Tressel's Suspension: What angle is OSU trying to play?
I feel like this aspect of the whole debacle deserves its own topic.
For the life of me, I can't comprehend how they came to the decision for the 2 game, $250,000 punishment.
Is it pure arrogance? They think they are bullet-proof and the NCAA wouldn't dare investigate further? That either they refuse to acknowledge how serious the offenses are or feel that the media and authorities won't realize it themselves? This seems impossible.
Plain stupidity? Maybe they aren't the savviest group on the planet, but it would seem you couldn't get to the positions of university president, AD or head coach by being a stupid individual. They can't possibly be dumb enough to believe the punishment will suffice can they?
Or do they feel that if they start with a low punishment, perhaps the NCAA will only add on an incremental amount of punishment (i.e. adding an extra year of probation to Michigan). So rather than suspend Tressel for 6 games, take away 5 scholarships and ban themselves from a year of postseason play and then have the NCAA add on 2 more games, 5 more scholarships and a year or two more, perhaps the NCAA's punishment just consists of 5-6 game suspension, 5 scholarships and a year ban.
I'd love to have some psychic abilities right now to get inside their heads.
Well the NCAA could also take this self-imposed punishment as an insult if OSU honestly believes that is all the NCAA would punish them with. And come down ever harder than they would have before.
I'm hoping for my theory.
i live down here. Trust me....they are completely delusional and believe that whatever BS they spew the NCAA and everyone else will buy.
i find it hard to believe that OSU administration is as dumb as some of their fans...
they didnt all go to OSU or marry their sisters, so its hard to believe that they all could all truly believe in Saint tressel. OTOH we have gee's comments.
March 10th, 2011 at 10:11 PM ^
belive it, unfortunately they are all as dumb as a bucket of nails. actually, if i were a bucket of nails i would take that statement offensivly. There is no difference between the intellegence of the HC, AD, or fans. Everything is about osu, it's what they live and breathe. JT could commit murder live during a game, be caught on tape and he would not get into any trouble. It's rediculous what they do.
March 10th, 2011 at 10:15 PM ^
I "belive" it is "rediculous". I hope you don't take this comment too "offensivly".
March 10th, 2011 at 11:20 PM ^
C'MON!
I live down here as well and I find that there are two distinct groups;
Group A - Believes that TSIO is the greatest thing on the planet, that they would never do anything wrong, and that Jim Tressel is the second coming of Christ. They, are largely under the impression, perhaps because the email asked for confidentiality, that Tressel either did nothing wrong, or that he committed minor violations. As a result their opinions of TSIO's self imposed sanctions range from them being enough that the NCAA will consider the matter closed, to extremely harsh (which I can't fathom)
Group B - Understands that these violations are serious, and is very concerned about what may happen to TSIO. Interstingly enough those in this group with whom I've spoken agree that these self-imposed sanctions are pathetic. One of my TSIO friends told me he's "really scared that the NCAA will come down harder because the university either doesn't seem to realize or doesn't care that these are serious violations".
I must say I prefer to talk to those in Group B, unlike their fellow TSIO fans I can carry on a conversation with them without it inevitably ending with personal insults and the words "Fuck You!"
March 10th, 2011 at 11:22 PM ^
I'm in Group B, but I don't think the NCAA is going to come down much harder than the proposed sanctions. For one thing, OSU did self-report this issue when the university discovered it. They brought in the NCAA to investigate, and it sounds like the investigation was almost complete before someone leaked ot Yahoo!. The school did exactly what it was supposed to do, and i think/hope the NCAA will take that into account when reviewing the case.
OSU's compliance guy, Doug Archie, is pretty well respected by the NCAA and other schools. That's because he's very good at his job, and used to be an NCAA compliance enforcement person. I think he's got a good sense of what would and would not provoke the NCAA, and I don't think he'd suggest a penalty that might provoke the NCAA to really bring down the hammer. They also brought in fairly well respected outside counsel to review and give an objective opinion on appropriate sanctions, and they apparently thought the proposed penalties would be reasonable. Moreover, I think it's important to note that it's not just a two game suspension. There is a fairly significant fine, and Tressel having to attend a compliance seminar (which I imagine to be like a 12 hour CLE from hell).
