RichRod's comments at Glenville
*** WARNING: Freep article ***
I'm not posting this to bash the Freep or to increase the odds that Section 1 blows an O-ring, although I think the guy is probably at risk for that. Maybe someone could modify his hosts file and redirect him to something happy.
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Here's some of what RichRod had to say when honored at Glenville State:
http://www.freep.com/print/article/20110521/SPORTS06/105210417/Rich-Rod…-
In case that doesn't work:
http://www.freep.com/article/20110521/SPORTS06/105210417/Rich-Rod-helpe…?
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Bring out your animated dead horse GIFs. :)
no. 16
I wouldn't care about what that guy says, aside from the fact that there are people here who actually believe it. Does it really take more than 3 years to move from a 4-3 to a 3-3-5? Does it really take more than three to keep an above-abysmal kicking game? While I don't blame him for saying these things, since after all, he wants to coach again and can't come out and say, "Yeah, I did a terrible job," I do blame the Section 1s of the world who won't concede the fact that their arguments are so indefensible that it makes them certifiable in the college football world.
Hoke took a team (with no recruiting power/resources) from 0 to 60 in two seasons, while RichRod took his from 80 to 50 in three.
that not enough focus is put on Bill Martin's & Mary Sue Coleman's roles in the last 3 years. After all, they hired RR.
You're the head of Michigan & its athletic department. You know what Michigan football's history is. There's dissatisfaction among the fan base due to a mediocre (by Michigan standards) record the last few years.
So you're interviewing possible head coaches, and a leading candidate is spread-only offense. You look at his last job and he took over a team that was mediocre the last few years, but was 7-5 before the switch, and he goes 3-8, 1-6 in conference, his first year. Umm. Are the results of this spread only, have to blow up the offense to save it approach something you're willing to endure at Michigan? And yes, WVU only endured one year of this pain before they had a very solid 9-4. But that was against the Big East, which is not as strong and not as deep as the Big 10. So, do you, the AD and President, consider that with stronger opponents that there's risk that it will take more than 1 year to revert to normal? And is that something that Michigan and its fan base are willing to put up with?
After all, go back to the Bump Elliot era. He was fired after going 8-2 his last year (granted there were a lot of sub par years preceeding this, but still) because he wasn't getting the job done. Michigan has high expectations; is this coaching candidate's approach compatible with Michigan's history and expectations?
He retired.
It is my understanding, Don, and if you have more information please correct me, that Fritz Crisler retired as AD, Don Canham was hired and Canham wanted a new coach who could fill the Big House. Remember Bump had lost his last game 50-14.
Bump was allowed to retire, because relations were cordial (Bump was that sort of guy), and because Bump was willing to accept an asst. AD job.
Correct me where I'm wrong.
To Assistant Athletic Director, and then named Iowa's Athletic Director, where he was quite possibly the best AD the school has ever had, and the greatest infulence on Iowa athletics since Nile Kinnick.
The 1969 Michigan-OSU game ball was given, rightly, to Bump, who gave remarkable support to the first-year Bo Schemechler.
I generally regard as insignificant the things that you and others on this board take dead seriously. For example, I couldn't give less of a shit about recruiting (in fact, I regard its hype as harmful to high school kids, who are only taught to regard themselves as god's gifts to the world); a fortiori, I don't give a shit about billboards.
However, the general reaction to your posts has reached the point of ideology. You and I may have different priorities (drastically different), but I respect your prioritization of things (even if I sometimes regard it as silly).
I don't think you deserve the treatment you've got lately.
Both while technically true just continued the "Michigan doesn't fire it's coaches" meme that used to exist. The question is, if they wanted to come back, as is, was that an option? In the immediate moment, no.
... "uh, promoted." Irony may have been a little too subtle.
He was kicked upstairs. But then he went on to become one of the great AD's the conference has ever seen. Bump has an answer to every question. All-American. Rose Bowl. National Champion. Rose Bowl Coach. Rose Bowl AD.
David Brandon really wanted to have a Bump Elliott Day last year, but Bump's wife was too ill. I hope that day comes soon.
And you, M-Wolverine, are not just technically correct about Moeller, you are correct, period.
