Pryor
Maybe this just sour grapes, but Pryor can't throw a lick in my estimation. Yes, he burned us because he lofted a few deep balls. But just watch that guy try to throw a 10-yard out. In the dirt, every time. He'll get better as it seems to purely be mechanics (set your damn feet and stop leaning back away from contact), but he didn't show me much more than Sheridan in the throwing department. Unfortunately there's a slight difference in running ability.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:33 AM ^
he ducked out of bounds on runs, especially when there was a significant amount of yardage (or even a first down) to be made. Is he that afraid of contact?
January 6th, 2009 at 11:43 AM ^
Even the Fox announcers were knocking him for that throughout the game. I presume that he was taught somewhere along to way to duck out of bounds so as to protect his body, but I remember at least two times during the game when he could have gotten first downs by taking contact, yet he stepped out early.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:35 AM ^
Those long throws were more our secondary (once again) not knowing what to do. Or how to tackle.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:45 AM ^
he'll be a monster in the near future. He's a season away from playing slow HS kids. This kid will haunt Michigan like a Troy Smith rerun if he improves his throwing mechanics. The running out of bounds may have been big game jitters?
This is a little OT but I really did not know that TOUS fans were so fed up with Tressel. check it out
http://firejtressel.com/
http://www.firecoachtressel.com/
January 6th, 2009 at 2:51 PM ^
Intelligence has never been the Ohio State fan base's strong suit, but who in the world would be dumb enough to fire a coach that (a) literally reversed the decade-long trend of their team consistently losing to their rival, (b) won a national championship in his second year, (d) consistently brings in top-10 to top-5 recruiting classes every year, (e) has consistently brought in at least one number-one ranked positional player in most of his recruiting classes, and (f) is likely going to finish this recruiting season with the #1 class in the nation ?
I mean, yeah, you got blown out in one game this year and lost two other close ones. Big deal. It's embarrassing, but who are they gonna bring in?
And isn't the whole premise of that second website that these poor showings will hurt their recruiting? Sure hasn't looked like it so far, unfortunately.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:40 AM ^
He's a freshman. I wouldn't be surprised if he is a Heisman candidate in a couple years.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:42 AM ^
I hope he realized this isn't High School anymore lol, if not he will next November thats for sure!!
January 6th, 2009 at 1:04 AM ^
Pryor's play as WR was what was really impressive in this game. He brought down that fade pass very nicely. Overall, he's still a true freshman, so he'll improve over time, which doesn't bode well for us.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:14 AM ^
are a funny thing.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:23 AM ^
His passing has a long way to go, but he has had better showings than the one tonight. Like MMB 82 I was more surprised by how quickly he was ducking out of bounds on a lot of his runs; he's not exactly what you'd call an inspiring performer, but hey, he's a freshman.
January 6th, 2009 at 1:31 AM ^
Like a golf swing, you can practice until you think you've got it. But you have to be able to hit it without thinking about it.
(is there anyone interested in a used set of Spaulding clubs? only slightly twisted)
January 6th, 2009 at 2:07 AM ^
you guys realize he's a freshman and will improve his poise in the pocket.
January 6th, 2009 at 7:47 AM ^
He throws better than Threet and Sheridan. The one thing I love about TP is his ability to stiff arm. It's beautiful.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:23 PM ^
No. He does not throw better than Threet, and he's on a 10X better team. Sheridan, yea, Threet, no...TP, for all the hype, throws ducks quite frequently at this point in his short career.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:34 PM ^
Threet throws mostly ducks too. They are about equal.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:53 PM ^
I definitely disagree with this. Threet has a pretty strong arm. His problem is his accuracy is atrocious.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:02 PM ^
then I think Pryor has a stronger arm.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:36 AM ^
Pryor is as good a runner as V. Young and he's definitely going to get better as a passer, but he's not a better passer than Threet right now. He has no vision whatsoever for throws and his accuarcy makes Threet look like Montana. Right now he can throw deep and he can hit a bootleg when he can see his receivers other than that he is useless in the passing game(Easy money betting under his 162yds passing total yesterday). Because of his insane running ability he will face very friendly pass coverages and eventually like Young he will hit those wide open guys, but as for the pros should be same story as Vick and Young.
