Regarding Schlissel's academic talks recently
http://www.usnewsuniversitydirectory.com/articles/colleges-that-rank-we…
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/na…
Michigan is 29th on the second link list. Currently we are not on the first link list because, well we have not been good at football lately! Schlissel, Hackett, Harbaugh I believe will raise the bar for us to climb both lists. I was a bit surprised that UCLA and USC along with North Carolina were so high?
Five Cali schools in the top 25 academically (I guess I just did not think those institutions, save Cal Berkley and Stanford, were up that high academically).
Interesting article to read with the hope we now have for the future! Even though I was never a UM student, I have multiple family members and very close friends that are either current students are alumni. I take pride in being a Michigan (total school) fan!
January 12th, 2015 at 12:09 PM ^
For YEARS, MIchigan, UVA, UNC, UCLA, and Berkeley have gone around as the top public schools
January 12th, 2015 at 12:12 PM ^
And don't forget that USC is also a private school, along with Stanford, and that California has the highest population BY FAR of any state. They're pushing 40 million residents, while TX is second at about 27 million.
January 12th, 2015 at 1:39 PM ^
You hit on something very important there. The Top 25 is absolutely dominated by private schools and a lot of it has to do with funding and faculty ratios. State schools have higher faculty/student ratios and are worse funded (consider that tuition for our in-staters which represent 60% of the undergrad body is only $23,000 while these other schools are charging $50,000+ for every student). For the last 25 years we've always been in the 21-29 area and usually us, UCLA, Berkely, UVA and UNC Chapel Hill are the only five public schools in the top 30 and none that I can remember has ever pierced the Top 20. We were typically around 23 to 25 until about 10 years ago when the State of Michigan really started slashing funding and we started to settle back to about 27 to 29. We've actually become more selective in the last few years since the common application kicked in with our admissions changing from one in two being admitted to one in three being admitted. The funding is what's keeping us from moving up. California gets the benefit of a HUGE applicant pool and they fund their college system very well which is why they are so high. I will never understand why UNC Chapel Hill is up there with the other 4 public schools. Its a very tough school to get into from out of state but thats because they maintain an over 90% in state ratio. Its a good school but I don't see why they're just a ranking point behind us.
As far as Schlissel's comments, you need to understand what he means. The University's mission does not include athletics. Athletics, just like intramurals, are just something the University provides. The mission of the University is to educate and do research. If you read the interviews he very clearly points out that the AD is its own unit which creates its own funding and its primary mission is athletics which is why its not the University's problem. Truth be told, the President shouldn't have to poke his nose into athletics as long as everything is running right.
January 12th, 2015 at 2:50 PM ^
The thing that just kills public schools on the U.S. News list is the "Alumni Giving Rate." Private schools invariably fare better in this regard than public schools do.
January 12th, 2015 at 1:40 PM ^
Double post. Sorry
January 12th, 2015 at 1:50 PM ^
you are emphatically saying that for years Michigan and the other schools have been seen as top public schools? With my original post I meant that Michigan was not included on the Football specific list because we have not been very good at football recently. With Schlissel, Hackett and Harbaugh my excitement for the university goes up. That hopefully we will be added to the football specifid list.
Go Blue!
Edit: this reply was for quigley blue
January 12th, 2015 at 3:55 PM ^
The US News rankings are fine but they really focus on undergrad only and have several flaws. They are biased towards private schools which enroll a lot of wealthy kids.
Michigan's strengths include the many excellent graduate schools and the large number of highly accomplished faculty.
The Academic Rankings of World Universities has Michigan #22 in the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities
January 12th, 2015 at 12:09 PM ^
Why do people think the US News and World Report rankings mean a lick of anything?
January 12th, 2015 at 12:11 PM ^
Sent from MGoBlog HD for iPhone & iPad
January 12th, 2015 at 12:12 PM ^
Because schools can actually play the metric, game the system, and dump money into the things USNWR thinks are important, too.
See: http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/09/your-annual-remind…
January 12th, 2015 at 1:29 PM ^
January 12th, 2015 at 12:25 PM ^
They matter because a school's undergraduate "market"---prospective students and their families---pay (arguably outsized) attention to them. Perception drives reality.
