, and he's a household name. Beilein, while definitely upping the marketing and media exposure, isn't even on the same radar screen, especially with seasons like this.
Izzo has become the face of college basketball in the State of Michigan, whether we like it or not, and he cemented that at our expense in the wake of Ed Martin. Amaker did absolutely nothing to counter it, and now we're screwed.
Izzo is the perfect coach for the style of basketball I'd love to see us play- tough yet talented, rebounding and defense first. It's just his whiny personality that drives me crazy. You run one of the top programs that gets fawned over...don't act like everyone is out to slight you.
Wheras Beilein is the perfect Michigan-teacher do things the right way personality (at least till he came out with how he doesn't get that the Big Ten is physical, after year 3), but his 3 point heaving, we don't care about rebounds only steals, 3 point shooting tall guys is not my philosophy on how to succeed at basketball at all.
It's just so frustrating to have Izzo up the road in so many ways...
We just need to recruit better in the future and get athletic and tough players. That will make this team get better. As of right now we play 2 against 5 most games.
a perimeter team.
That's our system: Outside jumpers, 3s, steals.
We only lost by 1 point to MSU in January.
Did they get that much more scary and burly in two months?
Did Barwis sneak up to Lansing in the off-season?
No - we threw up bricks and generally did not show up.
Toughness has nothing to do with it.
The offense is too finesse-oriented. That's how Kevin Pittsnogle was able to star in it.
I'll always give Wojo a free pass, though, because he is a professional smartass and doesn't really ever act like he has a personal stake in any team he covers. When Wojo writes about your team, you usually expect a zinger or two. That's just the way it goes.
Belien has recruited 3 big guys and none of them have played yet. Smotrycz will make 4 and Horford possibly 5. At the very least Belien will have options next year.
We are losing Sims and Gibson but they rarely played together anyway. I think Novak's days of getting 30 minutes at the 4 are over, which will be good for him and the team.
Next years starting lineup could very well be
Darius 6'4"
Manny 6'5"
Novak 6'5"
Smotrycz 6'9"
Mclimans 6'10"
This lineup will give us an entirely different look and increase the team's ability to run Belien's system competently. If Mclimans, Smotrycz and Morgan are capable of quality minutes next year, we will finally have an opportunity to see what Belien's system will look like in AA.
Good luck to Big Ben Cronin, sorry I never had a chance to see the kid perform in good health.
Ernie Harwell couldn't play a lick of baseball .