OT- Ross and other MBA programs

Best admissions advice I ever heard:  

Schools don't want diverse students, they want diverse classes.

They love being able to say they have students from all regions of the country and the world, and from all walks of life.

My wife went to Duke, a very competitive school, so we attended a "how to get your kids into Duke" session given by the Duke admissions officers on an alumni weekend.  

They pretty much told us that if you really want your kids to get into Duke, move to Montana.

Because Montana was the missing piece in their prized portfolio of places that Duke students represented.  You still have to have good enough grades to show that you can do the work, but the last thing they were looking for was yet another 4.0 Valedictorian from the East Coast that plays the violin.  They craved a rancher's kid from the backwoods of Montana who knows how to lasso a horse.  

When I applied to the Michigan MBA school, I was very concerned and intimidated by my small-time non-corporate, non-consulting background.  I worked for a tiny "start up" (if you could even call it that) in an Appalachian coal mining town that did industrial cleaning and maintenance services.  I worked hard to get good grades, but there was nothing I thought was elite B-School impressive about my background beyond that.

I did not know it at the time, but I got in because of my background, not in spite of it.  I tried to hide it as best as I could back at the time, but fortunately I was not that successful.  They loved the rough around the edges, just-make-it-work-with-duct-tape-and-wire perspective that my background brought to a class full of students from Grosse Pointe who went to an Ivy undergrad.

Had I known then what I know now, I would have played up the hell out of my background.

If you are not the perfect pre-packaged candidate for Ross, find something unique you have to offer (or obtain something unique) that they would love to add to their "diversified portfolio" of students.

 

While it may not be a popular choice around here and is obviously not as highly ranked as Ross or some of the other top tier MBA programs that have been mentioned, I am about to graduate from the MSU MBA Program (Broad) in May and have had nothing but great experiences over my two years in the program.  

I graduated from UofM with a degree in Sport Management in 2011 and worked in a BigTen 10 athletic department for two years before I decided I wanted change things up in my career.  I scored a 680 on the GMAT and applied to Ross, Iowa, Minnesota, and MSU.  I was accepted by all except Ross which was a bummer at the time.  I am a native Michigander so the tuition at MSU was pretty manageable and if you apply for a GA (which I did), you're almost guaranteed to receive one.  

While Broad isn't as highly ranked as Ross or other top tier programs, it is one of the fastest rising programs in the US, actually.  It is considered by most to be a top 3 supply chain management program (which I studied) while some consider it to be tops in the country.  The program is currently ranked somewhere in the mid to lower 30s in the country but there is a huge push to make it a top 20 program within the coming years.  

I was fortunate to get an internship with a major computer company in Austin, TX this past summer and have spun that into a full time consulting position with one of the Big 4 that will start this summer.  Some of my classmates will be working for major companies including Johnson&Johnson, Mars, Ford, McKinsey, and Intel.  So, while the program is not as highly ranked as others, there is definitely still the opportunity to work for a major company upon graduation.  

Finally, while I am a wolverine until I die and get poked fun of on a daily basis, no one in the program rags on me too hard for wearing my Michigan backpack on campus or being on MGoBlog most of the day.  I have about 6 or 7 UofM alums in the program with me so we tend to stick together at sporting events.  The last thing I will tell you about the program is that it is very small compared to others.  I will graduate in a class of 69 in May which is extremely small compared to the programs with 300-500+.  I enjoyed the small size of our program because I was able to make much strongerconnections and relationships with my classmates and while my network may not be as large, it is extremely strong.  

Good luck with your decision!  I hope you are able to get into Ross, but if you can't just know that there are other great programs out there.

Disclosure: Did a dual MBA/Masters degree at Michigan. Was on the admissions committee there and worked at a Top 3 consultancy post-graduation.

I give this (controversial) piece of advice to anyone considering Ross, and Ross alone: don't do it. But that's my own bias creeping in, and I'll explain why:

There are realistically only three standalone business programs now that offer substantial network value combined with a highly commoditized degree that the MBA has become: Harvard, Stanford, and Wharton. These three schools allow remarkable access to a bevy of opportunities regardless of geography or industry.

If you want to stay in the midwest and work in marketing or consulting, Ross is unequivocally one of your best options. Northwestern is neck-and neck. However, journey outside that area (especially the coasts) and you'll find yourself shocked at how exceptional the Stanford/Harvard/Wharton networks are in comparison. I'd even suggest that Northwestern, Duke, Yale etc. will carry far more beneficial LTV to you if you choose to go elsewhere. 

I'm in the technology industry in San Francisco now - tons of Harvard and Stanford grads are getting jobs in tech that Ross MBAs can't even unfortunately scratch...unless you have the attached brand of a prominent consultancy or i-bank or Google/Facebook attached.

That said, if you're still set on Michigan: get a second degree. Show an element of particular focus in a field outside of business. Your expertise and desire to focus will be a really strong factor for future employers. 

