Recruiting: M vs. ND
I don't really follow recruiting other than for us and what's on this site. I will note what programs other than USC are in the top ten, and where OSU ranked in a given year, but that's about it. So at the office the subject of recruiting came up, I said we were doing well again, especially given 3-9. So a guy in responds that ND has been out-recruiting us, beating us 2 of the last 3 years, and they have had multiple bad years and Weis to contend with. Doubting that (though knowing ND has been recruiting well) I do some non-premium snooping, and it turns out that strictly in terms of final rankings, it looks like he's right. And this year Scout has us about tied, but ND has 3 top 100 guys signed to our 1.
So, long preamble aside, to those of you who follow it more closely I ask, is this true IYO, and if so, why would this be? It would seem that we are as similar as two programs can be, and one could argue that ND should have a way tougher job recruiting because they've been sub-par for quite a long time, having really only that one Weis year of success to show. What gives?
We beat them in 2006 and 2007. So we've won 2 of the past 3.
Also, 2 years ago I would say they out recruited us, but last year Rivals had our class ranked 7th and ND's around 22nd I think. It's too early this year to say whose is better. That said, they have not beaten us in the recruiting trial, it has been pretty even, which is to be expected.
And yes, we've won 2 of the last 3, and last year was just a fiasco. I know, they were playing in the rain, but it was a game of a couple big plays by them and tons of turnovers by us. They won the game, but you can't be too proud of a win like that.
Notre Dame bragging about recruiting is like the Lions bragging about having a bunch of high draft picks. It doesn't mean shit if those players don't produce on the field.
Their players haven't.
Ergo, the argument is meaningless.
Last year they were way below us.
Catholic high schools.
ND has the advantage of automatically being in the Top 5 for ALL Cathoic high school football players and a significant percentage of the best high school football programs/players are at Catholic high schools.
Having their own TV network certainly doesn't hurt.
I was going to call bullshit on this assertion, but after checking out ND's commit list from 2009 it appears that at least 8 of their 18 commits came from Catholic High Schools.
Not so sure about this though: significant percentage of the best high school football programs/players are at Catholic high schools
I think they focus a lot on catholic schools, but saying they have a big advantage at Catholic schools is a stretch. 8 kids from Catholic schools doesn't convince me.
Yeah I don't really understand this and maybe I just haven't noticed but just because a prospect is Catholic does not mean he is born waiting for a ND offer to play football.
This is just an assumption, but the Catholic programs might be "assisting" Notre Dame with their recruiting. The coaches, AD's, etc. It might not be the recruit born waiting to play, but could be the coaches wish to send his kids there.
...a shared benefit by Notre Dame actively recruiting the Catholic kids? Take Cretin Derham in St. Paul, about 3 miles from my house. Of course they have Michael Floyd, and had OL Ryan Harris. Now, Seantrel Henderson. It benefits both schools (Cretin is where Joe Mauer, Chris Weinke, Steve Walsh Paul Molitor, me thinks, also went to school, and where my kids are going to go), the recruits have every game guaranteed on TV, a great alumni network, marquee bowl games if eligible, and Lou Holshtz gushing about shem on shee vee every week.
Its probably 2 things with the catholic schools. One being the discipline part of it and the 2nd being the academics. No one at ND is at ND just to play football, you have to be serious about your course work and have to be able to put time into both your studies and football. I am pretty sure academics are a decent piece of the private/catholic school decision. Being catholic is by no means a prerequisite.
Coaches want to send their kids on to whatever school has the best opportunity, for the most part (no comment on Ted Ginn). If he is a coach at St. Thomas Aquinas there is a good chance he sees a good opportunity at ND. I don't disagree.
As a catholic high school grad (former football player) and spouse of a ND grad, I am confused by your "two things."