I see now why he didn't want to come to Michigan I think he hates the whole running qb thing and he doesn't look like a fan of much contact. With his running ability he should have been Pat White in this game and been running all game. When he ran the option he was getting huge chunks at a time and he could have turned up 3 or 4 scrambles for huge yardage but just stepped out of bounds like he was P. Manning. I think someone above said it best...not very inspirational play. He needed to let it all out.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:38 AM ^
He wasn't the omg end all be all of QBs, and a lot of that has to do with his off the field issues anyway, but the guy wasn't anywhere near a bust in terms of his on the field performance. He did lead Atlanta to a win over GB, at Lambeau, in the playoffs if you remember more than the past 6 months.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:03 AM ^
Boren will be blocking for Pryor now - think Big Will, Death Roh, Martin, Lalota etc will have some motivation to do some hitting next November? Can't wait. . . .
January 6th, 2009 at 9:12 AM ^
I never said the word bust. I don't think Young is done at QB either if he gets his head screwed on. These guys can be very effective during a NFL season, but I think that these guys have a ceiling and that ceiling is when they run into a top NFL defense they are shut down because they can't read coverages or make the tough throws. A lot of guys can't make the tough throws. Harrington was the same he couldn't anticipate the openings in the zones. If in the right system or with the Ravens D they might be able to do it, but I think eventually the K. Stewarts, R. Cunninghams, Vick's, Crouch etc.. can't reach the top in the NFL. It's an intangible I can't explain it's like porn you know it when you see it. People may say what about Mcnabb I thought he could do it. When I saw him against Mich he made plays with his feet as well as his arm. Troy Smith was able to do similar things as well I thought. I don't see it with Pryor, but he's still young.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:04 AM ^
Crouch was never really considered to be a pro quarterback prospect. If I remember correctly, he spent college running. Troy Smith was too small; Pryor is, what, 6'5"? 6'6"? That won't be a problem. I don't hate him, just like I didn't hate Troy Smith. They're both impressive athletes and deserve all the accolades they get. Pryor is 18 years old; he's playing against 22-year-old men. If you don't think that's impressive, then I'm afraid of the level of expectations that will undoubtedly follow Tate Forcier when he gets here. If you're willing to think Tate is the Messiah, and discount his first year if he isn't, then cut Pryor some slack. He's a ridiculously talented athlete and he'll be causing huge amounts of trouble for Michigan for two or three years to come.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:32 AM ^
As much as I hate the guy (purely for being a Buckeye) I think we have to realize that even with the poor mechanics he led the big ten in pass efficiency as a TRUE FRESHMAN at 152.1
For comparison (via mgoblue.com)
Threet: 105.26
Sheridan: 81.09
I would have given my left nut for a guy with poor mechanics and a 130+ rating this year.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:16 PM ^
I don't see how that could be correct. Isn't his completion percentage like 40?
January 6th, 2009 at 3:00 PM ^
No. It's like 65%. And by "like 65%," I mean it "actually is 65%."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terelle_pryor
Hell, he completed almost 78% of his passes in the USC game. In fact, the only sub-60% completion game he has was against us, and that was around 38%, which would probably explain why so many M fans have the skewed perception about Pryor's abilities as a passer.
Granted, his numbers probably have a lot to do with the receivers making circus catches, but this "Pryor can't pass" meme needs to stop.
