Question on ND's Mindset
So I have a question ND's general mindset with expansion. People talk about them being forced out of the Big East (to avoid a B10 raid into the Big East) or else realizing they don't want to get frozen out of a super conference and rushing to join the new and improved Big 10.
So as it stands right now the Big10 is now at 12 (Nebraska) and the PAC 10 has 11 and looks like they're going for 16. Assuming the Big 10 wants to keep pace and get two 8 team divisions as well, it means we're raiding the Big East, period.
Right now we have 12. If we add ND and Missouri we'll have 14. We could stop there, but if we keep going we likely hit the Big East (unless we went Kansas and Maryland).
What I keep thinking though is how important Notre Dame's pride and its desire for independence are. Right now for example a lot of ND fans are talking about remaining independent in football and when the Big East implodes, going out to form a Catholic League for basketball and Olympic sports.
Let us assume the Big East is raided by the Big10 and ACC (the ACC possibly moving in response to a SEC raid on the ACC). Notre Dame can respond by joining the Big East and maybe bring some Catholic friends along to round out the conference to 10 or 12.
In this scenario Notre Dame gets itself into a conference and is in a sense independent. All the good Big East schools would have been raided away, so Notre Dame can dominate the Big East. They can win it every year and then squawk about how they deserve a shot at something lucrative because they won their conference. Same way they run they run their moves when they manage 8-4. They don't really have to surrender their indentity because they're the moneymaker in the conference and perhaps the power that brokers the conference TV contract with NBC. Basically they'd run this new Big East the way Texas runs the BigXII (and if Notre Dame gets some Catholic schools invited in they have minions like how Texas has Tech and A&M).
Am I reaching too much on this? Or do you think they'd go this route as opposed to the joining the Big10 and having to face a tough schedule every year?
"If all athletic directors are going to worship at the altar of revenue whoring, then all pretense about college athletics - at least football and basketball - representing quaint notions of amateurism should be dropped, and they should pay the players, rather than exploit them.
If athletic directors are going to judge themselves and their peers by how much money they can squeeze out of their athletic programs (read: out of the blood, sweat and tears of the players), then college players should demand to be cut in on the scam.
Sure, college athletics have always involved business principles, but until recently they have been somewhat tempered by the interests of the kids and academics and the mission.
And ND has always been seduced by these temptations ("Come sweet cash"), but forces in the alumni base, and on the BOT, kept ND from doing shameful and tasteless things.
In the weeks ahead we will see just how craven the profession of "athletic directors" have become, how weak and seduced University presidents are, and whether ND will throw in the towel and join 'em since they can't beat 'em."
1 Jan 2015:
Smelling of old corned beef, potatos and sour whiskey, the Irish faithful peer at the TV, watching at the Maize and Blue of Michigan rush out of the tunnel at the Rose Bowl, preparing to play their first game in an 8 team, 3 round playoff. It's been a rough stretch for the Irish, no conference, no bid for the playoffs and a NBC contract worth pennies compared to the BTN revenue. The weather though in Pasenda is amazing, blue sky, white clouds, a nice breeze, the Grand Daddy of Them All packed to the roof by Maize and Blue faithful, shouting taunts at the Texas fans. The Irish mutter about how much they cherish their independence, even as deep in their souls they wished they'd sign on that line in 2010.
What? This isn't 1977?
Independence has served ND well. They get to schedule games with an eye toward how each game affects other games. They can squeeze in an early season game to get an edge. They don't have to share TV money, etc.
Some ND supporters think ND is a cut above everybody else.
Many at ND realize the benefits of conference and CIC affiliation. But, giving up those advantages and dealing with their fans gives them pause.
So you have ND turning down the B10 and the tens of millions of dollars that come with that (because, of course, they insist on remaining independent) only to turn around and join the remnants of a picked over Big East? They might as well join the MAC and save on the travel.
what I'm trying to say is, people are acting like ND is joing to need to join a conference. Lets assume that view is true and the world is changing, so ND will no longer be able to have its sweetheart BCS bid and independence. Rather they're in a world where they need to join a conference for a BCS bid or else a playoff bid. If that is the case, why join the Big10 where they'll be one fish among many big ones (Michigan/tOSU/PSU/Nebraska/Wisc/Iowa all have a legit shot at being a Top 25 team any given year) when they go squat in the rubble of the Big East and be the master of their domain, which is kind of like independence.
There will be pros and cons to wherever ND went under that scenario
^^
Always insightful Irish
talks. If (When?) ND joins a conference, it will be the B10. The money they would be turning down to go to a lesser conference wouldn't make sense.
ND could try to stay independant and hope teams will find games to schedule with ND, but who knows what schedules/bids will look like with the super conferences.
I really can't think of anything other than "Fuck Notre Dame".
Whoa!!! Is it 1977 already????????