First you mention "discipline." I don't think that is different between Catholic schools and public schools, especially at the college level. (See Mike Barwis) Second, you mention "academics" and say that no one is at ND "just to play football." I hate to burst your bubble, but ND is a full time football factory. They also take the "kids that qualify" and sometims those kids are only dreaming of ND as a stepping stone to the NFL. Kids who are serious about academics go to Northwestern, Stanford, Duke.... or places where football is not the "be all and end all" and they have more time for study.
I expected your two things to be: 1. Catholic or religious parents push kids into catholic schools, those same parents are prone to sway kids to Catholic colleges; 2. Coaches, teachers and administrators at Catholic schools get paid horribly and usually have a religious aspect to their lives (otherwise, why not go to public school). Those people probably push ND more too.
I just can't get over how similar "discipline" and "academics" are at Catholic schools and public schools.
It was really just an educated guess, and not meant to be the only things just what I have seen mentioned by recruits. I am not catholic and did not go to a catholic school so I can't really judge it for myself.
But those two things are pretty regularly mentioned by recruits when they're being interviewed about ND, so thats why I repeated it.
If the recruit is not serious about their academics then they will never see the field, even if they just qualify. I am not saying they all are 4.0 students but the athletes are held to the same requirements as the other students. Probably not admittance wise but to stay eligible yes.
Understood. But, all teams require students to maintain standards. BTW - My wife was a TA for classes involving football players at ND. She would NEVER say they are subject to the same standard as non-football players. It just isn't true. (BTW - If they were, then ND would only have time to impliment four to five offensive plays.)
I fully disagree but thats to be expected.
Do you have any evidence to back this up, or is it just just a flat out guess?
I didn't know this was a trial but this is what I know and have been told. And I have no reason to doubt it.
I like how people believe that athletes are treated the same as normal students. On that note, do you and your ND buddies that believe this want to set up a high stakes poker game?
Nah I was just at the horse track this past weekend and got my fill of gambling for now. I will let you know if I change my mind though.
Sipping an Allagash White while you were there?
I was the DD, yay coca-cola
A good friend from my hometown went to play football at ND. I was close with him and his family through football and track. He was probably the dumbest kid I had ever met, took nothing but remedial classes in high school. I know for a fact he didn't crack 20 on his ACT's. He wouldn't have been accepted to Eastern Michigan had he not been an athlete.
He had no problem qualifying at ND. Just because they get a couple East coast prep school kids every year with high GPA's doesn't mean that they have a higher standard for academics. Like many schools, they might not offer a kid they think is likely not to qualify, but if he meets the minimum standards, they'll take him just like any other school.
I agree that the admissions are going to be more lenient for a scholarship athlete but for you to say he is "the dumbest kid I had ever met" seems pretty harsh.
If he was so poor it sounds likely he had a learning disability and if there is one thing that is as constant as football with our players it's tutoring.
I doubt this kid would have graduated from high school had he not had a schollie to ND, making the school look so good. How can you say it's pretty harsh when you don't know anything about him? You love making completely baseless statements, don't you?
It's possible that he had a learning disability. That said, there's no way in hell he could pass the same classes a non-athlete ND student would. All major football schools have different standards for football players. If you think ND is any different you're simply delusional.
How's this? I think every Michigan football player gives money to charity, and prays for world peace before bed every night. And always gives the bum a dollar when he asks.
2009 recruiting classes
ND: 8/18 = 44%
UM: 1/22 = 5%
a significant difference... fwiw. maybe ND attracts Catholics, or maybe Michigan is too secular for 'em... I figure a bit of both
"Not so sure about this though: significant percentage of the best high school football programs/players are at Catholic high schools"
I think that this is more a function of those schools being private, which allows them to recruit kids to play HS football from a much larger geographic area than public schools. Oaks Christian is a good example of this... I'd imagine that those 9 or 10 D-I kids that they pump out every year don't just happen to live in the neighborhood. They choose to come to that particular school because of the athletic opportunities that it offers and the attention of college coaches.
So it's not so much the fact that these are Catholic schools but rather that they are private schools with well-known football programs. The fact that many of these schools are also Catholic is where the Notre Dame effect comes into the equation.