January 6th, 2009 at 6:18 PM ^
I didn't say he couldn't pass. I agree about the meme, and defended his arm (strength)in another of the 50 threads about this. I merely "questioned" that stat. I was wrong, should have checked first. Damn.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:54 AM ^
and he will torture us for 3 more years. Just saying the reason his pass efficiency was so high is that he would throw like 13 times a game and then when they have 9 in the box he can lob up a bomb and let Robiskie make a play. That's good football, but there is a reason they brought Boekman into throw last night. Pryor can't read a d or complete a hitch route. Henne as a true fresh was better, but he also had the alley oop to Braylon to bail him out. V. Young was the same as Pryor.. I think he blows as a passer, but he was awesome as a runner and won the NC nothing wrong with that... sign me up. Pryor looks on the same path..minus the pussing out of bounds like Franco Harris...I can go old school Dex :-)
January 6th, 2009 at 10:08 AM ^
Vince Young wasn't a terrible QB. . .he passed for 267 yards in that Rose Bowl game. It's not like he's the myth of the stereotypical "running quarterback" "athlete" "can't really throw". He was a great quarterback.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:20 AM ^
I said V. Young was awesome but he wasn't a great passer. The reason he threw for 267 was they had 11 guys trying to tackle him. Put him in Texas Tech offense and he is 3rd string
January 6th, 2009 at 10:09 AM ^
The tools are there. More experience, seasoning and maturity will go a long way to determine if he's going to be great, very good, or a could've-been.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:28 AM ^
So this terrific athlete chooses against Michigan because he wanted a establish himself as a throw-first pro prospect in a more pro-style offense. So he goes to OSU. We see that he runs as often as he passes, and even gets placed at wideout. We see that he is really great as a runner and actually pretty great as a receiver. He has not improved much this year as a passer, but they have really used his amazing athletic skills effectively all over the field. So remind me again why he went to OSU over Michigan? In my opinion - he would be the same QB in our offense as he will be in theirs. Unfortunately, he's in their's and he will torture us a bit.
January 6th, 2009 at 10:57 AM ^
He has freakish athletic ability. When he runs it looks effortless, but the running out of bounds early thing was weird. I concur, though. A lot of his passes have looked bad. Everyone is right when they say he'll only improve and iron out his mechanics, so yes, I'm frightened about the future.
Side note:
I was at the Buffalo WW when McCoy scrambled for the touchdown and a cheer erupts and some guy goes "TATE FORCIER BABY!"
We can only pray.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:01 AM ^
To me he still hasn't embraced the fact he needs to run to be effective he is trying to be a pocket passer and it's not working their offense blew this year. If they would have just run his ass into the ground ala Pat White they probably would have beat Penn St. or he would have been injured by now 1 of the 2. He was so impressive running last night escaping tackles, but he refused to take on tacklers and running out of bounds before the 1st down was horrible.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:14 AM ^
Way to go Pryor, having fun running alot and playing WR at OSU? I'm sure Tressel is really helping you develop as an NFL QB much better than RR would have. Pfft.
January 6th, 2009 at 11:51 AM ^
Pryor strikes me a lot like Michael Vick and and V. Young (I know, obvious), but also a good deal like old Tommy Fraizer at Nebraska. He's so fast, so athletic that he can make plays against virtually defense. Yet, if you stick him in the pocket you can tell he simply doesn't yet have the mechanics to throw that 5-10 yard passes that McCoy did all night. Even during the big Pryor recruiting buzz, I used to post all over the Freep forums that his throwing motion really scared me. Sure, he has a cannon, but so did Reggie Ball at GT, and that guy couldn't complete a short pass to save his life. The problem with playing at OSU, though, will be that Tressel probably won't teach him to be a better quarterback, instead allowing him to use his athleticism to dominate most of the teams in the Big 10. I still think he is supremely talented, and I don't blame him for going to OSU over other schools, but I think most OSU faithful are worried this kid will be nothing more than an evolutionary Juice Williams when it is all said and done.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:08 PM ^
Yeah, um, Troy Smith got a lot better as a passer while he was at OSU, so if Pryor doesn't improve as a passer I wouldn't really blame OSU's coaches. It's all about how much Pryor wants to work, and how well he takes coaching. The pure physical tools are undeniable.
January 6th, 2009 at 12:42 PM ^
I still question how much Tressel did to make Smith a better QB. The guy had decent mechanics coming out of high school, while Pryor has this goofy motion that is going to take some time to change. Just because a guy had better stats as he grew in a program doesn't necessarily reflect highly upon the coach - oftentimes the players simply grew physically, became more comfortable in the offense, and in the case of OSU played with great teammates. Plus, I can't think of another QB from OSU during the Tressel era that really improved over the years - Krenzel was always a pretty accurate but weak-armed QB, and the same with Boeckman. Plus, none of them made the transition to the pros, and the jury is still out on Smith. My point is that if I had a guy who could outrun anyone else on the other team, I wouldn't waste my time trying to teach him passing progression and check downs - I would let him exploit his athleticism and win me football games. Tressel needs to start winning some big games before the natives get restless, and his best chance of getting those victories will be with Pryor running around and throwing bombs when the defense cheats up. That will make Pryor a great college QB, but I'm not sure that he will improve as an overall, multi-faceted QB.
