OT: Rampant and widespread sexual torture and abuse in Canadian Junior Hockey
TW: Rape, torture, homophobia
An article dropped today summarizing the rampant allegations of "hazing" going on in Canadian Junior Hockey that go far beyond what is acceptable human behavior. This is done with the open backing of many coaches/trainers/etc.
The article is in French but google will translate it for you pretty well. I would recommend caution before reading, because there is some genuinely despicable things here. Like think "CIA black site torture" levels of bad.
For those that don't know, the CHL includes the WHL, OHL (which has teams in Saginaw and Flint), and QMJHL. They are huge feeders into the NHL and college ranks.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:09 PM ^
I can unequivocally say, that was the most horrifying and disgusting piece I have ever read. At this point I can’t say anything else except anyone who perpetrated and/or allowed for these inhuman actions to occur deserve the electric chair.
I am honestly physically sick
February 13th, 2023 at 7:14 PM ^
The brutality of some of this is quite sadistic - the type of person you would have to be...
If these were unspoken secrets, I have to wonder why anyone would decide to play in these leagues in what is almost an equal pedastal to the NHL with College Hockey and have to believe this only swings things further towards NCAA.
February 14th, 2023 at 4:04 PM ^
You're kidding yourself if you think this isn't happening in college hockey too. It happens in pee wee, bantam, midget, the CHL leagues and yes, college hockey.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:10 PM ^
That’s fucking awful. Any adults who were present/aware of this shit should be die in prison, after the victims’ parents get an hour or two alone in a room with them
February 13th, 2023 at 6:10 PM ^
Sexual abuse will happen in male dominated hierarchical structures without proper oversight. Boy scouts, football teams, wrestling teams, churches, schools, etc. It's well past time there is more oversight because disgusting shit like this cannot continue because apparently structures like this cannot for the most part regulate themselves
February 13th, 2023 at 6:25 PM ^
I don't really like the usage of "alpha, beta, omega, ......" for classifying people and explaining how those people related to each other. (I'm not describing you, FWIW, as you didn't use those words).
BUT --- those classifications aren't complete nonsense. In junior hockey, you get a bunch of male teenagers, who are coming of age sexually and otherwise, and they have always up unto that point been the "alpha talent" in the hockey leagues they compete in. Now they enter an environment where they may not be the "alpha talent", where they're facing their toughest competition to date.
That environment --- will be particularly susceptible to a vicious hierarchical "sorting out." Won't always happen, but it's more likely to happen.
And hazing is one way in which things can be sorted out.
I don't know the solution. It's not an easy problem to solve.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:37 PM ^
adults that don’t allow sexual assault would be a start
it’s not nearly as hard to solve as you think
February 13th, 2023 at 7:39 PM ^
Sure, that's the solution.
But, let's see ----- the Catholic Church, junior hockey, boarding schools, Penn State's football program, prisons, Ohio State's wrestling program, New Mexico State's basketball program, et cetera, et cetera ----- this thing happens all the time (with NMSU basketball, they shut down their season just this past weekend).
I know, I'll get the downvotes, but your solution isn't easy to implement. It is not easy to grow a child into an adult who lives with integrity, has a strong moral code, and most importantly, has the courage to step up and do the right thing 100% of the time.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:39 PM ^
As a female, I don't really understand what you're saying. That dominant male athletes express their dominance over lesser athletes through violent sexual acts?
February 13th, 2023 at 7:47 PM ^
You're latching onto my usage of gender in my post, but I think that's really irrelevant.
Anyone who has been in corporate has likely seen this: "Dominant people occasionally expressing their dominance over others through acts of minimization." (getting people canned for no truly justified reason, spreading rumors about others, excluding them from projects, degrading them in meetings and not allowing them to voice their opinions, et cetera)
That's not a "violent sexual act", but it is minimization. Many humans (males and females) enjoy minimizing other humans (males and females).
I try my best not to do that myself --- but I do sometimes wonder if it's just the way we humans are coded.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:45 PM ^
I have to address gender here because we're talking specifically about rape. Women by and large don't rape or sexually torture people to show dominance. I also don't put those examples you cited in the same category as sexual violence. I think most people stop well short of wanting to physically harm or sexually humiliate an adversary. When you cross that line, you've moved into a real criminal pathology.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:52 PM ^
As one who has experienced a few things (having my balls forceably fondled by a male classmate when I was in 6th-7th grade, which in retrospect was "sexual assault" --- and once being chased out of a company and gleefully let go by a vindictive female VP) --- they didn't feel overly different.
Psychopaths both. There isn't much gender superiority when it comes to folks inappropriately expressing their dominance - no.
February 13th, 2023 at 10:05 PM ^
Really? I think history tells a different story.