Players love the history, and the fact that they'll be on national television even if they blow. Both schools are very recruit-friendly (at worst moderately) even when they have bad seasons.
Recruiting is all about filling which ever team's needs with the most talented prospect possible. Who the most talented prospect is, is very subjective. Different people or websites use different criteria, offer lists are normally enough for me, but it all comes down to a person's opinion. And a good extent of it seems to come down to the High School all star games at the end of the year. If you didn't see the AA game recruits all seem to drop 2-5 slots vs. the UA game recruits at the end of recruiting last year on ESPiN, it became pretty obvious it is just another way to build ratings.
So I don't know enough about UM's recruiting needs beyond the QB but this is how ND has done over weis's last few years.
Offense:
Skill positions look great (WR, RB, QB) TE should never be a weakness for us, Could have used a QB last year but otherwise look good right now. The line got some depth this last go around and will hopefully continue to add bodies this season. Weis really wants a FB but hasn't been successful yet.
Defense:
Line was the key weakness the past few cycles, finding DT interested and admit-table also were just late identifying prospects. Secondary will be restocked this cycle, and Corwin is earning his pay. LB's enjoy Tenuta's aggresive defense.
Last year our recruiting class was somewhere just inside the top 25 but we took 3 special teamers, they're never ranked high but it was a huge area of need so whether scout thinks we have a better recruiting class than UM doesn't really matter to me. Its whether the staff is doing their job and getting the best prospects available.
a euphemism for "Golic kid?"
Such a funny guy
But no I meant a punter, kicker, and yes even a long snapper last year but there is a decent chance he never becomes more than a blocking TE.
At least he doesn't rap though
This year and last year UM has recruited just fine compared to ND. Plus with the totally different types of systems the two teams run, UM and ND aren't competing for a lot of prospects lately, particularly on offense.
The one year that hurt was the class that signed in Feb 2008 - ND was coming off a good 2006 season and two straight BCS bowls and there was a lot of local-ish talent for ND(Chicago/midwest) and ND cleaned up with Floyd, Rudolph, etc. Kind of a convergence of factors.
I don't think either team has much to be worried about from the other. Both teams have staff that can recruit, it's up to the results on the field to determine the foreseeable future.
There is no doubt that was an epic class not only because of who we pulled in but that there were no decommits during our 3-9 run, just amazing.
But your first point is a good one, that in past years it may have been a lot easier to compare the two programs when we went head to head but now it happens much less. Last year Lalota and Roh were high on our want list for sure but were not interested in ND in the end. We are definitely in more battles with USC, pOSU, and the florida big 3, than UM so it really becomes a bit of a moot argument.
I never really see any method to their recruiting. They seem to just take some random high ranked guys (along with legacies) and hope they work out. It almost is like well if these don't work then maybe the next batch of 4* guys will work (I see this a lot with their WRs and RBs). USC does a similar thing but they get 90% 5* can't miss guys along with a great coach in Caroll.
So much win
i am so glad i found this site
that front butt is indeed impressive.
I know that Weiss has blown since he got to ND and his only real success came when playing someone else's players. I think the thing that keeps luring these top kids into South Bend is the Superbowl rings he proudly shows off wherever he goes. I figure that has to be mesmorizing to look at as a recruit. Imagine how hypnotic it would be if Belichick came in there with all of his Superbowl rings. I would say that the mentality would be that he knows what the pro coaches want to see.
I don't like Notre Dame
Like all private schools, Catholic schools don't have to worry about silly technicalities like school districts, and can recruit (they really hate that word) from any district they want. So, many of them do cherry-pick the best athletes from their areas.
And from the time they get to school, their coach is saying "son, if you're good enough, you might get to play at NOTRE DAME someday."
So, really, despite every coach since Lou Holtz using ND's "high academic standards" as an excuse to field crappy teams, ND has a huge recruiting advangate at many of the "best of the best" because their coaches and schools have been steering them to ND since they entered school.