And to show I'm not a complete UM homer, I don't think Carr was a great teacher of QBs. Guys like Henne, Navarre, etc. never seemed to get fundamentally better as QBs from freshman to senior year. Just look at Henne's numbers year-by-year (60% completion, ~20 TDs, ~10 INTs). Solid numbers, but he never made that "Leap" that everyone envisioned.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:34 PM ^
1) You cant only look at stats when determining if he made the "leap" when the team changes drastically from year to year.
2) Carr didn't coach QBs, Loeffler coached Navarre and Henne. Also, if you don't think Navarre got better statistically and fundamentally from his freshman-senior year, you are absolutely mad (no offense). He went from a guy only Northwestern offered as a QB, where most others offered as a Defensive End(!), to a guy that somehow got drafted in the NFL and stuck around for a year or two.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:45 PM ^
1. I wouldn't just look at stats - I made the point that oftentimes guys get better because of the players around them, and that obviously means they may look better or worse than they are based on the talent surrounding them. With Henne and Navarre, though, I never felt like they were that much better year in and year out. Navarre improved during his time at UM, but I think he peaked toward the end of his junior year, and I'm not sure how much of that was coaching. Same with Henne - though I will accept that his injuries during the senior year probably hindered his growth a bit. I still argue, though, that he was essentially the same player he was as a freshman in terms of in-game playing - he was just really, really good as a freshman.
2. Then the onus falls on the QB coach, and that means whoever OSU uses as the QB coach hasn't been that solid at improving their QBs. I am not trying to knock Carr - I still think he is one of the most underrated coaches in recent memory. I just question how good he and Tressel (and by extension their staffs) are at developing top-line QBs.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:49 PM ^
John Boy was pretty lights out in 03, the Oregon loss was far more on the special teams. The Iowa game wasn't great but we did blow a lead there and it wasn't all on him.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:52 PM ^
It didn't help that Carr benched Braylon Edwards for significant portions of both games because he and Braylon weren't "on the same page."
January 6th, 2009 at 4:53 PM ^
Not true. Braylon was benched for a little bit of the opening game and that was it.
January 6th, 2009 at 2:58 PM ^
He wasn't bad in '03, but he also had Doak Walker-winner Perry in the backfield, along with a post-leap Braylon and Avant. I remember far too many games that season (my last year at UM) watching John zero in on Braylon at the snap and forcing balls to him. I know Braylon was the best on the team, but it felt like the same thing he did in '01 with Walker - lock in on one guy and chuck away. That's why I liked him the most in '02 - he lost the Walker blanket, and he threw around to everyone.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:00 PM ^
We also had two blocked punts in the Iowa game. That was when Boccher decided coaching was not for him.
January 6th, 2009 at 3:43 PM ^
Rugby Punt Festival 03....I had blocked that out. Thanks.
January 6th, 2009 at 4:55 PM ^
The annoying thing about that game is that now tons of Michigan fans assume the rugby punt is a dumb strategy. It works fine for plenty of teams. We just apparently didn't know how to block for it.
January 6th, 2009 at 5:37 PM ^
I think most OSU faithful are worried this kid will be nothing more than an evolutionary Juice Williams when it is all said and done.
Big 10 QB Ratings:
1. Terrelle Pryor 145.6
2. Darryl Clark 143.4
3. Juice Williams 138.1
Big 10 yards/game:
1. Juice Williams 264.4
Big 10 yards/attempt:
1. Juice Williams 8.3
2. Darryl Clark 8.1
3. Terrelle Pryor
Juice led the Big 10 in total yards passing, total yards, and yards per attempt. He was also the 3rd most efficient passer in the conference. If Terrelle Pryor became "the evolutionary Juice Williams", most would take it.