But I didn't think posting board format was. Since my reply was obviously in response to Don, and not yours. And thus not a "correction" to yours. So maybe you out to take a little more time reading, before you get all defensive.
Though your last paragraph may have been a little more subtle. We may be in agreement, though I can't tell for sure. Moeller was told to take a ton of onerous restrictions that no one would accept, resign, or be fired; and was hurried into doing to before Bo could be contacted on vacation to squash the whole thing before it happened. In fact, it was pushed through so fast the President failed to consult the Regents about it, which in turn helped get him pushed out later. So yeah, we didn't fire Moeller. We didn't give him a lot of choice, either.
I agree that Bill Martin screwed up, but it starts a lot earlier than when he offered the job to Rich Rod. Keep in mind that Lloyd had basically told Martin in Jaunary that he wanted to retire. Martin had almost a year to put together a list of candidates and a succession plan, and he did pretty much nothing until Lloyd actually announced his retirement in mid-November. When the search did get under way, Martin was eventually outmaneuvered for one high-profile candidate (Les Miles) and turned down by another (Greg Schiano). Rich Rod fell into Martin's lap and "saved" a search that had run cold by mid-December (remember that it was Rodriguez' agent who initially contacted Martin, not vice-versa). By that point, he was probably so relieved to have interest from a high-profile candidate that he ignored the red flags.
I agree with you completely until the last few words. I think RR saved Martin and there weren't really "red flags". At this time, RR was trouncing the BE and Casteel was fielding top twenty defenses.
Doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes, doesn't mean he shouldn't have been fired, but I don't really see the red flags in 2007, other than the obvious fact that he hadn't played OSU/Wisconsin/Iowa/PSU every year in a weak BE, which is the case with almost every coach at the major college level.
True. I guess no one could have predicted the way it turned out and the problems that would arise. Back then Rodriguez was the hot name in coaching, especially after he turned down the Alabama job.
But I guess it just goes to show that the biggest name isn't always the right guy for the job.
Howeva, you also have to admit that you are clearly the type of person whose beliefs are set in stone and under no circumstances could you be convinced otherwise. RR could have faced every forseeable stroke of misfortune short of the rapture and you still wouldn't cut him any slack. If you are going to bring up Hoke's past success, then why can't you bring up RR's past successes--(which, by the way are more impressive than Hokes)? I love what Hoke is doing so far with recruiting, but remember he hasn't won a game yet at U of M.
I'll leave the rest of this alone...but the 80 is a big time stretch...we weren't cruising anywhere near that my friend.
And he conveniently left out RR taking WV from 30 to 80, but hey, let's not let other data get in the way of making a point that has been made literally thousands of times here in the past 6 months.
/NOT a defense of RR, who unquestionably needed to be fired
West Virginia was not doing that badly. The man RR succeeded, Don Nehlen, is in the College Football Hall of Fame. Nehlen twice went undefeated in the regular season at WVU and had them as a regular bowl participant.
Something about RR seems to make people on both sides not think clearly. He's neither Urban Meyer nor Bobby Williams. He has some strengths and some flaws. His set of strengths/flaws ultimately didn't fit that well here. Maybe they will better somewhere else.
Changing Michigan from what it was into a successful spread-based team was like trying to do a 180 degree turn in a cruise ship. There was so much momentum going in the original direction in the form of history, culture, personnel, etc., that RR probably didn't grasp it all until he was turning the rudder and the ship was barely moving. I think that since he left and we've seen the resurgence of all that original momentum that none of us really understood how strong it was.
I agree RR deserved criticism and deserved to be fired. I disagree with the degree of hatred that comes from a lot of people in the anti-RR camp.
RR took an above-average to mediocre defense and turned it into an atrocity. For this, there is no excuse and that alone probably merits his dismissal. Although he seemed like a likeable dude, in some ways he was a PR nightmare (Josh Groban, etc.)
On the other hand, give credit where it's due. He is responsible for one of the greatest offenses in the country. He recruited and landed a kid in Denard that is both exciting on the field and impressive off it (though it is a valid point to note that he *tried* to land Pryor, but who knows how his trajectory would have changed in Ann Arbor). By all accounts, RR seemed like a good-natured, likeable dude. Although the NCAA violations are problematic and should probably be counted as a negative in RR tenure, they are not the type of violations that raise questions about his character (IE, those violations were idiotic - consider, in the supposed "year of scandal" in NCAA FB, how many people are talking about the "major" NCAA violations of the winningest program in NCAA FB history?)
