OT: Saban brings up an interesting point on up-tempo teams
So we've obviously talked a lot about up tempo versus slower teams and in an espn article saban has the following quote.
"The thing I wonder about is that if you play offense like that, then that's how you practice. You have to practice like that, so how do you really ever coach defensive players? If a guy doesn't play the right technique, you're going up and telling him and showing him how to play that block or whatever.
"But, hell, they're running another play."
Obviously what is highlighted is one of the benefits but it does make it more difficult to teach defensive technique and practice offense the way you want to run it. Just thought it was interesting to consider.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:31 PM ^
Sorry forgot to include link: http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/9730914/coach-nick-saban-rule-tempo-offense-alabama-crimson-tide
Article is about alabama considering an up tempo pace to jumpstart its offense.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:37 PM ^
September 27th, 2013 at 3:07 PM ^
September 27th, 2013 at 2:40 PM ^
Patriots use up tempo out of a pro style. Up tempo can be run without running a complete spread. We could run a no huddle now with the current offense while mixing in some read option. This is the route saban will likely go and he will find a mobile QB.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:51 PM ^
I wasn't talking spread versus not, a lot of people want us to go no huddle because we can get calls from the line and such (I think its a bad idea, but mostly because I think Gardner is the sort of player that can get going to fast and huddles can help him slow down) but this is about how just going fast can be detrimental.
September 27th, 2013 at 4:52 PM ^
Not to be a dick, but did you read the article or the OPs comment. He was discussing how you can practice defense when you have this type of offense, not debating pro vs. spread as a general philosophy. Also, Patriots are a pro team...Saban is discussing teaching college kids proper technique and fundamentals...spread offense makes this harder as per time available to dedicate to defensive players. Pro teams are well, professionals and can practice all day and night, no time restrictions. Further, players at that level are refining their craft/technique, not learning it from the level of a college player.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:40 PM ^
Would really love to hear Oregon DC Nick Allioti's perspective on this.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:42 PM ^
Oregon seems to be doing just fine with it.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/feidef2012
Need advanced stats here because their offense is so distorting. I've read that UO practices are just go go go rep rep rep and they do the coaching in film review afterwards.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:53 PM ^
Yeah, admittedly I don't watch oregon a lot but always playing with a lead probably makes defense a little easier, and I can't remember any games that oregons offense has faultered that they have won(obviously not a large sample size since their offense rarely falters).
September 27th, 2013 at 3:06 PM ^
I am going from memory here, so don't quote me, but I think that for the past few years anyway, Oregon's defense has been about second-quartile in Division I, or slighlty above average when it comes to average yards allowed per game. Aliotti works out of a base 3-4 as Saban does, I believe - SmartFootball had a few pieces back in the day on defending Oregon's spread out of the 3-4, as I recall. If I can find them, I will post them.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:09 PM ^
September 27th, 2013 at 3:27 PM ^
Sort of the opposite of what DFW describes in IJ, no?
September 27th, 2013 at 3:31 PM ^
That would require a couple of things:
1) Experienced players who know the technique basics.
2) Smarter players who can take delayed coaching and then apply it the next day in practice.
Right now, Michigan doesn't have the former. Too many young guys are still playing.
I would still love a regular tempo, no-huddle offense. You could right a long post about the difference between the spread offense, no-huddle offense, and high tempo offense in the offseason. I feel like too many people think they're the same thing. Probably because teams that consistently employ the first tend to employ the other two at a higher level than the general population.
September 27th, 2013 at 8:39 PM ^
I think the first point is what holds back lots of teams. To run such a quick offense or defense, you need to know that the guys out there "get" what you are doing and can adapt with minimal oversight. It works if everyone is on the same page and breakdowns are held to a minimum, but obviously that isn't always the case.
I think up-tempo is something any team should have in its back pocket, and no-huddle obviously works to lock in a defense to a smaller set of counter-plays. But it is always a bit of a razor's edge when it comes to running it efficiently, and if it isn't humming along you can see offenses that absolutely sputter and die out there. I caught a bit of the WVU-Maryland game and while WVU loves to push the pace, they obviously have some issues in terms of talent of familiarity and it is causing them to look pretty horrible. And so my concern would be something like we saw a bit last week, where Devin is out of sync and he's still not huddling and the team struggles to get in proper alignment. But if the players are in place, I do hope that Borges calls the game with an eye on pressing the defense.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:39 PM ^
in the last few years. Even with a loss of key defensive players to NFL draft like Dion Jordan, the defense have gotten better. It's a matter of knowing the scheme and having the experience from both starters and backup players to run the scheme effectively. The fact that Oregon gets off to a big lead that they were able to give backup players meaningful experience that it's like they don't miss a beat.
Advanced stats supports that it is possible to have an uptempo offense with great defense. RR's last year at WVU has top 10 offense and top 10 defense based on advanced stats. Chip Kelly also had top 10 offense and top 10 defense last year as well.