January 6th, 2009 at 8:03 PM ^
Juice also led the B10 in INTs with 16, and was middle-of-the-pack in terms of Comp % - 57.5%. He did have a large number of attempts for the Big 10, but nationally there were a number of QBs with more passes attempts and better comp %.
1. Furthermore, QB rating in college is, in my opinion, pretty useless in determining how good a QB is. Case in point - Juice may be #3 in the conference, but Dustin Sherer of Wisconsin is #5, with a sparking 6-5 TD/INT ratio and a comp % of 54%. Heck, Heisman Trophy front-runner Curtis Painter had a 118.05! The math behind the number, while sound in theory, rewards guys who throw a few bombs every game and doesn't penalize enough for INTs. Anyone who watched Juice this season knows that while her certainly has a decent arm, the accuracy is just not there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passer_rating#Calculation
2. Yards per game is great way for measuring how much offense a QB generates for his team, but it has practically nothing to do with accuracy of the QB, which was the point of my post. Juice led the B10 in rushing by a QB, and was always a threat to make plays with his legs. Rarely, though, did he scan the field while in the pocket - that's just not his game. He doesn't need to be accurate to produce yardage.
3. That is pretty impressive, I will give you that, but I don't know how much of that was due to having two deep-ball threats (Cumberland and Benn) at his disposal.
In summation, I'm not trying to knock Juice or Pryor as football players - I just wonder about how accurate they will be as QBs, and how will OSU fans enjoy watching it. They are good players, but players like Juice are also teases - you keep hoping that they'll get better/more accurate, but in the end they'll suck you in with some big games when the passing gets going, but far too often they'll throw that killer pick or go 10-27 against defenses that force them to throw.
January 6th, 2009 at 9:45 PM ^
Disagree wholeheartedly. Passer rating is primarily based on yards per attempt, which is the simplest and best way to measure a QB's effectiveness. When the QB threw a pass, how many yards did the team gain, on average? A guy like Painter might complete a ton of passes, but how many yards was Purdue actually gaining from them? It's not hard to rack up a good completion percentage when you're just throwing little 3-yard curls over and over, but it's not the best way to move the ball. Guys like Pryor and Williams went deep a lot more often, and while that sometimes backfired, it also paid off more. (Keep in mind, too, that not all INTs are necessarily equal in damage. An INT on a deep ball is functionally a punt.)
January 6th, 2009 at 10:42 PM ^
Good points, but what about YAC from the receiver? A QB who throws a pass out to the RB in the flats who then runs for 30 yards didn't do a whole heck of lot, yet has a great YPA.
Also, let's say a guy throws three passes - the first is a 30 yard bomb for a TD, the next an incomplete, and the third a pick. According to the college formula for QB rating, that player has a QB rating of about 160. Yet, the QB only completed one positive play. The problem I have with QB rating is that it doesn't punish enough for bad decisions or a mediocre completion rate. The big numbers come from TDs and YPA, which is effectively the same way I plan Madden.
With Pryor, we don't have a large enough sample size to really determine how accurate he will be, especially against good defenses. He's only thrown about 160 passes in college, and the offense is still new to him. I'm certainly not going to say that he won't be an accurate QB in the future - the jury's still out with him.
I look at completion %, TD-INT ratio, and when possible what types of passes the QB threw (10-yard outs are different than screens in terms of accuracy - despite our struggles this year to the contrary) and the YAC of the receiver. Since that is pretty rare to have all that info, comp % and TD-INT is enough for me.
Everyone keeps acting like I'm knocking Juice Williams or Pryor and claiming the guys are horrible QBs. Trust me, I would be ecstatic if they were lining up behind center for UM next season. My whole point is that I don't see either of them being remarkably accurate QBs (Pryor has more tools, though, and can certainly get to being an accurate QB), and that may limit their team's ceilings in the future. Could Pryor still lead this team to a MNC and have a ~60% completion %? Sure. But looking back at recent MNCs, a common theme is that they tend to have QBs with high completion percentage (outside of LSU last year and OSU with Krenzel, who were sub 64% passers but whose teams relied quite heavily on defense to win games). Heck, maybe that's all OSU needs - a guy to keep the chains moving with runs and a dominant D.