Should Harbaugh bring in Bills QB coach, Ken Dorsey?
If Harbaugh stays, the assistant pool will definitely need a shake up. The QB room has been an absolute failure.
I wonder if Ken Dorsey, the Bills QB coach would be a good replacement for McDaniels or whatever position that would need to be offered to lure him here. Look at what he's done with Josh Allen.
Josh Allen junior year in college:
56.3% Completion, 1812 yds, 6.7 per, 16 TDs, 6 INT
Josh Allen NFL year 1:
52.8% Completion, 2074 yds, 6.5 per, 10 TDs, 12 INT
(Dorsey hired) Year 2:
58.9% Completion, 3089 yds, 6.7 per, 20 TDs, 9 INT
Year 3:
68.6% Completion, 3641 yds, 7.7 per, 28 TDs, 9 INT
He took a woefully inaccurate, big armed QB and turned him from liability to pro bowler. Before this year, Josh Allen had never completed more than 60% of his passes. He's completing nearly 70% this year. We happen to have a inaccurate, big armed QB. Dorsey also coached Cam Newton and Derek Anderson (both of which had their best years under him) as the Panthers QB coach. Former Heisman finalist for Miami. Most recently an assistant athletic director for FIU.
For those that haven't given up on Joe Milton, this might be a good move to make.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:04 AM ^
are you wanting Dorsey to be the OC? Because he isn't coming to Michigan for a lateral move. It would have to be OC/QB coach.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:05 AM ^
Could be a QB coach/ Co-OC position. Similar to what OSU just offered to Kerry Combs.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:41 AM ^
Harbaugh is already essentially a co-OC and co-QB coach. It would be a clear demotion unless they offered him OC, which I’m not sure we want to go the route of “never called plays before” again.
December 14th, 2020 at 10:23 AM ^
Also might want to point out that Allen's dramatic improvement until Dorsey just might've caught the eye of a few teams in the NFL as well.
My guess is he's going to move to the Bills OC position when Daboll gets a HC job either next year or the year after. Which absolutely blows my mind when I think how god-awful he was here in Cleveland but hey, here's to personal growth and development.
Dorsey's not moving back to college.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:21 AM ^
Let’s back up a second here, the guy was the number 7 overall pick in the draft. He is doing great, but this was what was expected. Some of that improvement probably has a lot to do with playing in the pros vice WY and the team in Buffalo getting better.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:54 AM ^
Expected is not accurate. Hoped for based on coaching and talent. Actually, Allen’s biggest knocks were the same as Milton’s, and it was only partially due to talent at Wyoming. He lacked touch and mechanics. Dorsey, not surprisingly, did well in college because his strengths were...mechanics and touch, and decision making. Trubisky for the Bears was drafted 2, and his stats are much more erratic—because of coaching, for one. Trubisky has the arm talent, the mobility, but still has bouts with accuracy and poor decisions (turnovers) like Cutler Jr.
So, talent is one thing, but coaching is necessary in many cases. Plenty of guys have failed with as much talent as Allen.
December 14th, 2020 at 2:57 PM ^
Sure , coaching is some of it. Being on a talented team is a big part of it. Trubisky was considered a huge stretch at that pick and I don’t think anyone is surprised. QBs rise and fall in the NFL for many reasons, part of it is coaching. I am just saying let’s not treat Dorsey like he is some great QB whisperer based on this one QB, it could be he was just working with a great QB.
December 14th, 2020 at 3:48 PM ^
Charlie Weis says hello!
December 14th, 2020 at 10:10 AM ^
problem I see is we've already converted the personnel on the field for a spread system (small slot ninjas, etc...) Switching course back and forth from pro to spread or to some sort of pro-spread frankensystem would be a long term slow walked disaster.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:33 AM ^
It’s seems a coach that can develop quarterbacks might qualify for our head coaching position.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:04 AM ^
He also has ties to IMG, a big recruiting bed for us. He trained Cam Newton, Christian Ponder, Joe Webb, and Randall Cobb at IMG.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:07 AM ^
Joe Milton is already a Junior. That is three years of coaching and practice. At this point Milton is what he is. He isn’t going to improve significantly.
