OT: State house bill to eliminate MI ticket scalping law
I read in the News (LINK) this morning that a State Rep from Saginaw has introduced a bill to end the anti-scalping law in Michigan, which is an issue I have a strong opinion about (as a consumer). The apparent rationale being, it prevents consumers from recouping the total price they paid for tickets they can't use, it leads to unnecessary harrassment of sellers by law enforcement, and private ticket transactions should not be exempt from the forces of the free market.
I find these reasons to be disingenous and short-sighted, as nothing irks me more (when it comes to buying tickets) than brokers who buy large blocks of tickets only to resell them at a higher cost, for an easy profit on the backs of the general public. I read several articles before the Super Bowl about the shady practices of brokers, including how the average fan can effectively no longer attend the Super Bowl (at least not at a reasonable price, and by reasonable, I mean <$1000 per ticket).
Refusing to play the scalping game is why I watched the 1998 ice hockey national championship game from the TGI Friday's next to the Fleet Center, instead of in the venue, after traveling 8 hours from DC to attend. That, and because I was relatively broke at the time. Nevertheless, I've done my time on the front lines of the ticket scalping battle; I have the equivalent of an anti-scalping Purple Heart.
/rant
I'll admit, in advance, that I have no prepared counterargument to the question, "but why should StubHub be considered legal, if tickets can be sold above face value?" I would only say that StubHub isn't a broker or reseller of tickets, but a service to bring buyers and sellers together. StubHub has no say in the price of a ticket, but one could argue they're condoning or complicit in an otherwise illegal transaction (depending on State law).
While this is arguably OT, I suspect the MGoCommunity has an opinion worth hearing on this topic, given 1) many of us are avid event-goers, and 2) our collective experience with rising event ticket prices and other ticket-related expenses (cough, PSDs) since the 90s.
(As an aside, I was under the impression that University employees aren't allowed to use their University affiliation to support a political issue or campaign, but perhaps the quoted professor from UM-Flint was simply consulted for his opinion, as opposed to voicing his support through a proponent of the bill.)
March 13th, 2015 at 11:34 AM ^
March 13th, 2015 at 11:36 AM ^
who are you to tell me who I can sell it to and for how much?
March 13th, 2015 at 11:38 AM ^
BINGO
I am totally with you, Mad Hatter. I have never sold nor bought scalped tickets, but do believe there should not be a law against it.
March 13th, 2015 at 11:47 AM ^
Yeah.
This is one of those common sense tests that our government clearly does not pass.
March 13th, 2015 at 11:37 AM ^
I don't see anything wrong with scalping tickets. There is no reason for a law to outlaw it.
March 13th, 2015 at 11:43 AM ^
You aren't going to get a lot of sympthy from me on the bill. I'm very pro scalper...or should I say pro ticket "ressale." Supply, meet demand...and I've gotten cheaper than face value tickets for several things.
March 13th, 2015 at 11:43 AM ^
is around 1,000 anyways (for the cheap seats) so the average fan is already priced out
I realize that wasn't the point of your post, but just an FYI
March 13th, 2015 at 12:07 PM ^
+1 to you for waiting like 5 years to post that.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:28 PM ^
sad truth is my work finally unblocked the signin page
March 13th, 2015 at 11:44 AM ^
I find these reasons to be disingenous and short-sighted, as nothing irks me more (when it comes to buying tickets) than brokers who buy large blocks of tickets only to resell them at a higher cost, for an easy profit on the backs of the general public. I read several articles before the Super Bowl about the shady practices of brokers, including how the average fan can effectively no longer attend the Super Bowl (at least not at a reasonable price, and by reasonable, I mean <$1000 per ticket).
I have two questions here. First, how is what you're describing different than any other type of speculation? Second, why should an average fan have an expectation of affording Super Bowl tickets?
March 13th, 2015 at 11:51 AM ^
I would consider it the responsibility of the sports team to mitigate this. They could do so by charging a premium for people who buy more than 10 tickets, or they could simply deny people from buying more than a set number.