September 27th, 2013 at 4:45 PM ^
Oregon came pretty damn close and so did WVU.
September 27th, 2013 at 4:47 PM ^
Using a national title as the barometer for what makes a good football team is useless. Particularly because there are two serious factors that are completely outside a team's control: conference perspectives and random factors that influence particular games.
If a team has one unlucky game, they're usually out of the national title conversation, unless they're in the SEC. Oregon losing late in the year instead of early is enough to make sure that they dont' got to the national championship game. Ditto RR's WVU team.
September 27th, 2013 at 7:49 PM ^
It isn't like we've won any either. Michigan has one split national title in the last 60+ years (under a system that was much easier than the current one, playing Wazzu was not at all like playing Nebraska in a title game). Ohio State has one national title in the last 40+ years.
In 4 years at Oregon, Chip Kelly won 2 major bowl games (Rose and Fiesta) and played for a national title (losing on a last second field goal to undefeated national champs Auburn). In 21 years at Michigan, Bo Schembechler won 3 major bowl games (Rose twice, Fiesta once) and sort of played for a national title once (we were undefeated but still ranked #3 in 1971, before losing on a last second field goal to a 3-loss Stanford team in the Rose Bowl).
Acting like our program has been above people in some mythical national elite at any point in the modern era is just nonsense.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:42 PM ^
such an accurate description of how our defense looked under Rodriguez. Like its only purpose was to put token pressure on our practice offense.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:43 PM ^
at WVU.....
September 27th, 2013 at 4:39 PM ^
He also managed to lose to a crappy pitt team when his offense stalled out to miss a shot at the national championship game. Never trust anything from the big east until proven otherwise, that crappy uconn team that put up 10 points on our terrible defense in 2010 won the big east.
September 27th, 2013 at 7:54 PM ^
Sounds like somebody needs to do a research paper on "The Big Ten and Michigan football since 1950"
September 28th, 2013 at 1:01 AM ^
If you turn the ball over 6 times, chances are that you will lose the game. Pat White and Steve Slaton was hurt. If both are healty, WVU are in the NC without a doubt.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:44 PM ^
While I agree with Saban to a degree, if you have depth, in practice you can pull those guys out and throw someone in. Now, that takes a lot more coordination in practice and it disrupts some other things, but it's one way to teach.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:50 PM ^
i can't answer Nick's question...but maybe he should ask the Oregon defensive coordinator...that team is playing stellar defense speed and technique wise along with the fastest tempo in college football. I'm a big proponent of manball, but Oregon seems to have finally found the balance of an elite defense paired with extreme up tempo and spread on offense. Leading to outright blowouts game-in, game-out.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:52 PM ^
i swear i didn't read your post Brian...ha
September 27th, 2013 at 2:56 PM ^
I don't want to be rude because we haven't played a ton of great teams, but has oregon played any high powered offenses this year yet? I wouldn't jump to any conclusions quite yet.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:10 PM ^
Tennessee I feel is a solid offense that has run into 2 straight fantastic defenses...and I know UVA beat BYU in their first game...i have no idea how many points they scored, but they beat them. But when I wathced Oregon's defense, they were clearly playing with another eschelon of speed.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:30 PM ^
Byu lost to utah 20-13, uva put up 19 on them, I don't think their offense is anything above average, and tennessee might be solid and run into good defenses but we obviously have no idea yet since there have been so few games. It's possible the defense is good but I don't think this year proves it.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:55 PM ^
That's what scout teams are for. You don't have to have your offense always be the practice dummies for the defense, and vise versa. You can have your D practice against up-tempo and start and stop as you please without impacting your O.
It's no secret that Saban would like to slow down up tempo teams, via slow Ref ball-spotting, rule changes to "protect" against injuries, fear-and-doubt about practice quality . . . whatever he can find.
I don't see why he is going to all the trouble. He's Nick Saban. Of mighty Alabama of the mighty SEC. He should just declare a proclamation: "I Nick Saban hereby declare that no team may run an up tempo offense. At least against me." Then ESPN will enforce it for him.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:58 PM ^
It's difficult to practice against scout teams because they aren't as good, if your star defensive tackle can dominate your freshman center technique is hard to force, its easier to show how it works when you are going up against people of equal talent. Teams run 1's vs 1's for a reason and its the most helpful part of a practice.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:02 PM ^
Yeah, I know. I was being factious.
I don't think Saban is all that concerned with not being able to parctice well. I just think this is another of his media smoke screens to campaign against the hurry up offense.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:09 PM ^
I mean its in an article talking about how alabama might go up tempo so yes while he does clearly dislike it, I think this was more a legitimate reason why he is wary of running one himself and a point I found interesting.
September 27th, 2013 at 2:54 PM ^
I'd just be like "Yo, run the next one against air, I'm coaching my guys."