March 10th, 2011 at 11:29 PM ^
Are you joking? You think that a seminar, a two scrimmage suspension and a 1/14th salary fine is sufficient punishment for knowingly lying to the NCAA multiple times with the end result of a Big Ten championship won with ineligible players?
Lay off the scarlet Kool-Aid.
March 10th, 2011 at 11:37 PM ^
may be a significant fine for us, but he makes 8 times that every year.
Also regardless of whether OSU knew about this particular violation or whether yahoo discovered it Tressel still passed up four chances to come clean, and even signed a document stating he had no knowledge of any violations in september. That's worth more than a two game suspension and a 250K fine
March 10th, 2011 at 11:41 PM ^
Tressel makes somewhere between $3.5-4 million a year.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/sports/ncaafootball/10tressel.html
March 10th, 2011 at 11:48 PM ^
so that puts it at around 14/15 times his fine
March 11th, 2011 at 10:19 AM ^
Even so, it's a significant chunk of change, especially since he's still going to be paying taxes on it.
March 11th, 2011 at 10:43 AM ^
I posted this in another thread, but if you assume 3.5 a year, and you also assume he makes half his money for being a gameday coach, and a 14 game schedule, he comes out earning half his salary during those two games for doing nothing.
In other words, he comes out ahead financially for being suspended.
March 10th, 2011 at 11:56 PM ^
Even if the program is held fairly blameless as you're suggesting, the coach--who failed to act upon information that his players violated NCAA rules, and then lied about it to the NCAA--cannot make any such defense. Even if you try to only punish the coach, it still has to be more severe than two games and a fine that is small relative to his salary. I don't really see how he could be allowed to keep his job, to be honest. Just focusing on the fact that he lied to the NCAA, that ought to be an offense that earns immediate termination, and I'm not sure that's the lighter of the two offenses.
And while coming forward when you discover something substantially mitigates the school's culpability with a player's offense, I don't think that will work well with a coach. Since the coach represents the entire football program in a more complete way than any player, I think the football program itself will be hit with penalties, even though the most severe ones should be applied first and foremost to the coach. At the very least, how could they not vacate the wins from last year when the head coach knowingly played ineligible players?
March 11th, 2011 at 10:39 AM ^
Definitely agree with this. I don't see how they don't come down with a show-cause penalty for this. When you look at the history of coaches who cheated and then lied about it, this isn't an unusual penalty.
By all rights, Tressel should be an assistant in the NFL for the next few years.
March 11th, 2011 at 11:29 AM ^
I'm not sure about vacating last season. Aside from that issue, I think the NCAA does have to at least consider that there were unusual mitigating circumstances in this case. According to Dennis Johnson of the Kentucky Post, Tressel was asked by federal authorities to keep quiet to avoid tipping people off about the investigation. Even if those reports are false, I think Tressel would have a good argument that he was concerned about interfering with an ongoing federal investigation if he were to suspend players and/or inform the NCAA of what he had learned. Let's be realistic; reporters would go apeshit trying to get the real story if Tressel suspended six players, including Boom, TP, and Posey for "violation of team rules" or whatever. If he informed the NCAA, he might as well just hold a press conference and hand out the emails.
Was Tressel wrong? Absolutely. He should have at least talked to Gene Smith or someone from the counsel's office about how to handle the situation. Does that warrant termination? I don't know. On the one hand, the fact that he didn't come forward in December hurts him, but I'm unclear whether the December raid was part of a different investigation - the December raid was reportedly IRS, not FBI or DEA - so Tressel may not have felt like he could talk yet. On the other hand, Tressel does not have a history of major violations, and he's always responded properly with regards to player misconduct in the past. Tressel suspended Bellisari for the 2001 Michigan game and part of the Outback Bowl for getting a DUI. Tressel also suspended Clarett for the entire 2003 season after Clarett filed the false police report, even though he was the entire offense. When Troy Smith took $500 from a booster, Tressel suspended Smith for the 2005 Fiesta Bowl, the first game of the 2005 season, and part of the 2005 Texas game, even though that meant Justin Zwick would play and probably cost us a chance at a national title.