I realize that sports franchises don't benefit in the short term by limiting bulk ticket sales, but I think they would hopefully see the long term rammifications of pricing out an entire class of fans. I mean, we were (are) kind of a case study for that.
March 13th, 2015 at 11:57 AM ^
They could do a better job of setting the price. Tickets going for above or below face should tend to show that the price wasn't set optimally in the first place.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:16 PM ^
I hate the online brokers that can instantaneously buy up huge swaths of the stadium. Would definitely be in favor of a transaction cap of some kind for them. Hasn't ever burned me on a sporting event before but I've been unable to get concert tickets before simply because they were all purchased so quickly.
Guy outside the stadium I have no problem with. Have gotten good deals a few times from them particularly at baseball games.
March 13th, 2015 at 11:45 AM ^
It's really no different than when people bought PS2's when they came out and sold them for double or triple face value. Unless you're going after those people, I don't think you can go after scalpers. Still, I when I see tix for Frozen on Ice (not the Frozen Four) going for more than face value, it tells me things are out of hand.
March 13th, 2015 at 11:50 AM ^
Scalping pretty much revolved around sporting events and grown up concerts. Now it seems like everything has an aftermarket price if you're not online right when something goes on sale. It is what it is. But when people are trying to put on cheap, affordable concerts for middle class or even lower class people, like Kid Rock, it sucks that they cannot do that.
When Michigan played FSU and Deion Sanders, there were a ton of FSU fans out there and they refused to pay more than maybe $5 above face. By gametime, they drove the price down. I sat on the 20 for face.
If nobody pays exorbitant prices for tickets, the scalpers can't afford to scalp.
How do you coordinate waiting for lower prices? You just drove eight hours to see a game and you aren't sure as to whether you are sitting at a bar in A2 or in the Big House? You've got more fortitude than I do...I always feel anxious until I have a ticket in hand.
A coordinated effort to lower ticket prices might also raise collusion/antitrust issues, not that the street vendors are going to be bringing their high price attorneys to monitor ticket sales at a game.
March 13th, 2015 at 11:46 AM ^
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March 13th, 2015 at 11:48 AM ^
There is absolutely nothing wrong with scalping tickets. What is the difference between a company buying a product from a supplier and then marking up the retail price for consumers?
March 13th, 2015 at 12:20 PM ^
If you, the company, buy a widget from a supplier and mark it up, the consumer can go to another retailer for the product. That's how the market corrects over-priced goods and services. I'm not going to buy it at $100 from you if I can get the same thing for $50 from someone else.
Tickets, on the other hand, don't work that way. There's only one true "seller," that being Ticketmaster, Live Nation, or equivalent (U-M), or the venue. Any other market is inherently secondary.
Furthermore, there's a fixed number of tickets to an event, and the event is a one-time occurrence. It's not like being priced out of a new PS3 (by a "reseller"), and choosing to wait to get one later, after more are produced, possibly from a different retailer, and likely at a more reasonable price.
Actually for a lot of games, tickets do work that way. A friend of mine went to the Sugar Bowl after the the 2011 season. He didn't want to pay face value, so he ignored the ticket office's price and bought from a scalper on game day for well below face. For many Michigan home games - especially in the last two years - you could easily do the same.
When a game doesn't sell out, scalpers often offer you a better deal than the primary market does. Only when a game sells out do they have a chance at a profit - and even then, if you're willing to wait until literally the last minute before kickoff, you can usually haggle your way to a good deal.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:41 PM ^
...my StubHub purchases aren't funding ISIS?
March 13th, 2015 at 11:54 AM ^
March 13th, 2015 at 12:02 PM ^
For whatever reason (means, contract, opportunity, etc.), brokers have more access or ability to get tickets, faster than the general public and in greater quantity. Maybe it's because they employ X number of employees who sit on Ticketmaster at 10 AM and all purchase the maximum allotment of tickets to an event, and because they have the financial means to buy hundreds of tickets in that manner (whereas I do not). I have no idea. Nevertheless, they end up with a large number of tickets, which they turn around and markup for immediate profit. I'm surprised so many people have no problem with this (as consumers), but that's why I asked for opinions, to calibrate my own.