September 27th, 2013 at 2:59 PM ^
I specifically remember hearing an interview of Oregon DC Nick Allotti who said something to the effect of, this fact annoys him too.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:16 PM ^
His comment in the article explains the enigma of Northwestern 54, Michigan 51 from 2000.
13 years later.
Hurry up spread and shred. No defense. Terrifying
BTW, Saban is a dead wringer for Billy Bob Thornton
September 27th, 2013 at 3:53 PM ^
I come here to kill you tonight. mmmhhmmm.
September 27th, 2013 at 6:34 PM ^
Why the Michigan defense continued to line up and let Northwestern audible into the perfect play EVERY DAMN DOWN just confounds me.
Why they hell didn't we just come out in some base D on every play, wait for Northwestern to start audibiling, and then shift into our ACTUAL defense? Seemed like an obviously solution to me. If they had snapped the ball without audibiling the base D would have been fine, and if they audible, at least they would have been audibiliing against whatever unknown defensive set we would have been moving into instead of against a known defense.
I was praying that the UM coaching staff would come up with this at halftime, but maybe that would have been too much to implement in 15 minutes.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:21 PM ^
At some point, does the rules committee need to tinker with the rules to give defenses more help? I'm starting to get tired of all the 45-38 games. Offenses seem to have a pretty clear edge on defenses across the country. Perhaps we should ask whether it's fair to the defense in the first place that the offense can rush to the line and snap it with 25 on the playclock (outside of last-minute situations where time requires it).
September 27th, 2013 at 3:27 PM ^
I don't want to force slow down the game, but they could stop calling absurd pass interference calls, stop making new rules to protect the qb and other rule changes that have given the offense an edge regardless of play style.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:42 PM ^
But those are judgment calls, and not all officials call them with the same frequency. (Also, I don't think we want to eliminate rules protecting player safety.) If you change the actual rules, you guarantee far-reaching effects. This would not be unprecedented. Twenty years ago, the NCAA added the "too many men in the huddle" rule to stop teams (like Gary Moeller's Michigan) from having 15 guys in the huddle and then pulling four at the last minute.
I think there is reason to change the rules. They were written under the general assumption that both the offense and defense would have sufficient time to substitute players between plays, and that's often no longer the case. When a defense can't substitute without having its players fake injuries, that's a sign that we may need to revisit the rules.
September 28th, 2013 at 1:02 PM ^
Or defenses can learn to adapt, just like they always have. Offenses always evolve first, since they have the ball and defenses are reacting to it. Defensive coordinators eventually will figure out how to keep athletic defenders on the field more. I think they would also do better if they tried to play their defensive scheme, not try to constantly substitute to match an offensive formation. There are enough players and coaches that a substitute should be ready to enter as soon as the play is over.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:32 PM ^
and minuses. While I never like getting dinged, and am a person who loves tangential and out-of-the-box thinking myself--which often draws negs--I miss being able to just plus someone when they offer a good insight or clarification.
September 27th, 2013 at 3:49 PM ^
Nicky is just mad that he can't stop JFF
September 27th, 2013 at 4:21 PM ^
September 27th, 2013 at 4:23 PM ^
Saban already has a world-class player procurement system run by Alabama boosters, but that isn't enough. Now he wants to abolish anything that digs into his gross personnel advantage. What a slimeball.
September 27th, 2013 at 4:27 PM ^
While I agree to a certain extent, this can also be solved in the film room. I know there are NFL and college coaches that would rather let the players just play during "team" time and then will coach them up on mistakes in the film room.
September 27th, 2013 at 4:34 PM ^
I think most of the time, it's not a huge issue in college. You can prepare for a specific offense but in the end, talent, crazy depth and execution tend to override that and Oregon's D is proof. They have been recruiting like mad and their DC is pretty good.
However, the biggest weakness with that offense is that it doesnt really do the defense any favors and by that, I mostly mean killing the clock in a close game and letting the defense take more that a 1 or 2 minute break. You are seeing that with the Eagles right now. They have some defensive talent but not much depth, and that cost them in the Chargers game when they were outgained in Time of Possession by 20 minutes.
September 27th, 2013 at 4:47 PM ^
So then how does Saban's team get used to playing against high tempo teams? If they stop for coaching after every play, how does the offense practice their tempo, even if it's a slow one? How do guys get used to playing mulitiple consecutive downs and not getting gassed?
Seems to me that most teams spend some time in 1s v. 1s doing "game simulation" and some time doing "let's run a play, stop and coach, and run it again till it works". Those are two things that are both valuable and doing only one is going to be a detriment.
Hell, we even did that in marching band in high school - we'd run the whole show, come hell or high water, then we'd go back and do bits and pieces repeatedly until things started working. I think the same priciple applies - you have to get the fundamentals right, but if you never practice "game day", you'll be bad at it.