RR should have been fired. But part of the reason that he could not work at U-M is our own damn fault. I look at the RR era with a more introspective eye. RR exposed some major flaws in our fanbase. Collectively, we did not give him a fair shake. His path was much harder than it should have been, and a lot of that is on us - fans, former players, etc. Some of the problems in the past 3 years were his fault, some of them were our fault. I'm not going to assign percentage fault, but I will say that at least part of the reason RR could not succeed here is because the U-M community was breathing down his neck from day 1. The fact that we, as a fanbase, could not support our coach even from day 1 is sad.
Hoke is facing the same issue as well, and IIRC, Lloyd Carr was not people's first choice either. In fact, it is likely that if Moeller was selected today, in the era of the internet, that people would have been screaming as well because of his abysmal head coaching record. Anytime you go into a new place you have to expect to have those who will support you, those who will oppose you, and plenty of fense-sitters waiting for a side to fall onto. Additionally, you have to have a plan on how you are going to deal with each of these factions. This is creating cultural change 101, and Rich Rodriguez did not seem to have a plan. In contrast, Brady Hoke has come in, built relationships with those who supported him, reached out to those who didn't, and has built a lot of momentum with the fense-sitters.
Rich Rod is known as a control-freak (probably why Casteel did not follow him...which btw I have heard he may not even be at WVU next year as his relationship with Holgorsen is not good) and tried to do it all on his own, his own way. If he knew it was going to take more than 3 years after the first spring, why not play a style of ball that the current players could be successful with instead of struggling with an entire class of players? Install your offense incrementally and do what is right for the players. If you don't have the players you need to run your offense, why try? I liked RR and wanted him to succeed, I was hoping that he could upgrade what he was able to do at WVU, but he didn't. Coaches are paid to get the best out of their players...I believe that includes setting them up to succeed not accepting failure until you can get "your guys" in there. He had an obligation to do the best he could with the kids who chose to stay...and it is obvious from the statements he made that he failed them...and still chooses to blame Lloyd Carr. If RR had given Lloyd's players the same assurances that Hoke gave Denard, I am quite sure more would have stayed and we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
in part because of the way Brandon conducted the search. DB made sure to be seen as publicly considering both Miles and Harbaugh.
The people he has left to win over are myself, and a many others on this site. We like his regional recruiting wins. We like how he hates Ohio State. We are concerned the return to manball might equal Tressel or Lloyd ball, and cause re-transition issues. We are concerned about his coaching record to date, and how that will translate to the B1G. (Obviously Rich's track record was better when he was hired, so why would we not be concerned about Hoke's?) We are concerned about how things looked at the spring game. We are a little concerned about national recruiting, but we'll see on that one.
The interesting thing is, we (Section 1 included maybe even), are not close minded like some of the most ardent low point Rich Rod bashers who have come out of the woodwork on this site. We are just waiting to see how the product is delivered on the field, and are steeling ourselves against the though of another rough transitional period.
David Brandon took a risk in hiring Brady Hoke. I think we get the criteria he considered in hiring him. A lot people hope he was right / really don't want to be Notre Dame.
Although the NCAA violations are problematic and should probably be counted as a negative in RR tenure, they are not the type of violations that raise questions about his character (IE, those violations were idiotic - consider, in the supposed "year of scandal" in NCAA FB, how many people are talking about the "major" NCAA violations of the winningest program in NCAA FB history?RR is both mentioned and pictured in the cover story of the ESPN The Magazine "Busted" issue.
SDSU had no recruiting power/resources? What the hell are you talking about?
If anything, SDSU was THE sleeping giant among mid-majors the last decade. Hoke gets credit for waking it up, but you're making it out like it's Six Toe State and nobody would want to go there. They're in San D-freaking-iego!
It's been for more like the last 30 years....
"We like to think that every place we've been to, including Michigan, that it's in a better spot than when we first got on campus. "
I would agree to the extent that there is more talent and experience on the roster now than there was when he got here.
If we're taklking about the new facilities.