February 13th, 2023 at 10:24 PM ^
Yes, really. I wouldn't have posted it if I didn't believe it.
I'm not a fan of tribalism of ANY sort --- that includes gender tribalism.
February 14th, 2023 at 9:58 AM ^
You are generalizing Wendy - I assume you are not a sociologist or criminologist because you would not have used such broad sweeping language. Women commit physical and sexual with the same alarming frequency. Search foreign object sorority hazing.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:28 PM ^
I did, and I didn't find much. I'd like to see the source of that statistic. According to the Department of Justice, 99% of the perpetrators of sexual violence are men.
February 13th, 2023 at 7:03 PM ^
Well, they turned out to be complete nonsense for wolves. And to the extent that "alpha" suggests that some people are just given to ugliness and domination. . . that's just over-simple, maybe pretty obviously. People don't continue to be shitty, or to get away with it, unless they are rewarded/tolerated. And then when these things get embedded in a culture and re-enacted. . . In short, helluva lot going on there. But certainly, very f'ing ugly.
February 13th, 2023 at 7:13 PM ^
There have been incidents of sexual violence perpetrated by men against other men (the cops in the Abner Louima case in NY, for example) where it seems to be about power, dominance, and punishment and those incidents, like the ones here, are literally beyond my comprehension. Same with sexual violence against women.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:04 PM ^
It's always about power, and dominance. Whatever tool one group could muster to continue keeping another group down, they would use it.
I have not read the piece, and I not going to. I can surmise from the reactions here that I don't want to look into that darkness.
Just remember that the perpetrator/enabler/"knowing-yet-looking-at-other-way" are living among us and we are interacting with them every day, without realizing what they are doing.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:42 PM ^
WTF are you talking about...this isn't "they made the freshman carry the bags" or "recruits take the last showers after the hot water ran out."
These are inhumane crimes. That's not boys will be boys hazing...thats assault, rape, and other unspeakably heinous acts of violence.
Miss me with this quasi human nature bullshit.
No. This is not a solution. Just like shooting up your school isn't a solution. You suggesting that's its complicated absolutely minimizes the fact that it's not. There is nothing complicated about not raping someone. There is nothing complicated about not shoving a hockey stick smothered in icy hot up someone's anus.
If you want to peddle that macho has to let itself out bullshit...use it to explain why UFC exists or why steroids are a problem in weightlight. Not this.
This is not normal. Stop making it out to be.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:57 PM ^
I never said hazing or criminal activity was the "solution." Come on now. No.
I did say junior hockey (a sport that, let's be honest, has disproportionately more upper-middle-class-and beyond players, that have been spoon-fed everything through their life, and have always been the best players at their level throughout their life ------ e.g., a bunch of kids who have always been privileged up to that point of their lives) is a particularly ripe environment for this to happen. Yes.
I agreed with (in another post) a solution --- the presence of strong adults who won't tolerate that nonsense and are courageous enough to do the right thing 100% of the time.
There isn't an over-abundance of those sort of people, though. I also don't see an easy path to getting an over-abundance of those sort of people.
February 14th, 2023 at 8:04 AM ^
Whatever man, the text is right there for everyone to read.
You want to try and classify these despicable CRIMES as "minimization" and compare them to things far less serious, that's on you.
You want to talk about the way humans are coded...as if this is normal and involuntary. Fuck you. It's not.
You want to highlight how this happens "all the time"...which only an idiot would fail to realize how that minimizes the issue. Like these are kids who got caught speeding, which happens all the time. Whatever. As soon as you use "all the time" you're immediately, even if unintentionally, suggesting a degree of *shrug emoji*...because it is "all the time."
And you want to write some grotesque bullshit about alphas coming of age...as if that matters or has anything to do with raping someone, man...that's just shitty. Do you realize how many alphas come of age every day? *THIS IS NOT NORMAL* and it is not a result of male alphas coming of age.
Hazing, at its core is about tradition and a weird form of team building and team bonding. Hazing at its core is bad because it isolates people and separates even when if there is an intention of coming together.
But assult is assault. You can call assault, "hazing" but it doesn't mean it's not assault. It's an excuse.
Just like assault can be baked under the guise of "tradition" or "culture" or "science." That doesn't actually mean anything other than an excuse to commit a crime.
The crap about sorting it out is garbage. You literally play a sport. Where that alpha nonsense sorts itself out in every practice and game. You don't need to dip a dick in warming cream to establish dominance. You do that because you're an asshole who is fucked in the head and needs to be behind bars with regular interactions with a mental health therapist.
Alpha sorting itself out is Mike Sainristil standing over all his teammates, cussing his ass off as he challenges every single one of them to "finish" what they started and go out and dominate. Everyone who saw that knew who the alpha was.