The NYT published a nice data set about students who were admitted to two (or more) universities, vs. what they eventually chose. If you choose U-M as your comparison school, you'll find that the resulting list closely recreates the US News rankings---and that's even with a positive bias because Michigan residents (for whom U-M is a really good deal) are over-sampled.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/09/04/upshot/college-picks.html…
January 12th, 2015 at 1:53 PM ^
These things are used in decisions by potential students, by graduate schools in choosing between applicants and by employers. I can speak to the latter two. When I was in law school (not at Michigan) I know that they considered grades at a more highly ranked school above a lesser considered school as I worked as an ambassador for the law school. Without revealing too much I can also tell you that a direct family member of mine was on the admissions committee at one of the major UM professional schools and you can bet they considered the reputation of the college you came from. I can also tell you as an employer that when confronted with a pile of 200 resumes for a job, I'm going to start by looking for the ones from kids who went to better schools. Sure some of those people may be awful when I interview them but when confronted with nothing but a pile of statistics on paper, what else do you have to go on but the credibility of where they came from and their performance while there?
I know there are people like Bando out there who hate these rankings and think they're worthless. While I respect the idea that, sure, there are some great people who graduate from lesser considered schools, and total losers who graduate from schools with good reputations, ranking like this are part of our society and will always be so for the sake of our graduates and future graduates, the University needs to do what it can to stay as high as possible in these rankings.
January 12th, 2015 at 2:56 PM ^
January 12th, 2015 at 12:38 PM ^
They are by far the most readily available. Employers use them when recruiting (they can't go to every school). High school students use them to determine where to go to college, and thus more qualified/accomplished students end up going to those higher ranked schools.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:44 PM ^
For the same reason that Consumers Reports ratings of vehicles mean something. Not because the ratings are well-prepared, but because they are well-publicized.
FWIW, Times Higher Education is a London-based publication focused strictly on education that, in cooperation with Thomson Reuters, issues a world ranking in which Michigan is currently ranked 17.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15…
January 12th, 2015 at 12:10 PM ^
January 12th, 2015 at 12:12 PM ^
Nope.
January 12th, 2015 at 2:51 PM ^
Based on what?
Did you look over Michigan's faculty hirings over the end of her tenure, compare those hirings to peer schools' hirings, and walk away disappointed? Do you think the research output has been lacking lately? Are recent Michigan alumni not competing on the job market as well as they did a few years ago? Maybe UM students' final exams and papers aren't of the quality that they were in the early MSC years?
What on earth is a claim like that based on? Ranking colleges isn't like ranking college football programs. The latter is tricky. The former is damn near impossible, especially when it comes to picking up meaningful changes in the rankings over a few years.
EDIT: This was a response to a message that went bye-bye.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:30 PM ^
What year did you graduate from UM, and why do you think the institution has declined since you left?
January 12th, 2015 at 1:58 PM ^
I really don't think its a reflection of the education. I can definitely tell you its INFINITELY more difficult to get in now than it was ten or twenty years ago. The average GPA unweighted is now a 3.85 (again, that doesn't account for bumps from AP/IB/Honors Classes) and the middle 50% on the ACT is 30-33. For reference, that's an unweighted GPA of an A- average. Thats crazy.
January 12th, 2015 at 2:11 PM ^
My daughter will be going in a couple years and I was stunned to see how much harder it is to get in than it was in the early/mid 90's. A 30 ACT and a 3.6+ GPA was more than enough back then. Now, not so much.
No slacking off in HS for her.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:10 PM ^
What about the academic cheating scandal that went on down there this year?
January 12th, 2015 at 2:00 PM ^
That came out right at or after the rankings. If you see a hit for that, it will be next year. Again, I think things like student/faculty ratio and peer ranking and funding have more to do. For the cheating scandal to mean anything they'll have to take a hit in peer ranking. Hard to say if that will happen or if most people will just see it as an athletics issue.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:23 PM ^
College rankings are subjective. The USNWR ranking criteria are biased toward private schools. Here is another ranking that rates U-M #17 in the world.