Outside of the improvements to the weight room, for which he is to be commended, I'm not sure whether he played much of, if any role in the facilities upgrades that occurred over the past three years.
Share what ye smoke, player!
-We had a 65938 year bowl steak before RR arrived; now we have a streak of one (where we got crushed in epic fashion).
-We had an endless winning season streak; which is now at 1.
-We had slapped Sparty all over the map; we have now lost 3 straight.
-We lost our recruiting power (think of all of our current commits saying that would not have played for RR); and are now working to rebuild it
-We had never been sanctioned for NCAA violations; and now we're on probation
So, did RR make things better? Of course not. He is the master of blaming others for his mistakes and shortcomings. It's nice to have a "no excuses" attitude now in charge of the program.
I would agree to the extent that there is more talent and experience on the roster now than there was when he got here.
*emphasis added
At first blush, that might seem accurate, but when you dig down into it, it's not anywhere close to accurate. The team that RR put on the field his first game might not have had as much talent/experience as what will hit the field for Hoke's first game, but that's a different story (which has much to do with the two coaches' efforts in that regard).
I wasn't agreeing with the idea, just pointing out that your response was arguing a totally different point. R Kelly made a comment specifically referencing the personnel that Rodriguez inherited v. left behind and you responded with various streaks and (obviously made-up for effect) stats that didn't address anything about personnel.
That said, I think your list a couple posts down is a little misleading, as players like Manningham (and arguably Mallet) were more than likely gone no matter who the coach was (Rodriguez, Carr, Hoke, DeBord, Miles, etc). So they weren't really "inherited" by Rodriguez, they just weren't seniors in 2007.
You just can't claim that Manningham and Co. weren't inherited by RichRod upon his hire. Common "wisdom" was that Denard and Devin would transfer with the Hoke hire; but they didn't leave. Hoke could have "inherited" (by your standard) Kennedy at QB, but he changed the common "wisdom" and maintained the players on the roster as of his hire date.
The coach inherits the players he inherits. If they should choose to leave after the new coach is hired...it doesn't mean they were never there.
Again, you're not really responding to the point being made. You're aiming (slightly, at least) off target again.
I specifically said that players like Manningham were more than likely gone regardless of the coaching situation. Denard transferring because they brought in Hoke would have been a different issue than Manningham going pro independent of the coaching situation. I absolutely credit the new coaching staff for keeping almost the entire team at Michigan; Rodriguez definitely lost a lot of players unnecessarily. I'm just saying there is a difference between a new coach losing players that are there waiting for him v. a player who was out the door no matter the coach. That's the difference between Manningham (who I wouldn't "count") and Clemons (who would have "counted").
I'm not trying to defend Rodriguez, the guy had some terrible luck at Michigan but he clearly screwed some things up all on his own. Just that this (recent, as far as I can tell) mentality that the 2008 squad that Rodriguez got (even before the rash of transfers) was somehow equivalent to the 2007 squad that was loaded with seniors (and at least a couple NFL bound juniors) is odd and, in my opinion, wrong.
Just watch the time and keep good records, okay? And for God's sake, don't talk to any reporters about it.
Cue the "RichRod didn't try hard enough to keep Manningham and Arrington out of the NFL draft" ridiculousness.
If the "RichRod didn't keep Manningham/Arrington/Warren" thread ever came into conatact with the "Beilein let Morris go to the NBA for the good of all mankind" thread, the universe would collapse on itself.
...And what was said about Denard and Devin transferring if we hired Hoke? Hmmm....What's that?
It's purely a matter of comparing apples to apples; not apples to "they were there but everyone knew they were gone".
I think you need to look up what apples to apples means. 2 players leaving to get paid millions of dollars in the NFL is an apple. 2 players transferring and playing football at another college because of a coaching change is an orange. You can't compare the two because they aren't even close to the same.
So the facts you want to compare are the people who left under RichRod, who was here for 3 years, and the people who have left under Hoke, who has been here for a couple months? Sounds good to me. Let's start with Manningham, Arrington, and Mike Martin. I mean, RichRod is totally to blame for those 2 WRs leaving and I love Hoke because he totally kept Marting on the team. This alone shows that Hoke has won more games at Michigan than RR did.