This is probably a contrarian view from many of my classmates, but I've taken a good look at where my Ross degree got me...basically, it got my foot in the door at a top consulting firm. From there, it was the firm itself, its network, and the effects therein that took over.

Happy to clarify further. Good luck!

 For my background I have both an undergrad degree in Engineering and MBA from UM. The Engineering degree was MUCH harder. My wife has a Wharton MBA. My first job out of B school was brand management at Kraft, which was the most desired marketing job back in the day. I then worked to hire MBAs from all over to join Kraft.

I had only Engineering experience, aced the math part of the GMAT, needed a prep class for the other parts, and had very average grades. I had some entrepreneural experience and played that up on my application which I think they liked. I had no experience in Finance and Accounting (and hate the latter to this date).

The post from JamesBondHerpes below is spot on. Life is tough and you have to call a spade a spade. Marketing at UM was first rate. When I hired marketing MBAs from the midwest, we had the best luck at UM and Northwestern. Every school has their niche which is easy to figure out.

If you aren't doing supply chain management, MSU is not that strong. Love their Package Engineering  and Study Abroad programs too. I just sat in on a BBA presentation at Broad as my daughter will be a freshman (at UM) this Fall  but looked at MSU honors. The people were nice, everything is much more customer friendly than UM, they are trying to move up in class, but neither of us were sold on the program quality (and I was REALLY hoping to be sold because there are some things about UM now that are not ideal).

A big problem with all Michigan schools is that they are too tied to the auto industry which is pretty primitive compared to other industries. Also lots of state schools have students who haven't "seen the world" much outside their region. This is why they are trying so hard for diversity. Business is global and rate of change is exponentially getting quicker. You have to be able to change and think outside the box to move ahead.

Getting back to you - Don't short change your long term goals for a short term setback. Getting more work experience and bumping up your GMATs even 20 points is worth it. Other have given good advice as to how to show them you are SINCERELY interested in UM in every aspect of your life.

Another good piece of advice given once you are in is to work like hell to get interviews that third term. I may have set a record for interviews that term . I'm talking 5 per week minimum. School was secondary. Flybacks were awesome. At first I really sucked at interviewing or didn't know what they wanted. (Also go to the receptions the night before and just observe at first - nothing worse than a big mouth MBA lol). Slowly I got better and then finally the first offer came. Then my confidence and composure totally changed. Soon I was getting mostly offers with only a few dings.  It's sort of like dating? Anyway not getting a dream job going to a top tier school would have been a failure - so don't discount ANY of the interview process and have no ego about trying to get better or asking for help.

Good luck and stay positive!

 

I'd say most of the comments are on-point, specifically:

- Get your GMAT up to, or as close to 700 as possible

I would recommend you wait until the 2016 entering class cycle.  One thing about Ross (and other top-ranked schools) is everything you do is evaluated in terms of your potential to be a high performing student, alum, and business professional.  Waiting until this late in the cycle with a low (outside middle 80%) GMAT doesn't show well in terms of planning and execution.  Focus on putting your best foot forward, no matter what schools to which you apply

If you can get the GMAT close to, or over 700, it opens up a number of top flight schools.  Others you might consider include Booth at UChicago, Kellogg at NU, or even out-of the-box Yale, or UCLA.  Those were my pool of applications/acceptances.  

Be sure to go visit the admission staff and profs in your target field of each school to which you apply.  I found it difficult to talk about why I wanted to attend a specific school in my apps, if I hadn't actually been on campus, met with admissions, profs, and students.  That makes a crucial difference in your applications and essays.  This may be especially helpful for you if you are fighting the tape some on academics and/or test scores.  Plus, most schools track who's been on campus, and how many times, as a way to gauge seriousness of commitment and effort.

If the very top level of school is out of reach academically or financially, don't fret, you'll find that you'll get out of Biz School what you put into it.  If you go somewhere else, put your all into it, and you'll be just fine.  Indiana and Mich State are two solid programs with friendly acceptance rates and GMATs in your current wheelhouse.

As for changing careers, that's the dirty little secret of graduate business school, well over 2/3rds of the full-time students are job-changers (at least in my class).  Engineers who hated being engineers, pre-med who couldn't stand blood or clinical, foreign language types with lots of overseas "work", but no high-value prospects, english majors that didn't want to teach, etc.  Not many were consultants or Wall Street types -- that's where they all wanted to go, but couldn't get there without the MBA.  

The one amaizing thing about Michigan was every one of my classmates could think: think fast, work fast, integrate disparate concepts, and seemingly remember everything.  It was a tremendously fast crowd intellectually.  Everybody could learn at a very high rate, no matter their undergrad degree or background.  

Don't fret about your work background or undergrad too much, just put together the best self evaluation, application(s) and recommendation letters you can.  Put your best foot forward and see what happens, you'll likely be pleasantly surprised.