I'm hoping that the NCAA only adds on a game or two and another fine. I don't know if they will, but I'd be surprised if OSU's self-imposed sanctions were off by more than that. As I've said elsewhere, OSU's compliance office has a pretty good record with these sorts of things, and they also had some well-regarded outside counsel assisting them in determining sanctions.
With regards to school penalties, I think this is where OSU's history of self-reporting everything will help them, and Tressel, with avoiding the harsher sanctions that, say, an Alabama might face. OSU's spent the last decade building up credibility with the NCAA by reporting everything, no matter how trivial - the self-reports include violations like "Coach A saw Player B walking to class in the rain and violated NCAA rules by giving Player B a ride" - just in case something like this ever happened.
March 11th, 2011 at 11:44 AM ^
Do you think the SEC helped Pearl's case to keep his job when Slive handed down a suspension? I think that even though Pearl's actions were worse, that's definitely the case to watch if you're Tressel.
I'm also of the opinion that 2010 is going to be a vacated season for OSU; I just don't see how they can keep those wins when a coach played athletes with very serious questions attached.
March 11th, 2011 at 12:08 AM ^
Let's say the university acted correctly, which can be argued up until it became time to issue a punishment, they did.
Jim Tressel clearly didn't.
So if you don't want to punish the university, isn't the logical step to fire Tressel? Or at least suspend him for the coming Big Ten season on top of a real fine, something in the half or 2/3 range of his salary?
If the NCAA has any balls, they will come down hard on OSU just for the arrogance displayed at the press conference alone.
March 11th, 2011 at 12:12 AM ^
I also suggest you consider changing your handle my friend.
Cheers!
March 11th, 2011 at 12:57 AM ^
Do you realize that you fired your basketball coach in 2004 for breaking the exact same clauses of his contract that Tressel broke? Then O'Brien appealed to the Ohio Supreme Court and his dismissal was upheld. O'Brien was also "Mr. Integrity." So why exactly is Tressel so different? Because he has won. That's the only difference.
If you think these are appropriate sanctions, you're fooling yourself. The first version of your own self-report disagreed and proposed Tressel be suspended for all of spring and summer practice. I really don't think the NCAA is going to just gloss over this, especially given that they had their arms twisted into allowing the suspended players play in the bowl game. They took so much grief over that in the media. I think they will be pretty harsh with their ruling.
Actually, the facts are the opposite... but it is an interesting point. OSU did fire O'Brien for something similar. However, the courts sided with O'Brien and awarded him a ton of money.
From wikipedia (so it must be true):
O'Brien claimed Ohio State improperly fired him and sued the university for $3.5 million in lost wages and benefits. O'Brien argued his loan did not violate NCAA bylaws because he knew Radojevic already had lost his amateur status by playing for money overseas. At trial, Geiger, NCAA lead investigator Steve Duffin both testified that O'Brien made the loan for humanitarian reasons, not as an inducement to get Radojevic to sign with Ohio State. NCAA infractions committee chairman David Swank testified that O'Brien's actions did not violate NCAA rules. A judge found Ohio State had breached the contract and awarded O'Brien $2.4 million. The award was upheld on appeal to the Ohio Court of Appeals and Ohio Supreme Court.[4]
Guess I did get the facts wrong. Must have misread my original source:
http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/osu-fired-mr-integrity-obrien-for-tressel-offense-29551
But nonetheless...they still took the action of firing him. So it stands to reason that Tressel should be given a punishment close to that given they cited the same violations of the contract, right? That's why I think Tressel's punishment is a joke.
That's why I thought it was interesting to bring up. They ended up being wrong in the case of Jim O'Brien. So I can understand OSU wanting to take it slower this time around.
March 11th, 2011 at 10:21 AM ^
O'Brien was more involved in the misconduct; he was actually giving players fairly significant amounts of cash and covering it up.