That is why I am afraid of the thought of Urban Meyer ending up there. If he does, as Yogi Berra might say, Norte Dame will be Notre Dame again.
I hope Weis does well enough to not get fired, but loses to UM on a regular basis. I think they would be satisfied with a bunch of 9-3 seasons and an occasional 10-2.
If Urban Meyer left Florida for Notre Dame, he could grow the program back into a powerhouse. If that happens, not only will we be competing for similar kinds of players, but we'll have to contend with his obvious Florida recruiting connections. Thinking about him at ND is worrisome.
outside of the occasional amazing #1 classes that some schools get, most of the top recruiting classes are about equal to each other anyways. I mean, what's the difference between the #9 and #10 teams anyways, for instance. For that matter, what's the difference between most of the top 300 or so players (outside of the VERY best kids)
One thing to keep in mind when looking at recruiting rankings - quantity is as important to the rankings as quality. This past year has an excellent example in two schools - Florida and UNC. UNC ended up ranked in the Top 10 while I think Florida was around 15. However, UNC signed twice as many recruits as Florida did.
If you look at the average star/player for the class, Florida's is WAY higher then UNC. In fact, UNC easily has the lowest average star/player of any team ranked in the Top 10.
It's also the national Notre Dame mystique. There are plenty of people across the country who still regard ND as THE pre-eminent college football program in the country. Some of it is the Catholic thing, but that just accounts for a portion of the enthusiasm. I agree with the idea that we want Weis to be just successful enough to keep his job, but not so successful that he beats us often. Do not want Pope Urban in South Bend.
I'd like to point out that I and my family is all catholic and we all hate ND. Jus' saying...some catholics are in the opposite boat.
First of all, I would be very disappointed if ND hired Urban Meyer. That would be a clear indictment against the program, like when Kentucky hired Calipari. Thankfully, I don't think this will occur. A ND alum of mine told me that when ND was talking to Meyer before they hired Weis, Meyer demanded like 6 recruits per year he could recruit no matter what and ND was only willing to give him 1. Remember, this is the same ND that already relaxes academic standards for their football players. If you don't believe me, just go onto Rivals or Scout and see the posted tests scores of their players over the last 5 years or so. Yeah some guys have high scores blah blah blah, but that doesn't change the fact that barely literate guys are being let onto the team too.
As far as where ND gets their players, of course parochial schools are going to steer players to the nation's preeminent Catholic university. But that hasn't really helped ND the last few years. It means that the alleged high star recruits were mostly overrated, or it means that Fat Weis can't coach. Either way it's bad for them. When one time sure thing NFL starter Sam Young looks so shockingly average on the field, you have to question the mental state of the program. Clausen also has made some questionable decisions on the field in the few glimpses of time where he has time to get rid of the ball.
Seriously, if ND does not at least have a respectable season next year, they're in serious jeopardy of a complete collapse. Unfortunately I live near many alums and even more annoyingly subway alums and I can tell you that the alums are clearly restless and growing impatient with Weis by the day. The subway alums are all just a bunch of bandwagon followers so their loyalties will obviously fade as the team declines. Put it this way, if the AD hadn't awarded Weis with a 10 year extension for almost beating USC, I am almost certain he would be gone by now.
In many respects, though, I think the damage has already been done. Regardless of other factors involved, I am firm in my belief that the number 1 factor a high recruit considers when choosing a school is potential to play in the NFL. That hasn't really happened at ND in recent years and so long as they are not producing NFL players on a consistent basis, no one will want to play there. I am also firm that the second most important factor for high recruits is their ability to develop and improve so as to prepare them for the NFL. That has also been an issue with Weis. As even the most loyal ND fans will tell you, there is little improvement in the players as they progress and it's already an open fact that Weis has trouble communicating with these young players. So the continued decline of the football program will snowball into recruiting very soon (like next year), once players realize they aren't maximizing their NFL potential at ND.
Time is really running out for the Irish.