Fuck a team captain. Fuck a senior or upperclassmen designation. That was pure, "I am establishing that this is who we are and how we do things and you're going to go do it because I'm the alpha dog and what I say goes."
Seems like Sainristil sorted things out pretty easily, and that happens on teams around the world in all team sports. That's alphas. This hockey bullshit ain't nothing like that.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:19 PM ^
Hazing's not-too-distant cousin is, of course, "bullying" --- which is about exerting power, dominance, minimizing others and letting those others know that they matter less than you.
Re-read your post --- with you saying "fuck you" at me and you summarily dismissing my words and response right off of the top (no acknowledgment at all that you could have even possibly put words into my mouth) --- one could argue you're being a bully toward me.
Perhaps you'd say that I deserve to be treated that way, given I am "disgusting", which fair enough. But your response here simply isn't conducive to an actual conversation.
February 14th, 2023 at 9:24 AM ^
Did you change your post? B/c otherwise I don't see why you have 20 downvotes. All you wrote is that this type of behavior happens in male dominated (and not just male dominated) institutions. And b/c of this, we need to regulate them. No controversy in that statement at all. It's a fact. It's also a fact we need to do better at protecting youth in these systems and not pretend this doesn't happen
February 13th, 2023 at 6:11 PM ^
oh my god. i couldn't read it all.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:36 PM ^
I played in the SJHL and the GOJHL and though I never experienced anything like this, I have always heard rumors about stuff like this.
absolutely disgusting. i consider myself lucky
February 14th, 2023 at 11:08 AM ^
I’m unsure if this is culturally predominant in hockey in Canada as each team runs it’s own program and there are probably hundreds of tremendous leaders and fully accountable and caring coaches.
However, there are bad actors (look at the Sheldon Kennedy/Theoren Fleury narrative) and the higher you get in hockey the more power some coaches or others have. Whether it’s coach to player, player hazing, racism, sexual assault or other violence it’s not okay. It’s never okay.
The failure in so many team sports is the protectionism involved to keep things “in house”. The proverbial “red lock” to use Dantonio language. Hockey Canada with its history of cronyism, old boys network and dishonest conduct is facing this reckoning right now (google it, it’s bad). Until circling the wagons goes away though these people will continue to shelter one another.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:40 PM ^
What the fuck is going on in seemingly every structure of power that it seemingly always devolves into some sort of sexual assault?
February 13th, 2023 at 7:38 PM ^
Every structure of power that abuses power can ultimately lead to sexual abuse, because that is the ultimate show of power one individual can perpetrate against another. Sadly, people often get into positions of power because they lust for it vs actually being good at what they do.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:17 PM ^
I've just never had the thought of "you know what would help us bond? violating my teammate"
February 14th, 2023 at 12:01 PM ^
This is why I never joined a fraternity. A year of "bonding" to be accepted into the fraternity followed by a hand sticking out waiting for you to put a check in it.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:45 PM ^
Played juniors was drafted into OHL, I’ve hear some real bad horror stories, thank god I never had any problems and I openly look out for it now with younger generation.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:51 PM ^
This is down right disgusting and horrifying. Prayers, support, and love to the victims, and to hell to the abusers.
February 14th, 2023 at 11:42 AM ^
I put even more of the blame on the staff than I do on the players. I can't and won't make any excuses for the players. They're old enough to know better. I'd also be willing to bet those players committing the atrocities also were victims at an earlier point and may consider it "normal."
The staff members are the adults and authority figures.They are more than complicit in this; they are at least equally at fault. Players in sports tell stories about coaches helping them grow up to be solid men and women. Jim Harbaugh says that about Bo, for instance. For those coaches to violate that trust and that responsibility... it's hard to put that into words. They failed the abusers in allowing them to commit the abuse and probably allowed them to be victimized earlier. They failed the victims in not protecting them. They failed the families of these kids. They failed the hockey community and the human race as a whole. They can burn in hell as far as I'm concerned.
That article was hard to read but I'm also glad I read it, if that makes sense. It's good for us to be reminded that these things happen not just in hockey and it's up to all of us to stop it immediately if we see it happening. We impress that upon our own children what is right and wrong, and to recognize whether something happening to them is either right or wrong.
February 13th, 2023 at 6:59 PM ^
I have no words
February 13th, 2023 at 7:13 PM ^
Warning to you all, as bad as you think it could be, it’s way worse.
It has become clear that any type of organization that is trusted with the care of minors or otherwise vulnerable people (Catholic Church, prisons, boarding schools etc) or holds significant power over a population (Robert Anderson, OSU wresting) needs radical transparency and and some sort of our side, independent monitoring system
February 13th, 2023 at 7:19 PM ^
it goes higher than juniors - google “brad aldrich blackhawks scandal.”
i’ll never understand it.