If you stop letting your blind lust for RR cloud your head, you'd be able to understand a very simple notion. If you compare the roster AS OF THE DATE OF HIRE of each coach, then you see what existed (and what was left). It's not about whether Arrington was going pro or whether Hoke convinced Denard to stay. It's not "comparing people who left". It's just a simple, no qualification view of the roster. Why that's impossible for you will remain a mystery.
Frankly, it's unreal that anyone is arguing that RR, in any sense, was correct in saying that he left things better than when he arrived.
Go back and read what I said again. I explicitly stated that I was only speaking about the talent level on our current roster as compared to the talent available on the roster in January 2008. I don't think anyone is trying to argue he left the program as a whole in better shape.
I honestly wonder how people with reading comprehension as poor as yours even graduated high school? Did you? Read what he said again and then look at the flat-out DRIVEL you posted and tell me they are related.
I'll respond to you and not RKelly because you seem to be making the same point, except that you were particularly obnoxious. RKelly said that RR left us in a better spot than when he arrived in the sense that "there is more talent and experience on the roster now than there was when he got here."
So, this "miraculous high school (and grad school) graduate" will post more of what you will call "DRIVEL" before you run back to sketch out your latest dungeon map:
When RR took over the program, he inherited the following:
Mario Manningham
Adrian Arrington
Justin Boren
Ryan Mallett
Tim Jamison
Brandon Graham
Morgan Trent
Donovan Warren
David Molk
Troy Woolfolk
Steve Schilling
Junior Hemmingway
Greg Matthews
Brandon Minor
Mike Massey
Jonas Mouton
Ebi Ezeh
Stevie Brown
Zoltan Mutherfucking Mesko
...and likely others that I forgot to note
Some of them may have transferred or gone pro, but that is the state of the roster when he arrived. I'm not even counting some of Carr's incoming recruits that RR inherited (like Mike Martin)...although I'm not counting them as RR's either.
RR left the following:
Denard Robinson
Devin Gardner
Matavious Odoms
Roy Roundtree
Kevin Koger
Taylor Lewand
Kenny Demens
Craig Roh
Will Campbell
Carvin Johnson
Will Hagerup
RR did indeed leave some talent upon his departure (and I'm sure I forgot some here as well), but did he leave the program in better shape (in terms of talent and experience) than on the date of his hire? No. I don't know if RR left anything in better shape than when he arrived. Given his record (and the records he broke) at Michigan, RR's statement is the height of arrogance.
"Ebi Ezeh" couldn't even knock Obi Ezeh out of the starting lineup!
This list is misleading. Besides the fact that you listed four players who never played a second for RR (already been pointed out above, not a discussion that I am going to get into), you also listed some players who were either very young and not ready to take the field in 2008, or were never very good players at all.
Hemmingway (IIRC, out for the majority of the season due to illness, and only a sophmore)
Warren (only a true sophmore)
Mouton (very little, if any experience when inherited. Still undersized)
Stevie Brown (still at safety in '08. No one here would argue Stevie was an effective college safety)
Greg Matthews (true sophmore with little experience)
Obi Ezeh (the struggles of Obi have been discussed ad nauseam on this site)
Molk/Schilling (very little experience, very young)
Graham (inherited as a 287 pound monster of a DE, transformed into his upperclassman form under Barwis).
This year's team returns close to 20 starters, most of which are upperclassmen with multiple years of playing experience. Most importantly this team will have depth, talent and experience at the most important position on the field, quarterback. 2008's team was at best a 5-7 football team. I think most everyone here would agree that this year's team would be greatly underachieving if they only finished at 5-7, in December we were all expecting at least 9-3.
Wait...seriously? Graham's success is due to Barwais? Ezeh and Matthews (who did pretty well in the Capital One Bowl against Florida) don't count? Warren, the prime time recruit and a leader on the 2008 defense, doesn't count?
Anyway, this diversion was about whether or not RR left the roster in better shape (talent/experience) than the day he arrived. You can't just pretend that a number of players, who chose to leave AFTER RichRod's arrival, don't count. If Denard and Devin transfered, would they not have been part of the team as of Hoke's hire? Of course they would.
Look, Rich can go on about how he needed more time. That's an arguable point. It's another thing entirely to produce the worst three year stretch in the program's history and then say "I left it in better shape then when I arrived".