Having said that, rather than "if it is not illegal for them why should it be for me," I would say "if it is illegal for me and in the best interest of the consumer to pay what they venue/artist/team is asking, why should they be allowed to do it?"
March 13th, 2015 at 12:09 PM ^
what you're suggesting is that there is collusion between the original seller and ticket brokers allowing the brokers to have access that the general public does not.
If you want to make that illegal, fine, although I would doubt that such a law would stand up to a court challenge.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:28 PM ^
I never suggested collusion. In fact, I admitted I don't know why brokers have more access to tickets, and I suggested some possible reasons.
(In fairness, it was maracle who suggested the existence of an agreement between the venue and brokers. I have no idea if this is true or not.)
I would, in fact, be somewhat satisfied if the law applied only to brokers (i.e., businesses who make money solely on the markup of tickets sold by the venue/promoter, inhibiting the financial accessibility of fans to an event).
March 13th, 2015 at 12:40 PM ^
I think such a law would have a great chance of standing up to a court challenge. Discriminating among your customers is sometimes permissible, but tends to be very heavily scrutinized. Colluding with certain customers with the result that the price goes up for other customers has antitrust written all over it.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:53 PM ^
Stubhub is not the one buying up all the tickets from ticketmaster. If you're mad at anyone it should be ticketmaster.
Where, in any of my posts on this topic (much less, the one you're responding to), did I blame StubHub?
This is a reply to the comment about stubhub, not you
March 13th, 2015 at 11:58 AM ^
March 13th, 2015 at 12:10 PM ^
It has for me, at least for sporting events. Now, I live in Ohio, but if I lived closer to Ann Arbor, I'd like to go to one game per year, but the cost of traveling along with the costs of the tickets, food, etc. is just not worth it anymore. I have a home theatre, so I'm fine with that.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:07 PM ^
Refusing to play the scalping game is why I watched the 1998 ice hockey national championship game from the TGI Friday's next to the Fleet Center, instead of in the venue, after traveling 8 hours from DC to attend.
Wait, this is a rant against scalping? Scalping would have given you a chance to attend the game.
I'm in favor of legal scalping simply because it gives fans more opportunities to go to the games. We can't all buy tickets the moment they go on sale. And really, it's ridiculous that I'm breaking the law if I pay someone for tickets he can't use.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:10 PM ^
The very definition of scalping is selling a ticket to an event at a higher price than the official one.
I have absolutely no problem with someone reselling a ticket they can't use; certainly not up to the documented cost of the ticket (including any associated taxes and fees). This is exactly what they do at Camden Yards in Baltimore, where buyers and sellers can get together within the confines of the stadium and negotiate a price, up to the full price of the ticket.
I could also justify an individual asking for what they paid, even if it exceeds the full price of the ticket. To be honest, I could even justify an individual asking for a higher price, based on supply and demand for the event. What I really don't like is a company (or individual) making money solely on the premise of marking up tickets, and making it harder for fans to attend the event. That's dishonest to me.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:14 PM ^
What does "documented cost" mean?
March 13th, 2015 at 12:32 PM ^
That was my own term. Intended to include face value, taxes, and fees, as suggested in the article:
"A fan recently bought two Red Wings tickets on a National Hockey League website at $40 each, plus a $10 surcharge and $4.95 for handling, Teeter said. Unable to attend, the buyer discovered each ticket had a $27 face value so they legally could be resold for just $54, not the $94.95 they cost, she said.
Granted, her situation was different, because she paid $40 (plus fees) for a ticket that faced $27 (plus fees). She should at least be able to sell them for what they truly cost, or even what she paid.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:22 PM ^
I don't quite get why you went to such expense to go to the 1998 Frozen Four if you had no intention of scalping. How did you expect to attend?