He seems like a great young man that I would love my daughter to bring home, but as a quarterback he just isn’t very good and is plagued by the same issues he had in HS.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:28 AM ^
I was really bummed Milton didn't work out at QB. But he's so big, so talented, and such a hard worker I wonder if they could make him a TE or something to get him on the field.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:40 AM ^
I would love to see him succeed on the field at another position, but he doesn’t seem to be that great of an athlete.
I know he claims to run a 4.6, but his game speed wasnt anywhere near that. I’ve never seen such an imposing physical specimen, that is supposed to be athletic, not be able to gain 1-3 yards in multiple situations.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:03 AM ^
Watching him shy away from contact against a much smaller DB when we needed the yard seemed telling to me.
December 14th, 2020 at 6:09 PM ^
I noticed the same thing, he should be initiating contact because he’s twice their size.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:20 AM ^
How do you know he's a hard worker? Cause he posts clips of himself throwing in the summer?
December 14th, 2020 at 12:25 PM ^
Just going on reports. I don't have direct knowledge. I believe it was mentioned a couple times on this site and on their podcasts as well.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:40 AM ^
Guys aren't just what they are as juniors who didn't even have a real season this year, BUT accuracy issues often seem to be a somewhat permanent thing. Given what we've seen with Shea, Milton, and McNamara, I wouldn't blame the read stuff on him though.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:42 AM ^
Yeah, he seems like a really hard-working guy and has athletic potential, but it always felt dubious that someone who struggled to complete passes in HS would suddenly become immensely more accurate in college.
December 14th, 2020 at 10:05 AM ^
That is three years of coaching mal-practice.
Sorry, that sentence needed a minor correction.
December 14th, 2020 at 10:11 AM ^
Meh, Milton still has three years of eligibility left. Even if he wasn't totally ready this year he did seem to make huge strides from this year to last year (just shows how raw he was before). Josh Allen immediately improved when Dorsey got hired and the trajectory has only gone up.
Milton has everything you can't teach. Now let's get him the right teacher for the rest of his game.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:06 AM ^
You can also say he immediately improved when Stefon Diggs arrived.
Hard to separate out the factors in Josh Allen's improvement, but my guess is that it is a combination of things. One that never gets discussed is that a big arm QB with wheels has the ability to create a lot of big plays even when his accuracy isn't all that great.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:15 AM ^
Correct! Josh Allen is a significantly better athlete than Joe Milton. Like not even close.
December 14th, 2020 at 2:01 PM ^
Milton never had QB instruction in HS. He just used his raw talent - run around and fling it.
But it's a ton of raw talent. What wasn't there was the basic mechanics. If you have solid mechanics your accuracy will improve dramatically. (D Mac had outstanding mechanics btw.)
So Milton works with McDaniels and Gardner; does 1000s of reps with proper footwork, proper arm follow through, etc. He practices really well but come game time he defaults to his bad habits - rushing throws, throwing off his back foot. etc. The same mistakes Josh Allen made when he started with Buffalo.
The other knock on Milton is his leadership. Cade is at the facility at 6 am, throwing balls to whoever wants to catch them, looking at film, doing whatever's necessary to compete.
Mechanics and leadership are two big hurdles to overcome. I'm not sure Milton can master both.
December 14th, 2020 at 2:43 PM ^
Where did you hear about the problems with leadership/hard work? If anything I remember everyone saying Milton was working the hardest during the preseason. Maybe things changed when he got benched or got the start but that was definitely the narrative pre season and much of the reason why he beat out McCaffrey.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:07 AM ^
Why do people just assume these great candidates would leave good roles and come to Michigan? The Bills are a good team. If he's good enough that you're pointing him out, that means he will also be in consideration for OC jobs in the NFL before not too long. Not to mention, it is an entirely different undertaking going from the NFL where you focus on just coaching to college football, where you fly all over the country recruiting.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:14 AM ^
Obviously it would take more than offering him a lateral move at Michigan. I'd imagine offering him a similar deal that Kerry Combs got, make him QB/Co-OC with the thought that he could slip in to OC if everything works out. He's worked at FIU as assistant athletic director so he understands the college football system, recruiting etc.