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15…
Times Higher Education is an academically oriented publication based in the UK vs USNWR which is a general news publication based on the East Coast.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:12 PM ^
It's easy to climb that list when you give out all A's in fake classes.
I'm looking at you, UNC.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:13 PM ^
Zero surprises that Cal Tech is a top 10 school. USC and UCLA have always been fringe top-25.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:24 PM ^
January 12th, 2015 at 12:32 PM ^
I was speaking in relation to historical academic rankings. I thought that USC and UCLA were always in the 25-30 range. Personally, I do agree that UCLA is a much better school than USC, but that opinion is heavily biased.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:25 PM ^
January 12th, 2015 at 12:28 PM ^
but your name is crazy
January 12th, 2015 at 12:30 PM ^
Google, uhhhhh, "Football Arm Tackle Machine" or "Football Gauntlet"...
January 12th, 2015 at 12:43 PM ^
what he is referring to, still an odd choice in names, IMHO
January 12th, 2015 at 12:59 PM ^
The quality of kids going to each is night and day. USC also has a very strong admissions preference for kids with money - as in they give a GPA bump in their process to private schools.
USC also does not compare when it comes to research. It's a good school, but it's not UCLA.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:14 PM ^
behind Berkeley, Virginia, and UCLA. Not clear why we'd be behind UCLA.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:34 PM ^
UCLA is a really good school with higher admission standards than UM for both in-state and out of state. Obviously when picking between any of the top 5 schools you are just splitting hairs but UCLA is a real good school.
January 12th, 2015 at 12:51 PM ^
SAT Math SAT Reading ACT
UM 650-760 610-700 28-32
UCLA 600-760 560-680 25-31
Source:
January 12th, 2015 at 12:59 PM ^
These stats are not the same as the ones on the UCLA website. Per their website, admitted freshmen from 25th to 75th percentile are reading scores of 620-740, and math scores of 650-770, and act of 28-35.source: http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/Prospect/Adm_fr/Frosh_Prof14.htm
January 12th, 2015 at 1:25 PM ^
Who are you going to believe, UCLA or bobthewonderdog?
January 12th, 2015 at 1:42 PM ^
Well, he is a wonder dog.
January 12th, 2015 at 4:10 PM ^
I assume he got caved, but why?
January 12th, 2015 at 1:26 PM ^
is dated.
Stats for 2014 ENROLLED freshmen (only data I could find on UM site):
SAT Math Sat Reading ACT
UM 690-770 650-750 30-33
UCLA 600-750 570-710 26-32
http://admissions.umich.edu/apply/freshmen-applicants/admitted-student-…
http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/Prospect/Adm_fr/Frosh_Prof14.htm
January 12th, 2015 at 1:35 PM ^
Well now I'm way off topic, but I am curious to see the same admitted vs enrolled statistics for UM as UCLA has. It looks to me like UCLA is "scraping the bottom of the barrel" and a lot of the most qualified students that were admitted are going somewhere else. I wonder if Michigan also reflects that.
January 12th, 2015 at 3:41 PM ^
UCLA is losing a lot of the top kids that are applying to Berkely which is part of their problem. It would be like State since almost every top kid that gets into both is choosing michigan they are going to be at the lower end of their admitted versus enrolled. I'm surprised UCLA's enrolled numbers are that low. They have an 18% admittance rate (michigans is 33%) and get more applicants than Michigan.
January 12th, 2015 at 4:41 PM ^
quite a few of the "hey, dude, going to college in LA would be AWESOME!" applications.
January 12th, 2015 at 3:43 PM ^
in general. Students on the lower end will have few options, those on the higher end will have many.
January 12th, 2015 at 4:36 PM ^
January 12th, 2015 at 12:35 PM ^
Two Words: Spirit Squad
January 12th, 2015 at 12:34 PM ^
The bigger question, I wold think, is where Michigan's rankings are trending. While I don't study USNWR, I believe our major graduate programs have been relatively constant, but I'm not sure the undergrad rankings are as high as they once were.
Does anyone have the year to year USNWR data?
January 12th, 2015 at 12:49 PM ^