Screw Notre Dame. Give them a chance to come...and if not, go to 16, and let them find out that they are virtually extinct in the new college football landscape.
If ND joins the bigeast fully, it would likely be a preemptive move to keep teams from leaving, and/or to help expand the conference
are you suggesting that ND joins the BigEast in an attempt to form a more legit sub-super conference, perhaps to get to 12 teams? i had not heard this, but i am interested in hearing more.
does ND joining the BigEast in football give that group enough cred for them to start picking off some unhappy teams from other conferences like the ACC or Big12? obviously, they can pull in their rivals army and navy who are eastern geographically to get to 11 teams. they would need one more to get to a championship game. but that conference would have a national team in ND and a few big markets for a cable channel...
I am not trying to be coy or mysterious. Its just the way Swarbrick, the AD, has talked about join conferences in the past makes me think ND wouldn't expect to just join the conference, they would want to lead it, and that can be hard to do if your the new kid in class.
ND likes their relationship with the bigeast for obvious reasons, and they are just as concerned about its welfare as their autobid to the bcs, they are pretty related. If the bigeast becomes in danger of dissolving in the same manner as the big12 is speculated to go, I would not be surprised to see ND use themselves to keep the bigeast together. Now that is making a lot of assumptions in how the next weeks , months and maybe years will play out, but I would/do not expect ND to sit back and just watch, I am sure they have had a pretty big influence on things already, beyond their own decisions.
Their probably thinking they should join one of those superconferences or their going to get left out.
I find it more likely that Texas goes independent than Notre Dame joins a conference.
sadly
to give you another chance to see my sweet avatar
...have to remember this when I double post. I'll just say: USS Normandy, finest warship in the United States Navy.
What you ment to say was BB 63. We pulled along side her at Pearl and I shit my pants.
Just bustin balls sir. Crusiers are nice but holy shit those Battle Wagons are niiiccee.
in my mind is the ability to schedule freely and, thus, work towards a powerhouse season. it's been illustrated nine different ways how it's a financial screw up to not join the Big Ten. the ONLY reason i think they would join the Big East, beyond it's current non-football arrangement, is the weakness of the conference which would then, perennially, place ND football as a BCS contender by default.
BCS requires that a conference with an autobid have at least 6 teams be the same for a minimum number of years on a continuous basis to retain that bid. I will look for the link and edit this post if I can find it.
The Big East has only eight football teams, which means if they lose three they automatically lose their autobid. Between likely raids by the B10, ACC and even possibly the SEC, I would be very surprised if the Big East is able to limit the losses to just two teams. So, if ND joins, they still will be working each year for an at-large bid. I'm just not seeing the logic here, i.e. leaving tons of cash on the table by turning down a bid to a conference with stellar academics and effectively two BCS bids each year in order to go to a crap half conference with weak academics and no BCS bid. Then, again, we are talking about ND.
From the moves the Big 10 has made, I don't see any scenario where we go to the Big East. We now have 12 teams and can create two divisions (my opinion)
East: Michigan, Ohio State, Michigan State, Penn State, Indiana, Purdue
West: Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Minnesota, Illinois
All teams play all 5 division teams every year, and play a home and home with half the leage for two years and then the other half for two years.
The Big Ten can now get their championship game, which gives the cost incentive to add the 12th team, Nebraska, while adding a traditional power that can continue to make the Big Ten better.
I only see at max now, the Big Ten going to 14, and only of ND joins, when I see them adding Missouri, to even it out. 16, just doesn't seem to work for me for any scenario, for the Big Ten. So for me, its stopped at 12, unless ND signs up, at which point it rounds out with Missouri
I hate the idea of 16 teams, which is why I am irritated at ND. I believe they will end up in the B10 when all the dust settles, but it is their stubborness that is going to cause us to go above 12. I would even be open to stopping at 13, adding only NE and ND. Yeah, it's and odd number. So what. If the only thing we accomplish by adding RU or MO is getting from an odd to an even number, that's not enough. Just stop at 13, throw ND in the West division (which looks like it is the weaker of the two currently) and call it a day.
This makes a lot of sense to me. If the Big East implodes ND could still maintain its football independence if they formed some kind of Catholic league for the rest of the sports. Schools like PC, Saint John's, Seton Hall, Nova, G'Town, Marquette and DePaul would be interested
I think Tommy Tuberville makes some good insights in this video.
this is their last chance. It's the best fit, everyone knows it except them. if they want to stay independent then they'll be relegated to irrelevance. If they want to join the big east fully, fine. the big east sucks and will only suck more when whatever teams get raided from it by the big 10, acc, sec get replaced with conference usa and mac scabs.
They avoid being a second tier team in a true super conference and will negotiate a deal to be included in the BCS or playoff system. It isn't a dumb move but certainly doesn't speak to a desire to compete with the best.