If he doesn't have OC options in the NFL, I think a move as OC or Co-OC at a program like Michigan would give him a larger spot light than being a QB coach in the NFL, but that's my opinion.
December 14th, 2020 at 10:53 AM ^
I don't understand the Coombs comparison. Coombs is from Ohio, went to HS/college in Ohio, spent his entire coaching career before the NFL in Ohio, and spent the 5 years prior to the NFL at OSU. Also, his time coaching in the NFL was spent under a HC who was an OSU alum and Coombs coached with at OSU.
Dorsey has literally 0 ties to Michigan.
Unless they have a personal connection to a school (or want to be in a specific location), I think there are almost no NFL coaches who would willingly take a lateral move from the NFL to college, especially a younger coach like Dorsey who is still moving upward in his career. The NFL is the goal for most people, so unless you're getting a clear promotion that you couldn't get in the NFL, I don't see why Dorsey would leave. And coming to Michigan to be OC under an offensive minded head coach, especially Harbaugh who is by far the bigger name and would be given any credit for an offensive turnaround, just doesn't seem appealing to me since Dorsey is probably on the fast track for an NFL OC soon based on your post.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:00 AM ^
Totally fair. It was just a thought given the similar flaws Allen and Milton had/have. My line of thinking is that he might be given an NFL OC position in a few years. I figured if Michigan hired him as a OC or Co-OC, he could stay for a few years, get some play calling experience and be ready to call plays in the NFL. But obviously some wishful thinking.
If he was able to turn around Josh Allen and then went and turned around the QB room at Michigan (which has been a disaster), then I think NFL teams would be all in on him.
December 14th, 2020 at 12:18 PM ^
Exactly - the region adores the Bills. I lived there during the 4 straight Super Bowl runs and the team has had good management even with a change in ownership after Ralph Wilson.
Josh Allen has made great strides over the past several seasons - and while a steady and effective coach is probably a key factor - his own interest in improving and the stability around him definitely helps.
That is the one concern with talk about blowing up the whole assistant squad. Were there some bright spots? Were there some areas of improvement that may not have shown up in the box score? A completely new system, new terminology, new approach may not help with trying to develop an OL, QB, etc. unless that person is well experienced in stepping and gradually molding an existing system. Some of the pro coaches are good at that - because the differences between systems at that level are more subtle and the players are all experienced and catch on faster and have all day to work on catching up (no practice limits).
December 14th, 2020 at 9:13 AM ^
How many ex assistants under Harbaugh, while at Michigan, have truly flourished? Most have not. Sorry to sound like a broken record, but Urban is right when he says blow the whole program up. Something is horribly wrong with the program going back decades now.
One can no longer ignore it.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:37 AM ^
If Urban said it, it's got to be true. He would never lie or be disingenuous. Listen, I understand everyone's concern and grievances with Harbaugh, but lets be honest, there is no secret sauce. There isn't a culture problem at Michigan, unless that culture is recruit great young men. The problem is no game changing players. Was Charles Woodson a great player because he had a great coach? Was Joe Burrow a great player because of his QB coach? How about Reggie Bush, or Tua at Bama, or Watson at Clemson? If we can't recruit a monster team like Bama or OSU we have to get a game changing player that can light a fire in the program. If Carr didn't have Woodson, would we have the same ridiculous expectations of this program? Those OSU teams that Carr, and Moeller beat were not as talented as these OSU teams. We want to believe we were this great program with this great tradition, but if we are honest, we weren't. We beat up on a pretty bad Big Ten, and still had a shitty loss or 2 every year but one. This is the culture of Michigan. This year is more of an aberration, than anything else. Bo's bowl record was 5 - 12, Carr's record was 6 - 7, Moeller was probably our best coach with a 4 - 1 bowl record and a couple shared Big Ten titles. The B1G expansion really impacted Michigan, more negatively than any other team. I won't even list RR, and Hoke's bowl records. I don't know if Jim is the right guy, and chances are he probably isn't, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking it's a simple job to get over the hump. We've only done it once in the since 1948.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:56 AM ^
When it comes to urban giving his thoughts on a football program and what should be done for it to be successful, I would take his advice over any person on earth except maybe Saban.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:32 AM ^
The problem is no game changing players.