Best of Luck

You want to go to the best school possible as long as it can get you into your career choice. I.e. banking, brand managment, tech, etc. And the best thing you can do to increase your odds is to wait a year so you can early enroll. Finally, contrary to the other poster's view, Ross is a great school for the networking post degree. Take a look at these Economist rankings. http://www.economist.com/whichmba/mba-rankings/alumni-network?fsrc=scn/…

.... what do you want to do and why do you think getting an MBA is part of a "career change?"

Also, "dream school" sounds a bit more like an undergrad thing.  And the fact that one of your parents went there is interesting but not really relevant to such a commitment of time and money (even if you do get in).

Graduate degrees (save probably Med School) is no guarantee of a job, let alone one you want in a career you find attractive.

This sounds more like a "running from" situation rather than a "going to" situation.  And from what I hear about Ross, it may be that an offer is a long shot.

Anyway, good luck.  Everyone I know who has an MBA (I run with an older crowd) toiled away in middle management for years.  Maybe Ross and others are changing this.  I know NO ONE who got a top-tier MBA (Michigan, Harvard, Stanford or Wharton) who started their own business or made it to the top of someone else's.

And yes, your mileage may vary, etc., but this is a college sports board and there you have it.

SDM

PS However, if you do get into Ross, Attack each day with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind.

 

 

Not much I can add outside what others have.  I am a Wharton grad and worked in admission while there... also helped my sister into HBS and my wife into Stanford.  For each of us the right school and luckily our top choices.  Here are my thoughts from what I've gained having gone through the admissions process 3 times (and b-school experience twice):

Like people said: do not apply round 3 unless you have a super interesting background.  Even then go for rounds 1 or 2. 

Figure out the why MBA/why now - not liking your job is not the right reason and admissions will be able to see through it.  

Figure out the right school given your career interest, where you want to live, the type of school environment, etc.  

During admissions a huge thing for me when I was assessing candidates was whether that person was someone I'd want to work with.  So don't come off as a conceited jerk.

GMAT is just one factor and it weights more or less depending on your background.  Its purpose is to show that you have the ability to deal with the course work.  But it is just one factor, because plenty of brilliant people don't put in the work (thus academic success can show willingness to work hard).  I've seen many people with 760 not get into W/S/H and others with 650 that have gotten into W/S/H.  Finally, there are people who are not as good at school/tests but brilliant in "real life", thus the reason why what you've done at work is the most important part.  How did you excel vs. your peers, and this is also where promotions and recommendation play a key role.  

Get a recommendation from someone that really knows you professionally.  

If there are weak spots in your application, address them head on.

For the top schools there is certainly a bit of luck involved in getting in given that there is a much larger pool of qualified candidates than spots.  

Good luck.  I can tell you b-school were the best two years of my life and that is saying a lot considering I loved my 4 years at UM.

Not entirely specific to this post, but the topic of where one got their bachelor's as a factor in grad school selectivity has been brought up in recent threads. Basically the typical debate of whether it's better to have a 3.8 from a fairly non-competitive college or a 3.4 from UM, Notre Dame, etc.

I've always thought heavily comparing GPA's of applicants can be a bit unfair. Students who, for example, worked 30+ hours/week, played a varsity sport, or majored in something particularly difficult are at a greater challenge to get the best possible grades. That said, I think the admissions tests, being the most objective way to compare applicants, should carry sizably more weight than GPA.

I'm admittedly biased though, primarily from my experience taking Calc 2 and a Physics class at another state (GLIAC) university. Not trying to offend anyone or knock other schools, but the amount of work I put in to get A's in those two courses would have very likely gotten me C's at UM.

Regardless, I was recently looking through the commencement guide from a few years ago and noticed the med students had their undergraduate institutions listed. Of the 150ish graduates, only 5 were from other public universities in the state (one from each of CMU, Wayne, MSU, M-Dearborn and LSSU). Around 8-9 had gone to the Hope, Alma type schools. By all accounts, most were from highly regarded universities like Stanford, Harvard and MIT, to name a few. 5 or so had previously attended BYU, which seemed kinda odd.

Although a large number of the medical students were indeed undergrads at Michigan, I personally was surprised by how few came from elsewhere in the state. I'm pretty sure the med school aims to bring in a sizable portion of MI residents, given they're typically less inclined to practice elsewhere later on. So based upon that notion, I just figured the numbers representative of local schools would be larger.

Of course, it's only one class from one program, and Michigan may be far from representative of selection processes used at other schools. But for soon-to-be college students also intent on grad school, maybe foregoing a prestigious/yet highly competitive university with the mindset of easily getting a nice GPA somewhere else isn't generally a better idea.

I wouldn't be surprised if some grad schools like to showcase elite institutions associated with admissions data on matriculants. IMO, that would cast a better image of a program even if it meant, hypothetically, the entering class had a mean GPA of 3.6 rather than a 3.8 and students from less renowned/eye-catching colleges.

It'd be interesting to hear any input from others that know a thing or two on this matter, whether it be specific to med/dentistry/pharm, law, business, or any type of master's/doctoral/PhD program.

Just some food for thought.