February 14th, 2023 at 12:01 AM ^
And it’s been going on for decades and decades. I read Gretzky’s autobiography when it came out in the early 90’s and he talked about the genital shaving type hazing… of course he jokes about it and in the 80/90s it was just written off as boys being boys behavior. It was a scene in the 80’s Rob Lowe/Patrick Swayze hockey movie, Youngblood.
It doesn’t take much to go from sexual assault like stripping players naked and shaving them to some of the more heinous events described… as normalization leads to escalating abuse. It’s also an environment primed for criminal sexual abusers to exploit… such as happened with Theo Fleury, Sheldon Kennedy and many others.
Scrub every level of hockey clean and prosecute any adult who knowingly ignored or participated in said abuse while a coach/gm/trainer etc… doesn’t matter if they are now an NHL coach/GM… rip them out root and all.
February 13th, 2023 at 7:23 PM ^
I got about halfway through that and gave up. Everyone involved should be locked up and not allowed to see the outside until they're old, withered bags of bones.
February 13th, 2023 at 7:30 PM ^
I haven't read it, but it's horrendous that this is still going on. Some of you may remember Sheldon Kennedy, drafted by the Red Wings in 1988, who revealed in the mid 90s that he had been sexually abused by his WHL coach.
February 13th, 2023 at 7:57 PM ^
Another tragedy was what happened to Theo Fleury. One of the most exciting hockey players I ever saw. The abuse perpetrated on him as a young player was suppressed for so long that it finally cracked into alcoholism, drug abuse, violence, and suicidal ideation.
I am not promoting this, but if it came to be that we publicly executed child sexual abusers...I’m not sure I would have an objection to it.
February 13th, 2023 at 7:55 PM ^
How do you say to yourself “yeah, let’s shove this hockey stick in this dude” and somehow think that would be funny? You can literally kill someone doing something like that.
February 13th, 2023 at 7:56 PM ^
Man, I hate to be that guy (and by no means do I condone this behavior), but this is in no way a new development. Hockey players and wrestlers, generally speaking, are among the worst offenders where this nonsense is concerned. It's truly alarming, and you see it start at the high school level.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:28 PM ^
This is all so ironic. I have a friend of a friend that played hockey as high as the AHL and on one occasion that I got to hang out with him, he talked about it. Not a lot of details but he’d tell you there’s no more toxic place in any sport than a hockey locker room. We asked for stories and he wouldn’t elaborate, but he did once use the term “violently homoerotic”.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:55 PM ^
Lacrosse is up there in some regards. All of this unacceptable in every situation, we shouldn't be able to casually talk about "what's the most toxic/abusive/racist/etc. sport?" It's so disheartening and disgusting.
Rampant abuse classified as "hazing" in ice hockey, wrestling, and/or lacrosse. The catholic church scandal. Even school shootings.
To borrow a term from the article, it's all so sad and "barbaric."
February 14th, 2023 at 7:36 AM ^
Holy shit. I had no idea that as I wrote this, there was a school shooting at MSU and they had just gone into lockdown 20 minutes earlier.
February 13th, 2023 at 7:57 PM ^
Anyone who's played sports at some level has potentially been exposed to hazing. And the word itself takes on a meaning, based on what you've actually seen/experienced. My highest level was HS basketball, and fortunately I wasn't exposed to really any hazing at all. Mostly just pranks (atomic situps) and snapping a wet towel in the locker room.
This is not hazing, it's hardcore institutional/systemic torture. Call it what it is, truly horrendous.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:57 PM ^
Thank you!
The people in this thread passing this off as a "boys being boys type of hazing that is ultimately inevitable when you have this alpha power dynamic - even though it's wrong" are disgusting.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:03 PM ^
The problem with humanity is the human part.
February 13th, 2023 at 8:17 PM ^
I will always give the benefit of the doubt that this is not true or seriously exaggerated. The human decency in me HOPES this is not true or seriously exaggerated. Because if this is all true (and sworn statements carry a lot of weight), it is quite simply the worst scandal I've ever read in sports. If it happens in Canada, it could happen here in the states, whether it by travel leagues for high schoolers or high school / college teams. All of hockey needs to be examined.
And the same thing I say with any hazing incident. What good does this do? How does what is described here make better players, better teammates, better team cohesion? When I hear about hazing in fraternities, I always ask how the described actions lead to a better brotherhood, because I see no way it can. I was in a fraternity and at no point was anything even resembling hazing allowed.
I am sickened. Embarrased to be of the same race of creature that can allow this to happen to anyone, worse of all to young people.