This is undoubtedly one of the biggest issues - Michigan struggles to generate and stop explosive plays. It is very difficult for college players / teams to consistently string together 14 play drives multiple times per game. Modern football dictates that you need chunk plays to score enough points to win. To put together a team that can generate and prevent explosive plays against a B1G East schedule, you need multiple top 100 recruits. These players all have NFL aspirations and typically gravitate to schools that run football factories as opposed to schools that have a more traditional student-athlete model.
December 14th, 2020 at 12:23 PM ^
Game changing players: Nico Collins, 6-4 215, catches damn near everything thrown his way. Averaged almost 20 yards per catch in 2019, yet only got the ball 38 times in 2018 and a whopping 37 times in 2019. This is a Braylon Edwards/David Terrell type player who got 1/2 to 1/3 of the receptions those guys got. I mean “throw it to Nico” was the joke meme after 2018 and he got the ball less the next year.
December 14th, 2020 at 12:55 PM ^
Michigan definitely needs more Nicos. Could use some playmakers on defense too. I can't remember the last time the defense created a turnover.
December 14th, 2020 at 1:41 PM ^
I think Michael Barrett caused two turnovers against Minnesota. One pick and one forced fumble returned for a touchdown.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:57 AM ^
If Urban wanted to sabotage our program, all he would need to say is “I think Harbaugh needs more time to prove himself”. Instead he basically echoed the sentiment of 80% of the people on this board. I have more respect for Urban’s opinion than Herbstreit. Herbstreit talks up Michigan in the most patronizing, over compensating way that I’m incredibly surprised more people don’t notice it.
December 14th, 2020 at 12:34 PM ^
Did urban not explicitly say in the same conversation he mentioned “blowing things up” that he wasn’t referring to getting rid of Harbaugh but more the, player development, strength & conditioning, recruiting & culture side of things?
If my memory is correct, than he did exactly as you’re saying he didn’t & yet we have multiple people on this board & I’m sure others, that are using his “blow things up” line completely out of context.
Urban is possibly the goat college coach in my lifetime. He is also the coach who was removed from that position @ our most hated rival, who still works very closely with its current head coach & Urban’s hand picked staff. Not to mention whatever his position is in there athletic department. There is simply no denying his coaching acumen, there should however be an exceptional amount of questions regarding his sincerity especially in regards to the Michigan football program.
December 14th, 2020 at 1:55 PM ^
IIRC, Urban said “blow things up”, then qualified by saying he wasn’t ‘necessarily saying you fire the coach’. To me and many others on this board, this was a sign of respect from one coach to another, not a vote of confidence. Certainly Urbans comments are open to interpretation. The point was, he could easily have made a vanilla “needs more time” comment if he wanted to sabotage the program like others have insinuated. He obviously did not do that.
December 14th, 2020 at 2:31 PM ^
That’s fair.
Im of the opinion that if after year 6, you genuinely need to “blow things up”, it’s probably best to do so with different leadership.
December 14th, 2020 at 2:56 PM ^
I concur. If you’re going to “blow things up” and fundamentally change everything you do from a coaching stand point, one wonders why you would retain the current head coach.
December 14th, 2020 at 9:40 AM ^
I think a better idea is to surround the UM QBs with NFL talent like what OSU and Alabama have been doing. That seems to work.
December 14th, 2020 at 10:00 AM ^
Exactly!!!!
December 14th, 2020 at 11:05 AM ^
Well we just put 4 lineman into the NFL and DPJ is making some noise.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:16 AM ^
DPJ making noise with 164 yrds?
Don't pretend our staff developes anyone who wasn't making the league without them.
December 14th, 2020 at 11:19 AM ^
Remember two years ago when we had the best WR recruiting class int he country which included the #1 overall WR and we had a 5* QB transferring here to sling them the ball.
*big wet fart
December 14th, 2020 at 11:23 AM ^
Coaching matters!
December 14th, 2020 at 12:07 PM ^
C'mon man, let's not kid ourselves. That class had, CeeDee Lamb, Jerry Juedy, Tee Higgins, Henry Ruggs, and DeVonta Smith in it. He was only ranked #1 because he performed better in a t-shirt and shorts at the Nike camp.