I've never understood the moral opposition to making a profit by selling a ticket. Our economy is based on selling things for profits. If I buy a ticket, it's my property. I should be able to do what I want with it. If I can sell my old junk at a garage sale for whatever I want, why can't I sell a ticket for a price of my choosing?
I can understand being upset with brokers buying blocks of tickets, but that's a separate issue. That's up to the venues themselves and how they regulate the distribution of tickets. Regardless, I don't begruge someone for making a living off scalping. They still are giving the customer a second chance at buying tickets after the initial window of opportunity closes.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:43 PM ^
And everyone knows the Frozen Four final is one of the easiest street ticket buys on earth. All you have to do is stand outside the arena after either of the semifinals or make the rounds of the bars near the arenas after the game and find a ticket from a losing-team fan looking to cut out of town. They'll practically give you the ticket. If you're waltzing up the day of the game, you're doing it wrong.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:57 PM ^
last time in Indy (Butler vs Duke) I was able to pick up 8 tickets various locations for $25 per ticket. Awwww those sad Spartan fans ..... HAHAHAHAHA.
Go Blue!
I actually never said I had no intention of succumbing to a scalper's ransom. I understood that buying a ticket to the NC game against BC was going to cost more than face value. But maybe there were financial constraints in my life at that time, as a struggling graduate? Maybe I was hopeful of finding a reasonably overpriced ticket? Everyone has their reasons for the decisions they make, and I don't regret it.
Again, I'm not necessarily arguing that an individual shouldn't be allowed to request a price that reflects supply and demand, although I admit it's a slippery slope. I guess I'm arguing about making a profession of fleecing people (as a company or individual), and making it more difficult for fans to attend (at the price that was established by the venue).
You, as a fan, may choose to sell your ND ticket for a markup. Okay. But as a fan, did you buy your season tickets solely to make money by reselling them? Probably not.
I guess I just don't get your beef here. You keep digging in, and it doesn't make any sense.
is with people and entities trying to justify their fleecing of consumers. But I can accept that my opinion is in the minority.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:28 PM ^
Do you like Uber? All they are is an insurance scam. Drivers only have to have personal auto insurance not commercial insurance coverage. If there is a way to make money in America someone will do it. Why should it matter if that someone is an "individual" or a company. In a fixed supply market like sports tickets it is demand that drives price. Maybe it is harder for you to attend the event because many others want to attend. When nobody wants to go tickets are dirt cheap. I couldn't give away my pair of tickets to the Maryland game last season.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:31 PM ^
That's the problem to me at least. I really wanted to go to the U2 show in Lansing when they played there in 2011. Skipped my marketing class to be ready for the 10AM onsale (I know, living on the edge). I hit refresh as soon as the clock changed to 10AM to be able to buy...and what do you know, I couldn't get into the presale despite a damn fast internet connection. Tried it with my roommate's computer as well. Turned out to be a blessing in disguise since I was in DC that summer anyways and couldn't go to the show, but at the time I was mad as hell. That's absolutely the fault of the brokers who sell off the tickets to bots who then flip for ten times the price.
This time around with the U2 tour they actually restricted who can buy tickets by capping a number you could put on one credit card and even more than one card with the same billing address. I'd like to see more vendors conscious of this especially when putting on an even they know has a good chance of selling out: this doesn't really apply to the Tigers, Wings or Pistons regular season because they play so often, the supply is there, basic economics. But with something like Michigan football where there are 6-7 games for the whole year, it is frustrating to see gobs of tickets unavailable.
March 13th, 2015 at 12:24 PM ^
about tickets I'll add my $.02.
I think internet sales have caused most of the issues being discussed in this thread. When I was in HS we used to sleep outside Repeat the Beat all night waiting for concert tickets to go on sale. And there was none of this wristband shit either. First in line got their tickets first.
Those were fun nights. Smoke a little weed, mess around with your (or someone else's) girlfriend in a sleeping bag, sleep under the stars.
And your new fangled internets