Or... they know their fans are delusional, blind followers of whatever they say, and so they are trying to shore up sympathy and make themselves out to be the victims in the eyes of their fanbase before the NCAA comes down hard on them. It is very hard to believe that with all the legal counsel they have that they have no clue about the prospect of the NCAA actually making the university itself pay penalties for what happened.
I think in their own little world they are not in the least bit concerned about the NCAA coming down harder on them. If they were, you would have to believe they would have been much more prepared for that press conference. The remarks and the overall presentation of that press conference wreaks of arrogance.
the poor
"I'm just hoping the coach won't dismiss me."
<br>
<br>There it is...
March 10th, 2011 at 10:39 PM ^
I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when Gee had Tressel over at his house to discuss the violation for three hours. I can just see it:
Gee: Come on in Jim. Would you like some coffee?
Tressel: Sure.
Gee: So Jim. What's the plan to get off lightly from NCAA violations.
Tressel: Well, they found out I was lying. But we had to have our players to win in 2010. Do you like my 9-1 record against Michigan?
Gee: Yep.
Tressel. Ok. Suspend me for the first two non-conference games and fine me $250,000.
Gee: No problem Jim. You got it.
March 10th, 2011 at 11:21 PM ^
Even from the king of sisters of the poor, that comment was shocking to me. Shocking and disturbing.
At this point I think that the last of your thoughts is the correct one. They brought in outside consultants, who I am guessing recommended the self-punishment. Considering how damning the evidence is, I wonder if they told OSU that the NCAA may level them, so they purposefully low-balled the punishment as the start of "negotiating" so to speak. I mean why would OSU impose stiff penalties if there is the chance that the NCAA my let them off light. And doesn't the NCAA have to be the one to vacate wins too?
March 11th, 2011 at 10:43 AM ^
A school can vacate wins at any time, that's what happened with the Ed Martin scandal.
In Pryor translation, what Gee said was this: Everybond Steals, Everybody Murders, Everybody Lies....
The propoganda machine is out at OSU... and no doubt Les Wexner is the one who told Gee to ratchet down the suspension from page one of the letter to what they actually wrote on page 4.....Probably got Jim D at the Big 10 office to ensure that it will not be bad...
OSU rewards it friends well....
I've mentioned this before, but people are assuming that the 2 years/250k came out of the blue.
This is not the case. The NCAA has been involved since February. The NCAA has already talked to Tressel and the OSU AD. Gene Smith is very well regarded within the NCAA and holds quite a bit of power within the organization. I know it makes a better story to assume the OSU AD is stupid and evil, but the punishment they came up with is based in reality, potentially with the tacit approval of the NCAA.
OSU has historically been realistic with their self imposed penalties. I suspect that is the case here.
What you say makes sense. But, it's not that 2 games and 250K came out of the blue. It's that it's so obviously light. 11 out 12 coaches who lied to the NCAA were fired. (I'm assuming that's true as I haven't verified it.) Heck, Dentine doesn't do that well.
26 of the 27 coaches that have violated bylaw 10.1 have been fired. The same bylaw that Tressel violated.
March 10th, 2011 at 10:44 PM ^
I'd like to use this statistic
March 10th, 2011 at 11:44 PM ^
It was part of a radio interview with Bruce Hooley (radio host and writer for Fox Sports Ohio) that was posted earlier by another MGoBlogger:
http://1620thezone.com/play_window.php?audioType=Episode&audioId=5204505
The whole interview is great, but the info that you are looking for is around the 7:30 mark.
March 11th, 2011 at 12:30 AM ^
much appreciated
Gone (from 97.1). No independent thought, please!
March 10th, 2011 at 11:22 PM ^
UM in Tex, that avatar is awesome. great shot. Nice comment too.
You are severely underestimating the power of the media.
Perception is everything.
maybe. But the NCAA hasn't seemed to care about that before. I'm also not sure we've heard the entire story yet. In general, I hope the NCAA doesn't make decisions on how much stink media outlets make. Unless you like a world where the Free Press gets to dole out punishment and ESPN forever protects the SEC.
You could not have described the world we live in any better. Seriously, read that again and laugh at the irony.
ha ha... touche